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1/32 Tamiya P-51D- Kicked up a notch


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Wow Chuck, not only your builds are off the chart with all the info, and the addition of photo's as references really adds to your already knowledge based skill set. I just love your work, it just speaks for itself on so many levels. As always, keep up the great work and a super fast recovery after surgery.

Tonal

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Thanks Guys- and a special thanks to the two Johns- zaxos345 and JohnS for all the great detail pics of the gunbay emailed or PM'd to me. They sure came in handy!

Before I load up the gun bay with Eduard PE parts, I need to get those Aires guns to fit properly. They are thicker and slightly longer than the kit guns, but compared to pics of the real deal, better than the kit guns anyway. After some careful measurement forward, aft and side to side, this is where I wound up with plastic surgery, with the unaltered gun rack on the right. The front circular pin needs to be cut down (not completely) and the rear detail cut out, because it interferes with the gun detail that replicates what is cut out anyway. The front hole will be filled with CA glue so that after painting, it will disappear....

Gunbay1.jpg

Dry fitting them into the gun bay shows how it will be cemented in, with the front lug on the bottom of the gun sitting on the cut off pin and the rear lug parked in the new square hole at the back. The gun barrels are dead center within the front circular holes of the kit PE part. Perfect! I did, however, abandon my plans to have the gun barrels go all the way to the front leading edge of the wing. The front of the barrels have a hole that's too big, while the front kit part, with a few small holes drilled into it, will look a lot better. Note some Eduard PE on the bottom behind the guns....

Gunbay2.jpg

BTW, as mentioned earlier, I should have TWO kits of these Aires guns, because there is only 4 of them and I need six. Trying to buy replacements has been really tough, no doubt because some of you guys scooped up all the North American supply after reading my earlier posts! Anyway, I've got some coming from Hannants in jolly old England, which usually doesn't take too long. Good thing they aren't holding me up much.

Now a "walk-around" of all the Eduard PE parts, or at least most of them. This shot shows the outboard wall PE with a circular cut-out and a few more parts, so I cut out the plastic behind the circle like the real deal, much like I did in the big oval of the rear wheel assembly. There's more to add like pull handles and such just forward of the circle on that raised panel, but I'm leaving them off until the guns are cemented in, because I'll just break them off if I do. This angle shows where the guns mount to the floor from the other side as well. All those puttied in rivets and panel lines still make me cry! :crying: I also filled in the big hole where the bullets are stored with CA glue....

Gunbay3.jpg

The rear wall, which is where things got a little tricky. First of all, the part is too tall and the other parts that are supposed to stick to it (Parts 45-50), are as well. Further, I didn't really see what this detail was supposed to be in pics of a real gun bay, so I left them off. The metal plate you see, needed to be trimmed at the thicker inboard side and was cemented to the wing itself for ease of handling and assembly...

Gunbay4.jpg

Before I move on to further details, this is what you get with only kit parts. Although the guns haven't been cleaned up and it's not painted yet, it's still fairly boring....

Gunbay5.jpg

Here's the first layer of the Eduard parts in the ammunition rack, which just slips in with an upper tray for the bullets to the center gun. I looks like I need to get rid of some fluff on that clip on the right side of the tray. Also, NOTHING is cemented in yet, so it was really hard to stage these pics with everything falling over, etc., so if things look a little wonky here and there, they will look a lot better after painting and final assembly.

Gunbay6.jpg

The next layer is the ammo for the center gun, with ammo for the outer gun (on the right) presumably beneath it where you can't see it. Here is where I'm a bit torn. While I love most of the Eduard PE for this gun bay, the bullets are a little hokey when viewed up close like in these pics. From a foot away, they look pretty good, so maybe they're OK. What do you guys think? Are there 1/32 50 cal. replacements somewhere I could use instead?

Thankfully the Aires guns have a removable breech, so that I could cut and trim a wide enough gap in the side of the gun for the shell belt assembly. Also, I will join the shell belts during final assembly, so that that gap between them is no longer present.

Gunbay7.jpg

The next layer to the inner gun, which is curved forward. I will straighten all those belt "teeth" once the guns are cemented in....

