dsahling Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Look at some pictures of "old crow" p151d, I have the scale precision masks instructions and I believe it only shows 3 stripes, I'll take a photo and try and post it soon. Keep up the good work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Honza K. Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I know, that mustang has a putty lines and rivets... But on your model It looks like half puttyed... I´m not sure, If it´s nice in scale look, If you understand me... You have it on in a half way... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brewer Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I think what Honza is trying to say is maybe it looks better in person. Macro shots are no friend to the modeler :) Well, for most of us anyway, doesn't seem to be a problem for you, Chuck. I'm sure there's a noticeable difference between the rivets/panel lines on the wings and those on the fuselage, and I'm sure once the model is complete and the weathering is done the difference will be even more apparent Keep up the great work, Chuck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Charlie Cheetah Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I think what Honza is trying to say is maybe it looks better in person. Macro shots are no friend to the modeler :)/> Well, for most of us anyway, doesn't seem to be a problem for you, Chuck. I'm sure there's a noticeable difference between the rivets/panel lines on the wings and those on the fuselage, and I'm sure once the model is complete and the weathering is done the difference will be even more apparent Keep up the great work, Chuck! They only puttied the wings though, not the fuselage. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brewer Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I know, that was my point ;) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) I know, that mustang has a putty lines and rivets... But on your model It looks like half puttyed... I´m not sure, If it´s nice in scale look, If you understand me... You have it on in a half way... Honza, I know. I tried to do it that way. This is my interpretation of filled panel lines with wear, which results in some putty remaining while other putty is compressed into the depressions, resulting in a mixed look. I have several pics of wartime P-51D's that show this very phenomenon. Now I will admit, the remaining panel lines and rivets did come out more prominently than I had planned, so I am going to be using weathering wash in the panel lines and rivets on the fuselage while avoiding the wings to achieve more of a contrast between a puttied rivet and one that isn't. You are a very talented modeler Honza and I have admired your builds- and commented on them in a very positive way many times. One of your trademarks is very heavy panel and rivet detail, which I like, but not everybody else does. As a matter of fact, I defended your use of heavy rivet detail in this post when it was brought into question (see Post #20): http://s362974870.onlinehome.us/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=248568&st=0&p=2363199entry2363199 Just because a panel line or rivet isn't deep and consistent, doesn't make it wrong, especially when it is done on purpose. Right now Guy (geedubelyer) is filling in some panel lines and adding raised ones to other panel lines on his new Eagle project in order to replicate what he sees on the real jet with his eyes. I'm trying to do the very same thing, which is the artistic side of modeling that I enjoy the best. Your comments at this very late stage of the build are not constructive because I can't change things, even if I wanted to. Edited February 11, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 (edited) Can't help you with those invasion stripes, but I did notice something else. The P-51 you're building a model of had a rear view mirror attached to the top of the windscreen. I went trough the thread a bit, but couldn't find a post about this. Will you add this in a later stage? If it has been disccused before, my apologies. EDIT: Ah, nvm, you already found out on September 6 last year. Edited February 11, 2013 by Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 Can't help you with those invasion stripes, but I did notice something else. The P-51 you're building a model of had a rear view mirror attached to the top of the windscreen. I went trough the thread a bit, but couldn't find a post about this. Will you add this in a later stage? If it has been discused before, my apologies. Yes Pete, I've got it set aside as likely the very last part I'll glue on. I'm terrified because I'll be gluing it on the clear windscreen which I've painted and it will be very fragile. Too little glue and it won't stick, while too much glue could spell another disaster with the clear glass. I bought some special clear glue for jewelry that just might be the ticket. Time will tell. Like a lot of kits, there are a number of pieces that aren't in the instructions, including this mirror and a few others. I was going to fill in what looking like bad circular mold marks on the sides of the mirror, when I saw a similar mirror on a real Spitfire that has circular holes on either side, so it looks like they were molded there on purpose. If anybody has a close up of this mirror, I'd sure appreciate it! :thumbsup:/> What I haven't posted yet is some significant progress on the 108 Gal. paper drop tanks using Barracuda resin. The Prop Forum gave me some excellent reference pics for the fairly extensive plumbing on these tanks, so I'll be adding that along with other goodies in the near future. The prop is almost done as well, so I'm closing in on a big finish in the next month or so. It will be sad to see the Mustang project go, but I've got a 1/32 A-10 Hog and a ton of aftermarket stuff to keep me busy in the year ahead! