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JackMan

Best 1/72 Mig-21 kit

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I see that Luckymodel is having a sale & their 1/72 Mig kits caught my eye....

From googling the topic, I gather that the Zvezda Mig-21 "BIS" & "PFM" are the best & most popular kits for their respective versions ( ie Bis & PFM). But what about the "MF" version? Did Zvezda ever make that one? If not what is out there for this version?

Also, can the Zvezda PFM

http://www.rumodelism.com/sunduk/obz106.shtml

be made into an Indian Tiger "PF" ( I have the Fujimi decals for it)

http://www.toremmodellismo.it/images/MIEI%20KIT/AEREI/FUJIMI/123_2341.JPG

:cheers:

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Another qn..

Apart from the single piece canopy, was the Mig-21FL externally very different from the PF/PFM?

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The Fujimi has very nice features (eg panel lines, instrument panels, pilot, etc) but they are dimensionally not very accurate, especially the forward part near the nose. Also, their MF kit is actually a Bis that has been mislabeled as an MF.

http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=95147

Morever, they are expensive & certain versions are not that easy to get hold of.

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The FL is simply the export (third world) designation for the PF. No visible external difference.

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Another qn..

Apart from the single piece canopy, was the Mig-21FL externally very different from the PF/PFM?

According to THIS SITE, the FL and PFM had a fin with a wider chord than the PF had (the PF fin looks like that of a MiG-21F-13).

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But what about the "MF" version? Did Zvezda ever make that one? If not what is out there for this version?

Zvezda haven't released an MF, yet. Until they do, you could try mating the QuickBoost spine to their bis.

As Jackman said, the Fujimi FIshbeds are great *kits*, but not great representations of the real thing.

HTH,

Andre

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Zvezda haven't released an MF, yet. Until they do, you could try mating the QuickBoost spine to their bis.

I don't have the Quickboost spine but I don't see what would be the point of doing this: the rear of the Fujimi canopy is a lot wider than the Zvezda canopy so some sanding will be required. I'm sure that other things will make the adaptation a bit painful. And the Quickboost set has to be innaccurate since the Fujimi kit is inaccurate. I'd rather fill up the Zvezda kit spine with Milliput and reshape the bis spine.

Edited by Laurent

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According to THIS SITE, the FL and PFM had a fin with a wider chord than the PF had (the PF fin looks like that of a MiG-21F-13).

FLs could use the GP-9 gun pod while the regular PFs couldn't AFAIK

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Only the very early batches of PFs had the narrow chord fin. The majority produced had the wide chord fin.

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Only the very early batches of PFs had the narrow chord fin. The majority produced had the wide chord fin.

What ?!?! Perhaps there's a misunderstanding in what is meant by narrow/wide chord fin. Please go on airliners.net and search "mig-21 pf". The ones on the first page (I didn't check the other pages) have a narrow chord fin. PFM, FL, MF, etc had a wide chord fin.

I don't think there's a trace of wide chord fin PF here too: http://airwar.ru/enc...er/mig21pf.html

Edited by Laurent

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I did like the Fujimi kit (family of MiG-21 kits) with all its scale problems (after all even Eduard is not so keen on keeping to a particular scale, like on their Me-109) and also the original KP kit. Of course they were good (the best) in their own time, some 20 and 30 years ago respectively. Not any longer. Most of the Russian kits of the MiG-21 are based in part or almost completely on the KP kit. I would not invest in them. Lets see if Eduard makes a down scale of the 48th kit to 72nd. Then I would say that will be the best MiG-21S/SM/MF and SMT kits around! As to the MiG-21 bis kit I think most of you know my opinion. . .

Best regards

Gabor

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Most of the Russian kits of the MiG-21 are based in part or almost completely on the KP kit.

Strictly speaking I believe that there was only one "KP inspired" Russian MiG-21 kit: the Mir SMT kit. The Innex and ZTS Plastyk kits are Polish, the Condor kits are Ukrainian. The Innex isn't bad (if the nose cone is relocated) and the Condor bis is more accurate (in shape) than the KP.

