CF104 Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Is that weathered NMF or peeling aluminum paint (thought I read that Korea-era Mustangs were painted)? Interesting picture regardless. Pretty sure that the Korean era Mustangs were painted so that pic would show weathered and peeling aluminum paint. Unfortunately not too much help with weathered unpainted aluminum. Cheers, John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 Thanks for the tips guys! DECALS. You either love them or hate them, depending on the decal, location of application and skill level you may have. I've made every decal mistake in the book and I'm still learning, but they don't intimidate me as much as they used to. In all circumstances, you must start off with a very smooth surface, typically one with Future floor polish. Since this is a BMF, I know from seeing other builds with Future on them that the Future coat is way too thick and it takes the metallic finish I've tried to achieve away from the model. Since I'm using Alclad lacquer and I don't want to take chances with anything else that could craze the paint, I tried Alclad Clear Gloss for the first time. I really like the stuff, although it is mineral spirit based, so it takes longer to dry than Future or lacquer. Here's the model with two good coats, which dry super thin, but still shiny... As mentioned earlier, the Fundekals are fantastic- the best decals I've ever used- and since the P-51D has so many stencils, there wasn't much use in trying to paint them on. Try and melt a kit decal down on a an irregular surface like this. It will likely turn out into a mess, but the Fundekals melt down with the usual Microset and Microsol decal solutions. The missing corner was applied to the Eduard gun door I'll be using later, rather than the kit parts which are used to just keep paint our of the gun bays... Using both the Zotz decals and Fundekals in combination, you don't need to use any of the Tamiya ones, which are fairly thick. I tried to place the decals in the exact same location as the real Thunder Bird, which went fairly well, but as usually happens, not every decal was the right size and shape. There was a problem, however, with the black invasion stripe showing through the white star.... I couldn't find any pics of this happening on the real deal, so I had to do something to at least tone down the stripe. Thinking about things for awhile, I decided to mask off the stripe and re-paint it white. Knowing that regular masking tape will pull off the decal, I used small bits of Post-it notes cut into irregular shapes on both sides.... After a couple of coats, the stripe is almost gone. I didn't worry about the line on the rear of the decal, because I plan on getting these fairly dirty later, which should knock down the contrast... The Thunder Bird emblem on the front proved to be a real challenge, because it goes on FOUR separate parts! To do this, I applied the decal in the exact position as the real deal with all the parts in place. Kudos to Zotz for getting it almost perfect! I then applied Microsol to suck the decal into the cavities to reveal the panel lines. After it dried, I CAREFULLY cut the decal along the panel lines with a NEW #11 knife. Thankfully, it worked perfectly without any torn or damaged decal parts.... A couple of close-ups. Before... After... With all the work I've done to the engine, however, theis emblem will likely be off most of the time like this... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) Another angle, showing the serial number on the tail.... Other side.... After the decals were applied and dried, I sprayed another coat of Alclad Clear gloss to all of them to seal them in. I plan on using a number or weathering methods on them to knock down the shine and make them look more worn, so stay tuned! While that all dries for a few days, I started on the canopy. As usual you have a seam line to remove along the center. Tamiya supplies 3 different canopies that are very hard to differentiate from each other, so it's hard to decide on the correct one. The latest is part P1, the middle canopy is N1 and the earliest is M1. I went with the middle one, N1, because it matches most of the other parts I'm using for the "B" version of this Mustang. Here it is on the left after sanding off the seam line using polishing cloths and Tamiya polishing compounds. One of the spare canopies is on the right. You should cut off that tab at the front if you don't plan on installing the early rear-view mirror, Part L4, which the instructions fail to mention.... As mentioned before, I no longer use Future on my glass parts, because I get a great finish and I can repair slight scratches with the polishing compounds later if required. With Future, you need to strip it with Windex and I find the Futured look is a bit too thick and unrealistic looking to my eye. After painting- inside and out- it looks pretty good. Remember to paint that aerial guide at the rear of the canopy metal colored and don't paint the cross member within the canopy flat black like the instructions call for. In all my reference pics, this part should be interior green like the rest of the cockpit.... I'm on the back stretch now boys! It will be sad when this project is finished. Thanks for checking in. Edited February 24, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn M Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 wow those decals really set the build off, looks fantastic! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 It looks terrific! Just one thing, Tamiya is correct about the canopy brace, it should be black like all the rest of the canopy interior frame. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Neo Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Great work i was planning on buying the alclad Klears it looks like they give a good result Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 24, 2013 Author Share Posted February 24, 2013 (edited) It looks terrific! Just one thing, Tamiya is correct about the canopy brace, it should be black like all the rest of the canopy interior frame. Like I said, "Even though you may have several reference pics that show the cross brace to be interior green, make sure you paint it flat black as per the Tamiya instructions!" Thanks again Christian. Funny thing is, I painted it flat black to begin with, then switched to green after looking at a few pics of (of course) restored birds. Thankfully this part was only friction fitted and not glued, because there really is no reason to. Consider it fixed! With it now black, I was able to dry brush it and bring our a number of rivets which you couldn't see when it was green. Edited February 24, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Antonio Argudo Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 great job Chuck, I'm enjoying the painting stage a lot, thanks for sharing with us my friend! I would like to share my point of view, I would increase the contrast between flaps, ailerons vs silver painted and puttied wing, those are highly shinny in reference pics, maybe some kind of metallic polishing powder can help?also dont forget the hydraulic acces lading gear panel too. about the roundels decals, to me they look too blue for my taste, maybe some weathering can kill the color saturation, keep the good my friend, it is a pleasure to follow this build, cheers Anonio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) great job Chuck, I'm enjoying the painting stage a lot, thanks for sharing with us my friend! I would like to share my point of view, I would increase the contrast between flaps, ailerons vs silver painted and puttied wing, those are highly shinny in reference pics, maybe some kind of metallic polishing powder can help?also dont forget the hydraulic acces lading gear panel too. about the roundels decals, to me they look too blue for my taste, maybe some weathering can kill the color saturation, keep the good my friend, it is a pleasure to follow this build, cheers Anonio Thanks for the feedback Antonio, especially when I can change things if I was on the wrong track, like the cross beam on the canopy pointed out by Christian. Fear not my friend, all of your concerns will be, hopefully, dispelled in the future. As I've done a few times in this thread, I'll use my last build of my F-4E to demonstrate where this bird is headed. Here is the tail section with fresh decals. Pretty good decal job, but it looks unrealistic for a heavily weathered line jet... After washes, some salt weathering and some dull coat, it looks more like the real deal, even though my best pic is of the other side. Note the staining on the titanium panels. I hope to achieve something similar. Consider the rest of the model done about the same. This is where "less is more" I admit, but I still like the dirty look of a front line fighter. Edited February 25, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
zaxos345 Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 Amazing Job Chuck!!!! And these decals!!!!!!!!!!! I have also a set of those, man you made my day. Did you follow the same technique as with future, after the Alclad gloss application? and i mean the sanding process or it was not needed? How was the drying time of the Alclad gloss? because i have heard and read that it takes alot of time to dry, that is why some modellers prefer to use the acrylic one! John Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 25, 2013 Author Share Posted February 25, 2013 (edited) Did you follow the same technique as with future, after the Alclad gloss application? and i mean the sanding process or it was not needed? How was the drying time of the Alclad gloss? because i have heard and read that it takes a lot of time to dry, that is why some modellers prefer to use the acrylic one! John I found that the Alclad gloss took much longer to dry to the touch than Future, but I have a technique I use that reduces drying times dramatically. Using enamels and lacquers almost exclusively, I have my paint booth in my garage and I use a full respirator. Since my garage is not heated, I use a few small space heaters to take the chill off (especially in the winter!), with one of them at waist level next to my paint booth. It has a very low fan setting on it, so that the heat is projected at a moderate level. As I paint parts in my paint booth, I often slide them over to the heater to dry in between coats. Whereas I might have to wait up to 10 minutes for an enamel coat to dry at room temperature, I can get the paint dry to the touch in only 1 or 2 minutes next to the heater. The Alclad Gloss instructions say to let it dry for at least an hour, but with the above heater set-up, I got it to dry in about 5-7 minutes. This got the finish dry enough to flip the