Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
Sign in to follow this  
11bee

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming

Recommended Posts

Well...leave your imagination wild!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Been reported for a while now, but i have yet to see a firm confirmation what planes will be there, if any, they could just send officers.

VDV had exercise with American colleagues a while back.

But Su-27's kicked F-15C's *** way back in 90's. :P

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awesome, we hosted some Russian forces here recently and IMO, the more training you can get in with other forces the better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's awesome, we hosted some Russian forces here recently and IMO, the more training you can get in with other forces the better.

Were you involved in that exercise? Just curious what your impressions were.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WOW!!!....Who'd thunk it. I'm just making a SWAG here, but it would be ludicrous for the USN not to be somewhere in observance, if not having direct participation. TOPGUN would benefit from this exercise. It will be Russian aircraft flown by some guys with experience who really know how to use machines designed and built for them from the outset. Detente, perestroika, and Glastnost have be expanded. One wonders what is the reasoning for such a historic event to take place. This is pure speculation; however preparation is a good thing to do when you plan for possible turns of events that may cause once enemies to become future allies i.e Nato with Russia as a member doing battle with a Mideastern power.

Edited by #1 Greywolf

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

WOW!!!....Who'd thunk it. I'm just making a SWAG here, but it would be ludicrous for the USN not to be somewhere in observance, if not having direct participation. TOPGUN would benefit from this exercise. It will be Russian aircraft flown by some guys with experience who really know how to use machines designed and built for them from the outset. Detente, perestroika, and Glastnost have be expanded. One wonders what is the reasoning for such a historic event to take place. This is pure speculation; however preparation is a good thing to do when you plan for possible turns of events that may cause once enemies to become future allies i.e Nato with Russia as a member doing battle with a Mideastern power.

Since it sounded like there was some question what the Russian's would actually bring (if anything) to this exercise, this may all be a moot point. However, assuming they show up with the A-team, I'm guessing that all flights involving the Russians will be highly "canned" with tight restrictions on use of radar, weapons, etc. Neither side is going to be using anything except the most basic combat modes.

That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion that we will be seeing more than a few Russian HUD shots of various USAF aircraft. Whether those shots were "earned" or not will probably be a subject of much debate here on ARC and elsewhere.

Hope the Rooski's get a chance to burn it up in Sin City while they are over here!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guarantee the Raptors won't even be on base. They already lock them in the barn unless very specific air forces are flying (Brits for example). This could be interesting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But Su-27's kicked F-15C's *** way back in 90's. :P

Where did you see this? If anything they probably were equal technology, I'd probably give the F-15 the edge though.

An Su-27 couldn't hold it's own versus an F-22.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Great ... more fodder for a pi$$ing contest ... :rolleyes:

-Gregg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Beyond the Red Flag excersises just imagine if some of them hung around for Aviation Nation in November, THAT would be awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion that we will be seeing more than a few Russian HUD shots of various USAF aircraft. Whether those shots were "earned" or not will probably be a subject of much debate here on ARC and elsewhere.

Oh, so you just assume that there wouldn't be any Russian aircraft in anyone else's HUDs?

MarkVIII_T-50.jpg

I kid I kid.... but seriously, unless something's radically changed since Agent Romanoff debriefed me, the Russians will only be there as OBSERVERS, hit the Vegas strip in the evenings, get drunk, and hit the casinos just like every other visitor.

3566114847_512d6feba4.jpg

But if you're desperate for a reason to hate on the USAF, maybe you'll get lucky and you'll catch 'em walking on your lawn.

Edited by Tony Stark

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

When we had Mig-29s fly at Maple Flag they really didn't do too well. Even the A-10s were shooting them down. At least two A-10s had Mig kills painted on them. When the Mig-29 was introduced it was suppose to be the equal to the F-18, but the truth is it was an inferior weapon.