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Pete Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 If anybody has a close up of this mirror, I'd sure appreciate it! :thumbsup:/>/>/> There's one eBay for sale, with some nice close up pics: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spitfire-Rear-View-Mirror-27H-2017-With-Original-Stalk-/190794756532?pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM&hash=item2c6c40f1b4 but I've got a 1/32 A-10 Hog and a ton of aftermarket stuff to keep me busy in the year ahead! :woot.gif:/> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 11, 2013 Author Share Posted February 11, 2013 There's one eBay for sale, with some nice close up pics: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Spitfire-Rear-View-Mirror-27H-2017-With-Original-Stalk-/190794756532?pt=UK_CPV_Aviation_SM&hash=item2c6c40f1b4 Thanks Pete. After some exhaustive searching on the 'net, I found this site of the 335 FS. The paint scheme is pretty clear on these birds, so it looks like I need to do a full set of stripes, including the white block for the rear letter "D". http://www.4thfightergroupassociation.org/aircraft.html Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Devilleader501 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 OOOOO you have my full attention on the A-10 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
KRI76 Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 Wow. This is going to be a thing of beauty. To add my 2 cents concerning the rivet "debate", I have to admit I can't wait to see how she'll look under all the layers of washes, weathering, dull/clear coats, ... As Chuck wrote in the post about Honza's build, I think we should all have patience and wait to see how it turns out in the end. It is however fun to follow projects where something new is tried. It may not always work for the best, but it surely help us all to progress in the hobby. /Kristian Quote Link to post Share on other sites
brewer Posted February 11, 2013 Share Posted February 11, 2013 I've got a 1/32 A-10 Hog and a ton of aftermarket stuff to keep me busy in the year ahead! I have a half-built Trumpy A-10 packed full of aftermarket just gathering dust in the closet... That thing is a bear, but maybe I'm spoiled by the fit and finish of Tamiya/Hasegawa kits. I'm sure it won't be a problem for a builder of your incredible skill, Chuck! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Honza K. Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) OK Chuck, sorry. I can´t watch your topic daily... :-( If this is only WOW topic, I don´t will write you nothing else... It was only my view... The most important is, than you like it... and about this is modelling... Edited February 12, 2013 by Honza K. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Anthony in NZ Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Hi Chuck That mirror is a std 'Air Ministry' one often seen on Spitfires and Mustangs etc. Even My Auster T7 has one! Anyway, I have a brand new one still in its box to go back on my plane when she is through rebuild. I can take a photo if you like. They are actually holes on either side. These allow access to the top of the mounting bracket attach point. Cheers Anthony Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Emvar Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 OK Chuck, sorry. I can´t watch your topic daily... :-( If this is only WOW topic, I don´t will write you nothing else... It was only my view... The most important is, than you like it... and about this is modelling... Honza, I don't think Chuck took it personal, His interpretation of a worn Mustang with Putty being worn down on the wings is what he is depicting. Like any build it is also good to get all sorts of feedback be it bad or good, It is always nice to see how others share their unique experiences to certain situations. I would think there is more of a loss in translation.... This conversation is not much of a WOW as the techniques that Chuck is showing. Very few actually take the time to explain and show how a model is built. How to solve problems that creep up, how not to be afraid to go redo something if you don't like it. Maybe it's me but I'm more into the content than the Subject. Although I will say it is a very nice subject. Emil Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Honza K. Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 (edited) I know I know... For example I build mustang with all rivets... and dark wash, because I like It... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/57314-p-51d-mustang-148/page-3 I absolutely undestand, what way Chuck chose.. I only wrote, that isn´t nice, that rivets are putty to half and panel lines too... In smaller scale is maybe better putty all on wings, but in 1/32 can model with putty rivets look like a big toy... ( better is not good, for me). Chuck did here very nice build from the start... But final result, or result in this moment isn ´t cap of my tea... I don´t want to say, that is terrible or something... :-) Edited February 12, 2013 by Honza K. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 I know I know... For example I build mustang with all rivets... and dark wash, because I like It... http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/index.php?