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Like, wow, man. I did a search & I've been reading the various threads about the various Mig variants & it really made my head hurt & started to give me hallucinations...

129157558613824302.gif

Ok, I ordered the Zvezda Bis from Luckymodel but not the PFM ('cos I'm A CHEAPSKATE economically prudent and the PFM wasn't on sale ani_Mumbly.gif )

But will definitely pick up a Zvezda PFM later if I can find it at a cheaper price. As for the MF, looks like KP or something else is the way to go. I'm not in a hurry so I can wait. Just curious though, which brand is the most popular Mig-21MF...KP?

According to THIS SITE, the FL and PFM had a fin with a wider chord than the PF had (the PF fin looks like that of a MiG-21F-13).

I didn't know what a chord was & so I had to look it up. It means the length from the leading edge (front) to the trailing edge (back) of the fin. I should have been paying attention to my geometry teacher instead of staring at her legs...

I think you could be right, Moritz. These Indian FLs look like they have the wider chord:

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Fighters/MiG21FL/MiG-21c.jpg.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Fighters/MiG21FL/MiG-21x1.jpg.html

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Images/Current/Fighters/MiG21FL/MiG-21n1.jpg.html

Only the very early batches of PFs had the narrow chord fin. The majority produced had the wide chord fin.

I believe the Indians had a small batch of early PFs ( less than 10 , I think I read somewhere) which I think they later modified with wider chords ( and the addition of braking chute containers). Maybe that's why the Fujimi boxing says Mig-21PF (LATER) and shows a chute container.

http://www.toremmodellismo.it/images/MIEI%20KIT/AEREI/FUJIMI/123_2341.JPG

But I feel silly judging the accuracy of a Mig variant from a boxtop painting :lol: Tho', thinking about it, it does seem feasible given that during that time frame the Indians flew large numbers of the FL & could have modified those few PFs into PFs with wider chords & brake chute containers while still retaining the PF's single piece canopy.

Can't wait to get my hands on the Zvezda Bis since this will be my first one & I can finally see for myself how good/bad it is.

Edited by JackMan

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.. The Innex and ZTS Plastyk kits are Polish, the Condor kits are Ukrainian. The Innex isn't bad (if the nose cone is relocated) ..

I've never heard of Innex before so I googled it & found these:

http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae258/MEGATR0Ni/INNEX%20MIG-21%20PF%20PFM/

The fin parts seem to jibe with what Moritz wrote. The PFM fin

http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae258/MEGATR0Ni/INNEX%20MIG-21%20PF%20PFM/?action=view&current=015.jpg

vs the PF fin:

http://s977.photobucket.com/albums/ae258/MEGATR0Ni/INNEX%20MIG-21%20PF%20PFM/?action=view&current=05.jpg

I do find it strange though that they both have the single piece canopy.

So I guess if I were to make a MIG-21FL I could just get the Innex PFM (because of the single piece canopy + wider fin) or get the Zvezda PFM and sand/polish away the forward canopy framing to make it look like single piece.

Ow, my head hurts again.... :wacko:

Edited by JackMan

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Ow, my head hurts again.... :wacko:

I don't know if this will ease the pain or make it worse:

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/114/Draw/index.htm

This page includes a total of 12 sets of MiG-21 (scroll down to Микоян,Гуревич МиГ-21)

drawings:

http://www.airwar.ru/other/draw_fn.html

It helps if you know a bit of Cyrillic text; if not, this may help:

МиГ-21 = MiG-21

МФ = MF

ПД = PD

ПФ = PF

ПФМ = PFM

Р = R

Ф-13 = F-13

УМ = UM

I can't testify to the accuracy of any of these; I like the MiG-21, but I'm no expert. I leave that to Laurent! :D

John

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I believe the Indians had a small batch of early PFs ( less than 10 , I think I read somewhere) which I think they later modified with wider chords ( and the addition of braking chute containers).