Gunbay8.jpg

Now the really cool stuff- Gun Bay Panels! These panels are really detailed and take a long time to assemble, but the results are really stunning. Unfortunately, they don't replace the kit doors because they have accurate hinges and tabs that slip into the wing, which won't work on this kit at this scale. If you cut the hinges off they would fit, but since they are normally just laying on top of the wing when the gun bay is loaded, they are perfect and a lot better than the one piece kit part....

Gunbay9.jpg

Here's a close-up of the main hinged door with loading diagram. This is hard to photograph with all the reflection off the bare metal, but most of the detail shows fairly well. Note the small notch I cut out on the right side of the hinge on the bottom. More on that later...

Gunbay10.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3
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The ammo door. I can hardly wait to see how these will look with paint on them.

Gunbay14.jpg

The reason I made the notch in the hinge of the main door was because this panel is not normally removed, but resting in the up position with a rod support. To replicate this, I used another very thin sewing pin which was bent and placed into a new hole in the side of the gun bay. The lip that holds the kit gun door is in the way, however, so I compromising and cut a notch out so that the rod could fit against the side wall and slid into the kit part, with the hinge resting on the far side panel ledge. I left the placard off the face because I want to glue it on after painting...

Gunbay11.jpg

There are two prominent handles that should be on the back of this door sticking straight up, but I left them off as well to avoid breakage until the end.

Gunbay12.jpg

I did all this on BOTH gun bays, to give me options in the future for both bays to be open, maybe just one, etc. I have everything removable so that the kit doors will sit flush if I want a smooth wing instead. I had to bend the kit plastic a bit, but the fit is really good, just like the rest of this kit...

Gunbay13.jpg

Edited by chuck540z3
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The P-51 in the pic is an early Mustang, probably A or B. The tubes are actually for the 2 50cal guns, either blast or cooling tubes but most likely they discovered they weren’t needed and left off subsequent airframes. The P-51A/B/C’s had only 2 .50cal per wing and since the wings were thin, the guns had to be put in an angle as seen in this pic:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/P-51B_100FS_332FG_Italy_1944.jpg

While the P-51D had thicker wings which allowed room for another gun:

http://www.alfagene.net/photogallery/photoDay10/P51Guns.jpg

Jari

That's most likely a B/C in the picture, given that Mustang in the back is a B/C and the identity of the man servicing it, the Tuskeegee Airmen never operated A's as far as I'm aware.

The P-51D wing was NOT thicker, the gun mounting was revised to allow vertical mounting of the guns to prevent the jamming issues that the A/B/C had, which also provided room for the installation of a 3rd wing gun (which was not new, the Mustang Mk.1 had 3 wing guns as well, albeit 2 .303's and a single .50 in a completely different installation).

it is a picture of a A-36 Apache, without the R&R Engine not a totally Mustang :rolleyes:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_A-36_Apache

If you're referring to the picture above your post, which I have quoted, it's visibly not an A-36 Apache since there's no speed brakes on the wing, which is the defining difference between an A-36 and any other Mustang (otherwise an Apache is simply a mix of Mustang Mk.1 and P-51A features, retaining the Mk.1 nose guns while otherwise being a P-51A with Dive Brakes).

The aircraft in the back is a P-51B or P-51C of the 332nd FG (it clearly has the Merlin nose and the 332nd only operated Merlin Mustangs anyways) and the airman servicing the foreground aircraft makes it likely that it also is a P-51B/C of the 332nd FG, as the only 4-gun Mustangs they operated were B/C's

Edited by mawz
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That's most likely a B/C in the picture, given that Mustang in the back is a B/C and the identity of the man servicing it, the Tuskeegee Airmen never operated A's as far as I'm aware.

The P-51D wing was NOT thicker, the gun mounting was revised to allow vertical mounting of the guns to prevent the jamming issues that the A/B/C had, which also provided room for the installation of a 3rd wing gun (which was not new, the Mustang Mk.1 had 3 wing guns as well, albeit 2 .303's and a single .50 in a completely different installation).

If you're referring to the picture above your post, which I have quoted, it's visibly not an A-36 Apache since there's no speed brakes on the wing, which is the defining difference between an A-36 and any other Mustang (otherwise an Apache is simply a mix of Mustang Mk.1 and P-51A features, retaining the Mk.1 nose guns while otherwise being a P-51A with Dive Brakes).