model over and do the other side without worrying about it sticking to the pipe wrap box I use to suspend my model. I then let the model dry for about 24 hours before I tried my first decal, but I would do that anyway with a Future coat. The finish was fairly dry, certainly dry enough for decaling, but it still has a slight tacky feel if you hold the model too long with your oily fingers. Sanding was not required. Now after 2 days of drying, it feels no different than a Future coat would. One thing I did do with the Alclad was to thin it with Tamiya lacquer thinner, because I found it way to thick straight out of the bottle. The Tamiya product isn't too hot, so I wasn't worried about the paint crazing which might happen with regular lacquer thinner, especially when you need to create a wet coat to avoid stippling. The Alclad is mineral spirit based, so I suppose regular enamel paint thinner would work as well. One other advantage to the Alclad product over Future was that I never had the gloss finish cloud with several applications of Microsol over difficult decals. I can usually fix this cloudy appearance with another coat of Future, but it's nice to not even worry about it at all. To tell you the truth, I may never use Future again since all of my washes are water based anyway. Edited February 25, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JMan Posted February 25, 2013 Share Posted February 25, 2013 What a change from one side to the other. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Anybody still worried about where this bird is headed with weathering? ;) The real deal. Yes, I know that some of the decals could be in different places, but when they aren't that accurate to begin with, you compromise. Eg. The arrow is too short.. Preliminary weathering. Pastel work, oil stains and exhaust patterns to come.... I'll have a full write-up in about a week or so about how I got to this stage. Right now I'm having a ball modeling! Edited February 27, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
oortiz10 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have a NMF (1/48) Mustang at about the same stage in construction as yours Chuck. I was considering using the salt water technique to get that same sort of patina on my build. That is, I'm assuming that's what you did with yours. I'm looking forward to your write up. I may hold off progressing on mine until I see what you've done with yours. Inspiring work there pal. I'm enjoying your build! Cheers, -O Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 I have a NMF (1/48) Mustang at about the same stage in construction as yours Chuck. I was considering using the salt water technique to get that same sort of patina on my build. That is, I'm assuming that's what you did with yours. I'm looking forward to your write up. I may hold off progressing on mine until I see what you've done with yours. Inspiring work there pal. I'm enjoying your build! Cheers, -O What is this "Salt", that you speak of?.... Yeah, I did the 'ol salt treatment- again! I think this will be my 6th model in a row using this method, but each time I do things a little differently. As mentioned, a full write up in the near future! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tomcat21 Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Now that's courage! The rewards look to be worth it though, I've never seen such a realistic looking finish on a metallic aircraft. Fantastic. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Shawn M Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 lovely work o' Great Salt Master! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
tourist Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) SWEET! :wub:/> :banana:/> :woot.gif:/> Edited February 27, 2013 by tourist Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Lieuwe Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Looks like the aftermath of Kate Moss sneezing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted February 27, 2013 Author Share Posted February 27, 2013 (edited) Looks like the aftermath of Kate Moss sneezing! LOL! At least the salt costs a lot less that what Kate sticks up her nose. :D Thanks Guys for your supportive comments. As mentioned, I'm really deep into the weathering stage right now, which is my favorite part of modeling and one in which I spend a lot of time tweaking this and changing that. As I discovered with other builds, there is a very fine line between making something look like a realistic weathered fighter and a dirty mess, which is a line I've crossed a few times in the past. Here's what's left to do: - Change a few of the salt weathered (masked) patterns, by "backing off" some and adding others. - Dull coat the wings, to make them look more like painted aluminum, while buffing the metallic surfaces with sanding cloths to remove some of the shine from the gloss coat. I was going to use a matte coat, but I'm afraid of losing the smooth metallic finish I've achieved already. I think this will work a lot better and will look more like worn metal. - Oil stains. Besides the very noticeable one on the starboard vent of the engine cowling, I've noticed that there are usually a lot of stains on the bottom of the engine, oil cooler and radiator. I'm going to be trying a new method here using artist acrylic paint that I think might work. - Exhaust stains. There is a subtle