I was surprised how poorly it performed. I've had two close up and personal experiences with the Mig-29. The first in 1993, when the Migs came to North America for the first time. The aircraft were re-assembled in our hanger. The second time was during Maple Flag in 2005. Each time I was less than impressed with the construction and quality of the airframe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to be facetious, but I don't really believe that either side will play all it's cards...whether bragging rights or not are in the mix. Simple you don't tip your hand. "It's just good business"....Thank you Lord Becket. Hud shots are well and good, all it means is that for a moment one got behind the other. HUD's don't fire weapons, and doesn't cause RWR gear to go nutz.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Guys, for real, they're NOT GOING TO FLY. They're just there to OBSERVE. Put away the kleenexes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Where did you see this? If anything they probably were equal technology, I'd probably give the F-15 the edge though.

I was kinda pulling a leg,

. But we are off course in the thread now, so please continue through PM's, if you wish. And there is no such thing as Mig-29.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
When the Mig-29 was introduced it was suppose to be the equal to the F-18, but the truth is it was an inferior weapon.

Well, the MiG-29 flew before the F-18 did for whatever thats worth, and as I understand it, was supposed to be competitive with the current block of F-16's. Whether it was or wasn't, I don't know. But I think to dismiss it entirely is a bit crass and simplistic possibly. Had the same airframe been of US manufacture, would your comments remain the same?

An Su-27 couldn't hold it's own versus an F-22.

Su-27 airframe dates back to 1977, ok, avionics et al have been upgraded, so its a very capable system, but its not by any means a new design, so that comparison is a little off perhaps.

I'll spin that quote around a touch, just for fairness

An F-18 couldn't hold it's own versus a PAK-FA.

Its all horses for courses, and I guess we all like to back a ride from a particular stable, but really, given that there's barely anyone on here with experience of flying in or against any of the protagonists, the arguments are moot.

But yep, veering off topic so I'll hush my mouth now, for what its worth though, having grown up through the Cold War era, I'm just grateful that we're in a situation where we DON'T know how an actual balls out conflict would pan out between the US and Russian aircraft and crews.

Edited by MattC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
it was in a simple dogfight exercise

This is an invention. Kharchevskiy's version changed over the years, and now he's convinced himself that a dogfight took place. No ACM training was planned, there was only a Su-27 flying in formation with an F-15. Kharchevskiy decided to let his Flanker slip in the 6 o'clock position of the US fighter. The F-15 tried to shake him and failed, which is no wonder with two aircraft of the same performance class starting from this position. I wouldn't call that a dogfight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is an invention. Kharchevskiy's version changed over the years, and now he's convinced himself that a dogfight took place. No ACM training was planned, there was only a Su-27 flying in formation with an F-15. Kharchevskiy decided to let his Flanker slip in the 6 o'clock position of the US fighter. The F-15 tried to shake him and failed, which is no wonder with two aircraft of the same performance class starting from this position. I wouldn't call that a dogfight.

I have read several different versions. I am not sure if you can read Russian, but should be readable through bablefish or google translate. Version wary from totally insane versions (ATS material) that evil Americans sabotaged fuel for Russian fighters, to much more believable versions.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the MiG-29 flew before the F-18 did for whatever thats worth, and as I understand it, was supposed to be competitive with the current block of F-16's. Whether it was or wasn't, I don't know. But I think to dismiss it entirely is a bit crass and simplistic possibly. Had the same airframe been of US manufacture, would your comments remain the same?

While the MiG-29 first flew a year before the F-18 (Oct 77 vs Nov 78), remember the F-18 is actually the older project as it was a further development of the YF-17 which first flew in 1974 and originated in the Northrop N-300 project back in 1965, which was itself an evolution of the F-5/T-38 projects which originated back in the mid-50's as the Northrop N-156.

The MiG-29 project originated in 1971 as a Lightweight alternative to the program which would produce the Su-27 and detailed design work didn't start until 1974.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, the MiG-29 flew before the F-18 did for whatever thats worth, and as I understand it, was supposed to be competitive with the current block of F-16's. Whether it was or wasn't, I don't know. But I think to dismiss it entirely is a bit crass and simplistic possibly. Had the same airframe been of US manufacture, would your comments remain the same?