The aircraft in the back is a P-51B or P-51C of the 332nd FG (it clearly has the Merlin nose and the 332nd only operated Merlin Mustangs anyways) and the airman servicing the foreground aircraft makes it likely that it also is a P-51B/C of the 332nd FG, as the only 4-gun Mustangs they operated were B/C's

Ummmmmm, I think we already know what it is....

This is a P-51 / NA-91 (Mustang Mk.IA in RAF service).

Edited by chuck540z3
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Looks great Chuck!

Maybe it's just how they look in the photos, but I like the look of the the kit ammo belts

Gunbay5.jpg

over the PE ones.

Gunbay8.jpg

The PE shell casings just don't look realistic to me.

I wonder if 1/35 parts could be substituted? There's a lot of 1/35 .50 cal. military kits out there.

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Looks great Chuck!

Maybe it's just how they look in the photos, but I like the look of the the kit ammo belts

over the PE ones.

The PE shell casings just don't look realistic to me.

I wonder if 1/35 parts could be substituted? There's a lot of 1/35 .50 cal. military kits out there.

Me too and good question. Anybody know of a 50 cal. shell belt in 1/32 (maybe 1/35) that could replace these weird looking PE ones? I do know this, it would look a lot better with NO shells at all than to continue using these Eduard ones. The feed mechanism still looks good with no shells inside and I'm sure P-51D's had no bullets when doing maintenance for safety reasons. With no bullets in the way, you can then see the nice detail that's underneath, which is fairly accurate.

For some of you are new to this hobby or just getting back into it like my friend Bud, Here’s a little tutorial on how to handle photo-etch brass and other metal. I’m no expert on the subject, but I’m making less mistakes than I used to and I’ve made just about every mistake possible! :bandhead2:/> For the more experienced modelers out there, do you have any tips to share?

I'll call this, the "How to Screw Up Less Photo-etch Tutorial". Here is what you need to get going.

--Cutting mat. This provides a surface for cutting the parts off the tree using a #11 knife.

--#11 knife. I have 2 #11 knives as my disposal, one that’s super sharp and the other for cutting PE brass. When the sharp one gets a bit dull, I rotate it to be my PE knife.

--Scissors. These need to be super hard and nice and sharp to handle cutting brass without getting dull. A cheap pair doesn’t cut it (pun intended).

--Hold and Fold (or similar) tool. This tool is made specifically to “hold and fold” PE brass. You don’t need it on many small PE parts that need folding, but for parts longer than an inch, I find it invaluable.

--Microbrushes. You sometimes need fluffy new ones for larger applications of CA glue, but they are just as useful with the brush end ripped off, leaving a toothpick-like end. This is what I use the most for all glue applications. You also need them once in a while to remove CA glue with CA glue de-bonder and I use one soaked in CA glue accelerator when required.

--Tweezers. You need regular tweezers for sure, but the self-locking kind are very handy when you need a second set of hands to hold parts together.

--Cyanoacrylate or “CA” glue is mandatory for adhering metal parts to plastic or metal to metal. It comes in thin, medium and thick viscosities, but I only buy the thin stuff because it dries out over time, creating medium viscosity out of thin, thick out of medium and garbage out of thick. By the time my thin bottle is half gone, it’s medium viscosity and so I buy another bottle of thin. No more waste. I’ve heard it keeps better in the fridge, but I don’t really care, because I need thicker viscosities now and then anyway.

--Small piece of cardboard. To apply CA glue you need a source other than the bottle. A small piece of cardboard (or similar) provides a cheap throw-away location for a drop or two of glue.

--Now your two best friends when using CA glue on PE: CA glue accelerator and CA glue de-bonder. Many times you need the glue to dry fast, while other times you need to clean up a mess. I try not to use the accelerator very much, because it makes the glue crinkle and a bit more brittle when it dries, but sometimes it is absolutely necessary. The de-bonder is a life-saver, because you WILL make a mess and it cleans up glue spills easily, even hours old.

Photo-etch1.jpg

Once you get your materials together, cut off the PE part from the brass tree by pushing the #11 knife against the brass bits that join it in place against the cutting mat. DON’T try to cut it off the tree on the very edges of the part, but away from the part as much as possible. If you try to cut close, you can damage the part and the removal of the stubs is harder to do.