but noticeable stain along the sides of the fuselage from engine exhaust. The key here is to make it subtle- another fine line. I'll post another update at this point, with explanations on how I did it for those who might be interested. After that, I'm on the home stretch with: - Add the paper 108 gallon drop tanks. I used the Barracuda resin parts and I'm leaving them new and shiny looking, just like the real deal which were dumped after every mission. I also plan on adding extensive plumbing to both, which is very noticeable on the real aircraft and adding tiny sway braces to the pylon forks that hold the tanks in place. - Gun bay and gear bay tweaks. After all the crap I've thrown at this bird, there's sure to be some clean up and detail painting left to do when I pull off the masks. - Windscreen and cockpit cleanup. As above, and I still have some odds and ends to add like the canopy rails on the cockpit sill. Pulling off the masking tape on the windscreen is always a heart stopping experience, because things will either look nice and clear underneath or you have a big problem that can't be fixed easily, if at all. Wish me luck! - Tiny bits and touch ups. Navigation lights and other small bits that I've left off will be added at the very end. - Final photography. It's always during these sessions that I find more boo-boos with my macro lens. Later, Chuck Edited February 27, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
fighter jet builder Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 Impressive :jaw-dropping:/> a master skill! :thumbsup:/> Quote Link to post Share on other sites
angry_android Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 I found that the Alclad gloss took much longer to dry to the touch than Future, but I have a technique I use that reduces drying times dramatically. Using enamels and lacquers almost exclusively, I have my paint booth in my garage and I use a full respirator. Since my garage is not heated, I use a few small space heaters to take the chill off (especially in the winter!), with one of them at waist level next to my paint booth. It has a very low fan setting on it, so that the heat is projected at a moderate level. As I paint parts in my paint booth, I often slide them over to the heater to dry in between coats. Whereas I might have to wait up to 10 minutes for an enamel coat to dry at room temperature, I can get the paint dry to the touch in only 1 or 2 minutes next to the heater. This is called 'baking' and is how it's done in full-size paint booths. The full-size commercial booths we used at the factory I worked in would bake for around 50 minutes, I think - 10 purging, 30 baking, 10 cooling. The flow from the ventilation stacks into the booths passed through propane-powered burners, which would normally be off, but during a bake cycle would heat the incoming air to upwards of two hundred degrees. The booth was pressurized during normal operations (to allow overspray to flow into the pit filters), and I believe this was reduced during a bake cycle to prevent hot air from blowing out in the event an errant employee should open a door (which would trigger a shutdown). These burners were also used to regulate temperature. Some booths had mechanical problems and would not keep the temperature at human-compatible levels when the heat was on. In the middle of winter, this led to an awkward choice: you could leave the heat on and bake, turn it off and freeze, or turn it on or off every ten minutes or so. Needless to say, I got used to wearing a coat over my Tyvek! If the booths were not allowed to go through the full cool-down cycle (after which the booth would automatically shut down), upon powering the booth up again (to use the lifts to demask or perform whatever other tasks might require the booth to be running), they would often overpressurize, blowing the doors out! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) OK Boys, now some pics of my latest salt weathering effort! I like to create random stains on the upper fuselage of most of my builds (OK, ALL of my builds), because I only build military aircraft that have seen some good wear and tear, usually fighters. As you can see from the many pics above of Thunder Bird, she is good and dirty with lots of wear marks, which I'm sure was typical on the air bases in England in 1944. Before I go too far, I noticed in my many attempts to find pics of Capt. Ted Lines Mustang, it turns out that he flew THREE different P-51's (1 B and 2 D's) that he had the Thunder Bird insignia on. I thought I was going nuts reading all the different serial numbers for presumably the same aircraft, but the following links tell it all: Ted Lines Kills Capt. Ted Lines I am building his latest ride, P-51D, NA 44-14570, WD-D which is pictured above. Unlike my prior salt weathering sessions, this is the first time I haven't done it on a Future surface and this is the first time I applied the salt crystals as a paste, rather than wet the aircraft and just sprinkle salt on. To do this I just mixed a super concentrated saline solution of 50% warm water and 50% salt. Since the concentration of salt is so high, not all of it will dissolve, leaving you with a salty paste instead. Using a soft brush, I just randomly spread it on all the surfaces including the bottom. Besides random staining, it gives the bare metal a more realistic look as the aluminum corroded