I don't believe that India ever had PFs (I'd like to be proven wrong). They had a few FLs built in USSR then they started building the FL themselves. The FL version was intended to non-communist customers unlike the PF.

Ow, my head hurts again.... :wacko:

Don't even try to understand the development of the PFS version...

So I guess if I were to make a MIG-21FL I could just get the Innex PFM (because of the single piece canopy + wider fin) or get the Zvezda PFM and sand/polish away the forward canopy framing to make it look like single piece.

The Innex PFM is in fact an FL. Single piece canopy + Fowler flaps (underwing flap actuator coaming is next to the flap, not on the middle of it as it's the case with a blown flap)

innexPfmMainSprue1b.jpg.JPG

Jadar sells the Innex kits: http://www.jadarhobb...facturers_id=21

There's a built Innex kit in the gallery: http://www.arcair.co...1_Leung/00.shtm ... notice the nose cone that doesn't stick out enough

Another (probably better) possibility would be to find a Bilek MiG-21PFM kit (OOP but pretty easy to find AFAIK). It is also an FL. I've built it in a previous life (no kids, free time to do "serious" modelling): http://fancherello.f...s/mig21pfm.html (please don't mind the presence of the GP-9 pod and the inaccurate scheme... I didn't know much about the MiG-21 in these days)

Edited by Laurent

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I don't know if this will ease the pain or make it worse:

http://www.wunderwaf.../Draw/index.htm

Drawings from Squadron, 4+, ACE & M-Hobby. Nice collection thanks for the link ! If accuracy is in mind, few of the drawings look good.

This page includes a total of 12 sets of MiG-21 (scroll down to Микоян,Гуревич МиГ-21)

drawings:

http://www.airwar.ru...er/draw_fn.html

They've selected the best drawings apparently. Good !

I like the MiG-21, but I'm no expert. I leave that to Laurent! :D

I'm not expert either. Guys like Gabor, Robert S, Holger Müller (mig-21.de webmaster) are.

Edited by Laurent

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I don't know if this will ease the pain or make it worse:

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/114/Draw/index.htm

It helps if you know a bit of Cyrillic text; if not, this may help:

МиГ-21 = MiG-21

МФ = MF

ПД = PD

ПФ = PF

ПФМ = PFM

Р = R

Ф-13 = F-13

УМ = UM

Good stuff, John! Most helpful! On that note, can I know what is that Mig at the bottom

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/114/Draw/12.jpg

From your Cyrillic translation, I gather that the one on top is a 'MF'.

And from this drawing (if I read it correctly as ПФ = PF)

http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Magazine/AirWar/114/Draw/05.jpg

am I correct in saying that it seems the 'PF' had both short & wide chord fin?

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I don't believe that India ever had PFs (I'd like to be proven wrong). They had a few FLs built in USSR then they started building the FL themselves. The FL version was intended to non-communist customers unlike the PF.

I think they may have had small numbers of the PF & I know for a fact that they also had the F-13 'cos I've seen a B&W picture of one inflight & with either overall NMF or aluminum finish. This person quotes an AFM (Air Forces Monthly) magazine article & it states they had about 6 of the PF & 6 of the F-13:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/indian-defence/22788-indian-migs.html

Another article online states they had 2 of the PF:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikoyan-Gurevich_MiG-21_operators#.C2.A0India

And it seems at least 2 PFs from 28 Sqn had an encounter with Pakistani Sabres (scroll down to page 3)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/56784264/IAF-Combat-Kills-During-1965-India-Pakistan-War

To be honest though, without looking at the fin chord, I can't really tell which of the Indian ones are PF & which are FL...esp if the Indians had modded their PFs with the wider chord fin & brake chute...