With the part off the tree, use the sharp scissors to cut off all the stubs and bits that remain. With practise, you can get the part blemish-free with a razor sharp edge. If the part needs alteration, scissors are far better than a knife.

If the part needs to be folded, this is where the Hold and Fold tool comes in very handy. The tool holds the part in a variety of different toes that stick out from the tool, so that you can use a razor blade to bend the part at angles up to about 120 degrees with each fold. Using this tool, the entire fold line is bent at the same time and the same angle, which you can’t do by bending it on other surfaces. For really small parts, a pair of tweezers works best to get the bends and angles you need.

Now it’s time to glue the part. For most applications, I put a few drops of glue on a piece of cardboard, dip a microbrush stub (with the brush head off) into the glue, then apply a thin bead of glue to where the part is supposed to go. If you put glue on the part first, you run the risk of it smearing other areas as you put it in place. I usually use tweezers and a steady hand to apply the part, but you need to move quickly before the glue dries. The thinner the glue, the faster it dries. Conversely, a glue with a medium viscosity will give you a bit more time to move the part around before it sets, but it also squishes out from under the part more as the part is pushed down. Not a problem! With a microbrush soaked in CA glue de-bonder, wipe the area surrounding the part where you don’t want any glue to show. Don’t have too much de-bonder on the brush, however, or it will slip under the part and erode the glue where you do want it. Just enough de-bonder to keep it damp will do. After several applications of de-bonder, you will likely have to replace the brush as it gets hard with glue and loses its absorbency. Just rip the head off the old brush and you have another glue applicator.

If you need the glue to set very quickly, because holding the parts together is tricky or very difficult, soak another microbrush in CA glue accelerator and apply it NEAR the glue. This time you DO want it to soak the glued area, but without applying the accelerator to the glue directly. Direct application can make a mess, because glue is quickly drying at different times and the applicator might actually get stuck to the glue and the part. Indirect application is the key and even accelerator fumes in the general area will speed up the drying process.

Now some advice on watching glue dry while you apply the part. With very thin CA glue, you have almost no time to move the part around, so take extra care to get the placement correct the first time. You may have a second, possibly two, to move the part around, but when it sets, you’re done. If you don’t like how things look, rip the part off, scratch off the old glue with your #11 knife or debonder and try again. If it appears that you have extra time moving things around, even with slower drying medium viscosity glue, there’s a very high chance that you missed the “sweet spot” and your part will eventually fall off. It might look OK, but it’s very likely that only about 25% or less of the glue has actually bonded the parts together. Again, if you suspect this, rip it off and do it over.

Other CA glue tips:

1) CA glue gets harder over time as it cures. This is why it`s a great filler when it has dried for less than an hour, because it sands so easily. After a few days of drying time, not so much!

2) If your PE part needs strength, like where the door support above attaches to the door, let it dry for at least a day before you attempt to stress it.

3) CA glue dries almost clear if you let it dry naturally, but it can look like porous lava if you use accelerator on it. Try to let it dry on its own.

4) Since CA glue usually dries fairly shiny, even if it`s clear, a little bit of dull coat will hide it.

5) Water is an enemy of CA glue, which breaks down its bond. Keep moisture away, including saliva, Windex, whatever while you glue parts. A whitish dusting around CA glue indicates that moisture was likely present.

6) I have found that a large glob of CA glue will wrinkle or even crack plastic. This is likely due to the differential drying time of the surface of the glue against the plastic and the subsequent shrinkage of the core of the glue blob, which might even take days to fully dry. I still use thick globs of CA glue when required to strengthen joins, especially from behind, but I spread it out more so that it can dry more evenly.

7) Glue that thickens over time can be rejuvenated with a small amount of new thin glue mixed in. Even 10% new glue will dramatically thin a bottle of thick stuff.

One last tip concerning de-bonder and glue accelerator. Both of these solvents eat paint, so always try to glue PE or other parts that require CA glue to bare plastic. Sometimes this is unavoidable, so you need to scratch the paint off the surface to be glued and be extra careful.

Hope this helps somebody out there! :D

Edited by chuck540z3
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Just Googling around there are some 1/35th scale .50 cal belts out there but mainly for armour so you only get about 20 round belts. Of course you can have your P-51D just returned from a mission with the ammo trays almost empty, just a few rounds leftover.