The Mig-29 was rumored to have been built off of technology stolen from the YF-17 program, so yes the F-18 comparison is fair. The YF-17 first flew in 1971, the Mig 29 in 1974. The F-18 comparison is fair. Yes the Mig-29 was designed to compete with the F-16 and F-15 which I don't believe it ever matched. I also served with the first western pilot to ever fly the Mig-29, AFAIK he was excited to be the first to fly the Mig-29 but he did note the deficiencies in the design.

The Mig-29 was built on the cheap with volume and not quality in the design. The Russians have always been willing to fight a war of attrition. US design has always relied on advances in technology. I'd personally take technology over volume anyday.

As for the Mig-29 being designed to fight the F-16. It certainly couldn't fight the F-16s in Maple Flag. Your comment makes reference that it was only built to fight the first generation of the F-16. I am sure the version of Mig-29s we had at Maple Flag also went through upgrades over the years. Therefore I would conclude it didn't keep up with the F-16 over the years.

As well, I am Canadian. I endorse products I feel are of quality in design. This has nothing to do with me thumping my chest over a product built in the US as I am not American.

Su-27 airframe dates back to 1977, ok, avionics et al have been upgraded, so its a very capable system, but its not by any means a new design, so that comparison is a little off perhaps.

I made the Su-27 comment in response to the comment the Su-27 was going to kick butt at the excercise. Certainly it is a powerful and rugged aircraft. But some of the featured the Russians have showcased at airshows are totally useless in combat.

But yep, veering off topic so I'll hush my mouth now, for what its worth though, having grown up through the Cold War era, I'm just grateful that we're in a situation where we DON'T know how an actual balls out conflict would pan out between the US and Russian aircraft and crews.

You and I both, there would have been no winners. But as a maintainer I can't help but appreciate technology and quality of work. I have seen first-hand the quality and construction of several Russian aircraft which I have been less than impressed with.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

While the MiG-29 first flew a year before the F-18 (Oct 77 vs Nov 78), remember the F-18 is actually the older project as it was a further development of the YF-17 which first flew in 1974 and originated in the Northrop N-300 project back in 1965, which was itself an evolution of the F-5/T-38 projects which originated back in the mid-50's as the Northrop N-156.

The MiG-29 project originated in 1971 as a Lightweight alternative to the program which would produce the Su-27 and detailed design work didn't start until 1974.

Whoops, looks like I got a few of my dates reversed. YF-17 first flew in 74, Mig-29 77. I was typing at the same time as you and essentally said the same. I just was working off memory. The N-300 prototype first flew in 1971.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Mig-29 was built on the cheap with volume and not quality in the design. The Russians have always been willing to fight a war of attrition. US design has always relied on advances in technology. I'd personally take technology over volume anyday.

How did that philosophy work out in Vietnam? I don't think you can walk 10' in the former N Vietnam without tripping over the remnants of a USAF / USN jet. As far as the construction goes, don't make the mistake of confusing "crude" with durable. Soviet jets were designed to operate off of 2nd rate airbases and even unpaved runways. They were also designed to operate with much less of the support required by NATO aircraft. They may not have been designed to last 4,000 flight hours but in a war, that is pretty much irrelevant.

As far as the MiG-29 being an inferior jet, from all I have read, it was a very good dogfighter, on par with most Western designs. Where it was at a disadvantage was in the BVR realm, as the kills in Iraq and Yugoslavia will show.

Lastly, keep in mind another important fact. Before the USAF/USN finally deployed the AIM-9X / JHMCS combo in the early 2000's, the MiG-29 / Su-27 had an huge advantage in the dogfighting arena due to the the AA-11 / R-73 Archer all aspect IR missile (that was by all accounts, in a class by itself) and a helmet mounted sight to cue the Archer at extreme angles. You may not realize how much of a concern this was (and still is) to the West. It was a first-rate bit of equipment that overnight changed how Western jets would have to fight their USSR opponents.

A MiG-29 pilot didn't have to get his nose onto an F-16 to kill it, he could lock it up and launch an Archer while having his nose 90 degrees off his target. The West had nothing comparable, the vaunted AIM-9L wasn't even in the same league.

I'm the first one that wants to wave the flag when it comes to topics like this but you need to give the Russians credit where credit is due.

Edited by 11bee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...