at varying levels. Here's how it looks after the salt has dried and it's ready to paint. To speed the drying time, I used a hair dryer on a low setting.... A closeup.... To stain the surfaces I used two different Alclad colors: Steel and Transparent Smoke. This overcoat must be SUBTLE, so I used very low air pressure of about 10 psi and I gently misted all the surfaces, using Steel on the metal surfaces and Smoke on the painted aluminum wings. Bare stained aluminum has some dark shades in it, hence the dark Steel, while I wanted a different color for the painted wings that would give them a bit of a dirty look. Although the Smoke worked fine, I could have used Steel for everything, because the color contrast isn't that obvious. When the Alclad dried for about 1/2 hour, getting the salt off was a real chore, because unlike my jet fighters that I carefully put under my kitchen tap with a slow stream of warm water, this model has way too many cavities that the salty solution can get into, like the gear bays, rear of the cockpit and gun bays. To remove the salt, I carefully used a soft wet cloth I kept dipping in warm water then rubbed the salt off gently. It was a real mess and getting all the salt out of every nook and cranny took 2 hours or so. I got it all off though, with no scratches to the paint and as far as I know, no pools of salt where it shouldn't be. This revealed a nice blotchy look of weathered paint and metal, at least to my old eyes. Next up is a weathering wash that won't react with the lacquer and mineral spirits of the gloss coat. I was going to use more of The Detailer I used on the engine and cockpit, but I found that it didn't stick in the rivets very well and it does dry to a rubbery finish like liquid mask does. That's OK in tight spaces like the engine compartment, but for all the control surfaces and fuselage, I went with my steady ProModeler wash in Black. I love this stuff, because I can control how much goes on and how much I want to remove, without worrying about eroding the paint. I've tried the usual solvent based artist oil washes on a good Future coat before, but I always wound up peeling some paint off, so I now avoid them. I think they look better because you can get finer detail, but if they lift your beautiful paint job, who cares? ProModeler went on all the metallic surfaces while I avoided the wings, to minimize the panel line and rivet detail of the puttied wings..... Once I got the right amount of rivet and panel line detail in various locations, I used Alclad Matte to really knock the shine down on the wings, while gently reducing the metallic surfaces. Basically I used about 3 times as much of it on the wings as the other surfaces, masking them off with a piece of paper as I moved around the model. Decals and enamel painted surfaces got a little extra too. Once that was done, I applied some oil staining and exhaust stains using artist acrylic paint in black and some Tamiya pastels here and there. Here's the results so far, but please keep in mind that photographing this model with all the shiny surfaces under harsh light is very hard, Under some light, the shine is too harsh, while in other light, it may look too dull. All I know is that all looks good to my eyes, so here goes.... Note the stains on the wings... The rivet detail in this kit is freaking amazing!.... Edited March 1, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chuck540z3 Posted March 1, 2013 Author Share Posted March 1, 2013 (edited) Now a stain that's sure to be controversial, due to it's magnitude and dark color. I noticed in many pics of WW-II and Korean Mustangs that there is an oil vent of some kind (breather?) on the starboard side. It usually vents quite a bit of oil after awhile, both blown back and dripping down at rest- and everything in between less so. Finn (Jari) provided me with this really cool pic of a Korean P-51D, which shows the massive stain and how it caught the panel line at the rear of the engine cowling and traveled upwards slightly before being blown in a curve across the side of the fuselage. Here's the pic: Engine Oil Leak There are many other pics of this same phenomenon. Check out the fourth pic down in this link: Great P-51D site for weathering ideas Soooo, I tried to replicate something similar to the top pic, using acrylic artist paint diluted with water. Thankfully you can remove this stain with a damp Q-tip, because I screwed it up about 25 times before I got something that I thought looked reasonably realistic. After an hour or two drying however, it's really stuck there. I'll likely have the engine cowlings off most of the time, so this is all you'll see... The bottom can be equally stained with oil from the oil cooler and radiator areas, but I didn't go too wild here, especially since I already chipped the invasion stripes.... That's it for now guys. Hope you think it looks real! Edited March 1, 2013 by chuck540z3 Quote Link to post Share on other sites
catfan Posted March 1, 2013 Share Posted March 1, 2013 mustang looks great. my quation with the salt idea is what type of base paint do i need to paint my model for this to work right. or will any type of paint work cuz i have a lot corsairs and tomcats i whant to weather. and what kind of salt works the best that i can find at the store Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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