Here is a video how one guy put a 1/35 .50cal belt together:

Jari

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Hey Chuck,

I thought it was this thread or it might have been the "Moonbeam" build but on one of them someone had a link to an Armour aftermarket company that had individual linked brass .50 cal in 1/35th scale. I remember going to the site and thinking "OMG, I wonder how many I would have to link together for the P-51"? But they were of course hugely realistic looking, since they were individual rounds and seperate PE links. I'm not sure I would want to tackle that or not. Is there a way to use the kit bullets with the Eduard's PE?

Stephen

Edited by stephencraig
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Chuck if you plan to go with the almost empty ammo trays there is this:

http://hobbystuffdepot.com/Voyagermodel-VBS0301-135-M2HB-Machine-Gun-Ammo-Box-Set-P1736246.aspx

plus Hobbystuff Depot happens to be in Calgary which should give you a reason to go out. :D

Here is a review of the set:

http://www.perthmilitarymodelling.com/reviews/vehicles/voyager/vm_vbs0301.html

Jari

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Chuck, Thank you for taking the time and trouble to create a PE and CA glue tutorial! I can tell you I really appreciate it (and I am sure other relatively inexperienced modelers do as well) in that it gives us an opportunity to create a quality build without having to cope with unnessary disasters, time and money wasted not to mention acute frustration. Many thanks.

As an aside, for all the great Eduard PE for this kit, The .50 cal. rounds are not up to par. I don't have any solutions that haven't been mentioned, but I know you well enough to say if you use them you will be tearing them out later! :bandhead2: :bandhead2:

Thanks again for all your help...

Bud

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Chuck, Thank you for taking the time and trouble to create a PE and CA glue tutorial! I can tell you I really appreciate it (and I am sure other relatively inexperienced modelers do as well) in that it gives us an opportunity to create a quality build without having to cope with unnessary disasters, time and money wasted not to mention acute frustration. Many thanks.

As an aside, for all the great Eduard PE for this kit, The .50 cal. rounds are not up to par. I don't have any solutions that haven't been mentioned, but I know you well enough to say if you use them you will be tearing them out later! :bandhead2:

Thanks again for all your help...

Bud

Thanks for the input and suggestions Guys!

Bud, consider the Eduard shell belts GONE! I ripped them out about 2 hours ago and tried to stage a "Plan B" pic with only the shell trays and shell feeders to the guns. I am certain they will look great and much better than the kit parts, but for the life of me I can't assemble 3 wonky guns, 3 wonky gun breeches and 2 wonky shell feeders in a dry fit. Every time I get close, everything falls down like a stack of cards. I need GLUE to hold stuff together!! You guys will just have to trust me on this one. They WILL look better than the pics above!

Which reminds me of a tip I forgot above about Eduard PE kits. I have never used every part of an Eduard PE kit, mostly because not all Eduard PE parts are better than the kit parts. A good example is the tiny and thin radar and AOA probes on a fighter jet supplied by Eduard. While fairly accurate and more to scale over the kit parts, these super fragile parts are destined to be knocked off by just looking at them, so when you install every PE part ask yourself, "Will this help or hurt the build"? Most times the answer is yes, but about 10% of the time the answer is definitely "NO"! The shell belts on this gun bay kit are a great example, as are the rear wall parts that do not fit, which I deleted earlier for similar reasons. The good news is that unwanted PE parts go into a stash for future use. I've used a ton of them on builds that had nothing to do with the subject I was working on.

If I could get some 1/32 or 1/35 50 cal. shells on a belt already assembled, I would be all over trying to fit them into this build, but from the video above, there's no way I'm attempting that. I am neurotically dedicated to each build I attempt, but I need 73 bullets X 4 belts = 292 bullets! No way I'm doing that, for likely 2 weeks of assembling a couple of shell belts. I think some really nicely painted, weathered and detailed resin guns, with full wiring to the solenoids and a much more detailed (and accurate) shell tray than the kit parts, are the answer, in a "less is more" theme. I WILL make this look good (did I say that already?) :woot.gif:

Edited by chuck540z3
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Chuck,

Also thanks for the tutorial on PE. One qestion though... Have you ever had an issue with the de-bonder hurting or eating the plastic? I know you mentioned it eats paint, but was wondering if you had had the same issue with it on plastic. Maybe it's the brand of de-bonder I have.