The Innex PFM is in fact an FL. Single piece canopy + Fowler flaps (underwing flap actuator coaming is next to the flap, not on the middle of it as it's the case with a blown flap)

Aha! So Fujimi isn't the only ones who mislabel their Migs. And thanks for the visual illustration of the flap actuator differences. Most helpful :thumbsup:

Another (probably better) possibility would be to find a Bilek MiG-21PFM kit (OOP but pretty easy to find AFAIK). It is also an FL. I've built it in a previous life (no kids, free time to do "serious" modelling): http://fancherello.f...s/mig21pfm.html

Hmm, so judging by the 2 piece vs 1 piece canopy, Bilek too labelled an FL as an PFM? Btw, why do you say the scheme is inaccurate? I thought they followed the earlier Mig-15 & Mig-19 demo teams of red on top & silver bottom.

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And from this drawing (if I read it correctly as ПФ = PF)

http://www.wunderwaf...114/Draw/05.jpg

am I correct in saying that it seems the 'PF' had both short & wide chord fin?

This scan comes from a Russian book that includes drawings coming from the Squadron "in Action" book. If you have the Squadron book, look at page 22. Pretty familiar right ? I wouldn't trust the Squadron book. The first fin shown is probably the one of a prototype (I'll call it the very short chord fin), the second is a late PFS/FL/PFM/etc fin. 04.jpg shows the regular production short chord fin.

I think they may have had small numbers of the PF & I know for a fact that they also had the F-13 'cos I've seen a B&W picture of one inflight & with either overall NMF or aluminum finish. This person quotes an AFM (Air Forces Monthly) magazine article & it states they had about 6 of the PF & 6 of the F-13:

http://www.defence.p...ndian-migs.html

Another article online states they had 2 of the PF:

http://en.wikipedia....ors#.C2.A0India

And it seems at least 2 PFs from 28 Sqn had an encounter with Pakistani Sabres (scroll down to page 3)

http://www.scribd.co...ia-Pakistan-War

Perhaps but frankly, given the difficulties that people have correctly identifying 2nd generation Fisheds, I'd take what is said very cautiously. I'd love to see photographs of those so-called PFs.

To be honest though, without looking at the fin chord, I can't really tell which of the Indian ones are PF & which are FL...esp if the Indians had modded their PFs with the wider chord fin & brake chute...

The only way would be if there was a GP-9 gun pod (but beware of exceptions: I've seen a photograph of a Polish PF with a GP-9 pod on a Polish forum). I'm pretty sure that the fin moding thing is pure nonesense.

Hmm, so judging by the 2 piece vs 1 piece canopy, Bilek too labelled an FL as an PFM? Btw, why do you say the scheme is inaccurate?

I don't remember if it was the Bilek painting instruction sheet that was wrong or what I understood of it. There's a pic of the real thing here: http://s362974870.on...dpost&p=1990404

Edit: it's the Bilek painting instructions that are wrong because they based the markings on a wrong Squadron book profile.

Edited by Laurent

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This scan comes from a Russian book that includes drawings coming from the Squadron "in Action" book.... I wouldn't trust the Squadron book. The first fin shown is probably the one of a prototype (I'll call it the very short chord fin), the second is a late PFS/FL/PFM/etc fin.

...Perhaps but frankly, given the difficulties that people have correctly identifying 2nd generation Fisheds, I'd take what is said very cautiously..

Great-calamity-kittens.jpg

I don't remember if it was the Bilek painting instruction sheet that was wrong or what I understood of it. There's a pic of the real thing here: http://s362974870.on...dpost&p=1990404

Edit: it's the Bilek painting instructions that are wrong because they based the markings on a wrong Squadron book profile.

Ah, I see. So the canopy & spine is NMF/Silver. Too bad. I like the Bilek version better. It's more in line with the earlier Mig-15/17/19 demo teams..

Thanks, Laurent! :thumbsup:

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I'm not expert either. Guys like Gabor, Robert S, Holger Müller (mig-21.de webmaster) are.

You're certainly an expert by my standards! And my apologies to Gabor and Robert for overlooking them. I'll certainly check out the mig-21.de site the next time I want MiG-21 information - thanks for the link!

John

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What about the two seaters?, any good option?

I don't know about the accuracy of the kits but Bilek did a U/UM (recessed panel lines, average detail level but Extratech made PE for the kit) and Condor did a UM (scale recessed panel lines, very poor detail level).

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