/topic/57314-p-51d-mustang-148/page-3 I absolutely undestand, what way Chuck chose.. I only wrote, that isn´t nice, that rivets are putty to half and panel lines too... In smaller scale is maybe better putty all on wings, but in 1/32 can model with putty rivets look like a big toy... ( better is not good, for me). Chuck did here very nice build from the start... But final result, or result in this moment isn ´t cap of my tea... I don´t want to say, that is terrible or something... :-) Hi Honza, I understand that you don't like it. Fine and I'm not looking for nothing but positive comments, if they are constructive. I've made many mistakes along the way, like the position of my gun-sight, ignition rail on the engine and the removal of weld lines that should be there. I appreciated it when others pointed out my errors because I could still fix them. My only concern with your comments is the timing, because I can't "fix" what you don't like and this isn't Critique Corner. It would be like me telling you that your Mustang wings are wrong because they should have had putty. Personally, I really like your beautiful panel line and rivet detail, but even if I didn't, pointing out this "error" when your wings are essentially finished would be, shall we say, poor timing. Anyway, let's put this topic to bed. We've both made our points and we should move on. Happy modeling! I really like your work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 12, 2013 Author Share Posted February 12, 2013 Now some fairly interesting weathering of the metal surfaces on this bird before I paint the invasion stripes, other paint detail and the application of decals. If you look at this pic of Thunderbird again, it is fairly heavily weathered and dirty, with dark stains all over the metal surfaces: To start the weathering process, I "sanded" the Alclad surfaces with 4000# down to 8000# polishing cloths, which eroded the metallic lacquer down to the black Krylon base coat. This gives a soiled and weathered look without using traditional washes like ProModeler. The really cool thing is that if you erode down too far and don't like the look, you can easily spray some more Alclad on top to tone things down. Here's some pics: I darkened the "step" at the rear of the wing quite a bit, because this area usually got heavily soiled with boot marks, etc.. I may tone this down later, but it shows that a dark wash is unnecessary with this "weathering" method. That rudder looks fairly accurate too, since it is made of fabric vs. aluminum on the rest of the tail, so I used a dull aluminum color.... Now a pleasant surprise. The wings looked very smooth with just Alclad, but after buffing some of the Alclad off with the polishing cloths, you can see a slightly lumpy look to the top wing surface on the inner wings. This is due to the putty I applied to the wings earlier and it looks a lot like pics of the real deal where the wing surfaces were slightly dinged up with guys walking all over the wings to re-load the guns and fill the gas tanks.... Another angle... I really like how the individual panels stand out, due to different Alclad paints that eroded at different rates with the sanding cloth... You might have noticed that I now have all the ailerons, elevators and rudder on now. I left these off until the end to make assembly, painting and detailing easier, but I'm here to tell you, DON'T DO IT!! Sticking the rudder on was fine, but the elevators and ailerons were a BEAR to get on, mostly because they should be added when the instructions tell you to. Although I dry fitted them earlier, I didn't realize that the ailerons must be inserted into their slots before the main flaps, because the flaps have a large pin that that goes through the aileron metal attachment. To get them in, I had to trim this metal piece to fit over the pin, rather than have the pin go through it. For the elevators, the main plastic pivot pin won't fit unless it is trimmed back slightly, all because they should have been inserted earlier when the horizontal stabilizers were glued in. Although it was a struggle and I sweated bullets, I got everything to fit without breaking anything, although I came close. I'm happy with the end result, but I got lucky, so do yourself a favor and follow the instructions! Next step: Invasion stripes, Olive green in front of the windshield, red propeller area, etc. This might take a few days- and thanks for checking in! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Carson Lomax Posted February 12, 2013 Share Posted February 12, 2013 Now I need YOUR help! Getting pics of Thunder Bird are hard to come by (P-51D-10-NA, 44-14570, flown by Capt. Ted E Lines, of the 335th FS 4th Fighter Group) and even three decal manufacturers have made some mistakes. For instance, none of them have the black and white "Invasion Stripes" on the belly behind the cockpit, which this bird clearly has in this hard to see shot.... Trying to figure out the stripes is hard, because the forward white stripe just to the right of the "WD", appears to be heavily faded or maybe even absent. The small "D" to the right of the stripes, may or may not have a white background. Here's a color pic I found of a sister Mustang to Thunder Bird, showing how the striping pattern might be. If true, I'm not a fan of that small white block that the "A" sits on. Is the "D" on Thunder Bird on a similar white block? Sooo, if anybody can dig up some more reference pics for this squadron, please post them here or let me know via PM. Right now I'm inclined to have a white/black/white/black striped belly with no white block at the end. Thanks guys! Fantastic work Chuck. I have no pictures but have you read this information on Wikipedia regarding invasion stripes? It may help with the layout. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_stripes Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazy Snap Captain Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Chuck, The technique of the "stepped on wings" is inspired! Is the putty you refer to the "infamous" rivet putty. What a great effect. Now divulge...was it on purpose or did you fluke it? :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 13, 2013 Author Share Posted February 13, 2013 (edited) Chuck, The technique of the "stepped on wings" is inspired! Is the putty you refer to the "infamous" rivet putty. What a great effect. Now divulge...was it on purpose or did you fluke it? :) Total fluke!, which is why I called it a "Pleasant surprise". When you think about it though, putty that has been spread around on some areas while not on others, even when sanded, should be slightly "lumpy" when magnified. The magnification is the Alclad metal finish, because it shows everything, including tiny flaws. As I type this I'm masking off the wings for the black invasion stripes, which should hide some of it, but not all. The other fluke I discovered was the darkened effect of using fine sandpaper cloths on the Alclad. I was sanding down some of the engine support beams and this neat blackening occurred within the metal finish. Now I'm using this technique on the entire model. Edited February 13, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
HOLMES Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Sorry to see your breakage but I see YIUR dexterity and fortitude gas gotten the broken part back to your high standards. Good recovery a d surgical Work Good outstanding work so far. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Marcel111 Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Page 33 of this thread... time flies when you're having fun! Always nice to see some new techniques and I certainly have never seen the polishing cloth on Alclad trick before--looks great! On adding parts after paining... these days I try to add as much as is possible before painting so as to avoid nasty surprises... on my Typhoon, I even added the external tanks (has the added bonus of protecting the tidbits on the bottom of the airplane). Overall, it's really coming together beautifully. Finished in time to hit the links in spring? Marcel Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Thanks Guys! I've been agonizing for days as to how to paint the invasion stripes on this bird. Mustangs during the war were painted in a myriad of patterns with many, many differences between squadrons and even within squadrons, so you really need to research your subject if you want to paint something fairly accurate. While the pics noted above have the forward white stripe almost gone (was it removed?), there is a hint of the rear white stripe that goes under the "D" on the rear gear door, which has a clear demarcation line. I've studied many pics of sister Mustangs with the "WD" code and for the most part, they have the forward stripe and usually the rear one. Sooner or later, I had to make a decision, so I've gone basically with what I like, which is having the front white stripe and deleting the rear. I must admit the nightmare of a masking tape job in and around the rear gear door made my decison easier. As it is, this is a BIG job and it takes hours to mask just right to replicate the real Thunder Bird as close as possible. I used Krylon gloss black and gloss white lacquers for the stripes because they go on so smooth, thin and they dry fast. I plan on "beating them up", so I'll post a few pics of the invasion stripe progress and the red and olive drab details at the front of the aircraft. First the underside, to give you and idea where to mask. Theoretically these fuselage stripes are 18" in real life which is about 14 mm at 1/32 scale, but to replicate the pics I have, I had to tighten them up to 13 mm. The wing stripes, which are supposed to be 15", I left at their correct scale of 12 mm. Pics of the bottom... The top... A close-up. I haven't sanded the stripes down yet to remove any slightly rough edges and to replicate weathering, because I want this paint to be good and dry before I do. Those weld marks I recreated at the rear of the wing root turned out OK... The front. I love those removable panels!..... Say goodbye to nice and perfect paint! This bird is about to get a little used and tired! Now another tip on Krylon paint. As discussed many times, I use it to make sure the Alclad sticks to the plastic using the Krylon as a primer. With all the masking I had to do with the invasion stripes and other details, I had no Alclad lift with the tape because it is good and stuck to the Krylon. However, on the front engine cowling parts, I had the Alclad peel many times when pulling up the tape. Why? I'm certain that it has to do with the age of the Krylon paint, because I painted these panels months ago long before the fuselage. I believe the Krylon became so hard due to curing, that it no longer reacted with the Alclad, allowing the Alclad to "bite" into it. It's just my theory, but I bet I'm right. The key, I think, is to paint the Alclad within a few weeks of Krlyon application, rather than a few months. Fortunately, touching up the Alclad was very easy, because it's so thin it doesn't leave paint edges to show up under the next coat of lacquer. One more Krylon tidbit. The gloss white goes bad much faster than the gloss black for some reason. When applying the gloss white invasion stripes, I noticed that it was coming out of my airbrush sort of dusty and it dried like a flat white. Checking the paint further, the pigment had balled up, so it was now garbage. Thankfully the paint dries so fast, I was able to sand it down and apply a fresh batch of decanted Krylon within a half an hour. Whew! Another save! As a guide, the gloss black lasts about 2 months and the gloss white only one month to be safe, both thinned with about 25% Tamiya lacquer thinner. Edited February 17, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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