Stephen

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Chuck,

Also thanks for the tutorial on PE. One qestion though... Have you ever had an issue with the de-bonder hurting or eating the plastic? I know you mentioned it eats paint, but was wondering if you had had the same issue with it on plastic. Maybe it's the brand of de-bonder I have.

Stephen

Nope, based upon the brand of de-bonder in the pic above. It does, however, melt enamel paint quite readily! Maybe part of it is that I like to mop up all solvents with the microbrushes fairly quickly, so that they don't pool or sit on the plastic very long.

Update:

Just for fun, I put a nice pool of this de-bonder on some plastic and let it sit for 5 minutes. There was no erosion of the plasttic at all and the plastic remained hard. I've also used this stuff on CA glue that was days old. It takes longer to dissolve the glue, but it does dissolve. Great stuff, which is why they call it "Great Planes"!

http://www.greatplanes.com/accys/gpmr6001.html

Edited by chuck540z3
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Nope, based upon the brand of de-bonder in the pic above. It does, however, melt enamel paint quite readily! Maybe part of it is that I like to mop up all solvents with the microbrushes fairly quickly, so that they don't pool or sit on the plastic very long.

Update:

Just for fun, I put a nice pool of this de-bonder on some plastic and let it sit for 5 minutes. There was no erosion of the plasttic at all and the plastic remained hard. I've also used this stuff on CA glue that was days old. It takes longer to dissolve the glue, but it does dissolve. Great stuff, which is why they call it "Great Planes"!

http://www.greatplan...s/gpmr6001.html

Hey Chuck, great tutorial and obviously great progress as well... It will be very helpful since this is one of the hardest things in modelling ( gluing PE with CA...) for me personally! About the CA de-bonder, I didn't like some resin ECS stacks on my recent build, so I used the de-bonder on the resin parts to remove... To my surprise the resin turned soft and spongy, luckily I was discarding the AM anyway!!! Just FYI in case anyone wants to know.

/Jesse

Edited by JesniF-16
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Hey Chuck, great tutorial and obviously great progress as well... It will be very helpful since this is one of the hardest things in modelling ( gluing PE with CA...) for me personally! About the CA de-bonder, I didn't like some resin ECS stacks on my recent build, so I used the de-bonder on the resin parts to remove... To my surprise the resin turned soft and spongy!!! Just FYI in case anyone wants to know.

/Jesse

Thanks for the tip Jesse. I had something similar happen to me soaking painted plastic parts in ordinary paint thinner. I wanted to remove some difficult to remove paint from some small parts and after soaking over night in the thinner, the parts came out "springy" and wouldn't harden. This was not lacquer thinner, so I was surprised.

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Ummmmmm, I think we already know what it is....

I'd assumed Antonio was commenting on the post immediately above his, which was a P-51B/C of the 332nd FG, not the Mk.1A in Finn's image. Either way, definitely not an A-36.

Edited by mawz
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Chuck, you are my kind of masterful modeler, you make it look easy which allows me to fool myself thinking "yep, that's exactly how I'm gonna do this whenever I get to it" while looking at the boxes on my shelf.

Thank you for taking the time to post regularly and to include tutorials, this is exactly the kind of build everyone loves to follow, just like a good movie.

Regarding the .50 cal bullets in the "tray", I'm not sure which is the best method but I don't like the Eduard ones, they look flat.

The real ones look like what Tamiya did, you can see when they rise up above a separation wall in the ammo bay.

It looks rather mechanical and Eduard fails to capture this.

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Chuck...getting better and better :thumbsup: !Sorry for commenting this late on your beautiful build matey, but what I'd have said if not a plethora of superlatives?

I'm glad you're using the Aires guns...they look much better than the kit's ones while the kit's ammo trays are a thousand times more convincing than those ridicolously flat ammo Aires keeps on filling the frets with!

I've been considering scratchbuilding the trays and put to good use a fes sets of brass turned .50 round and PE links I have in my AM Aladdin's cave but mental sanity comes first http://vodnik.republika.pl/pages/Mission/ammo50.htm

As far as CA debonder is concerned be very careful everybody...it may not hurt all plastics and resins but it's often oily and requires a good cleaning in order to have paints and glues do the job they're supposed to.....sticking to your model! ;-)

Cheers

Manu

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