Jump to content
ARC Discussion Forums
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
Sign in to follow this  
11bee

The Russians are coming, the Russians are coming

Recommended Posts

Actually, the MiG-29 was not designed to fight the F-16, it was an example of congruous evolution to the F-16. Both were design at pretty much the same time to produce a lightweight, cheaper alternative to a heavy frontline fighter, the F-15 in the F-16's case and the F-X opponent from Sukhoi (which would result in the Su-27) in the MiG-29's case. Thus you get an aircraft with very similar capabilities to the early F-16. The small delay between the two simply reflects that the Soviet fighters were designed in response to the F-X program, and therefore weren't started until after the US programs.

Not entirely correct. It is true that "MiG-29" and T-10 was competing against each other where T-10 was picked. Later however, they also decided to have a second program, for light aircraft. MiG was picked to design a light aircraft, which was supposed to fight F-16, while T-10 was supposed to take out F-15's.

It's interesting that both the MiG-29 and F-16 programs evolved for essentially identical reasons (the need for a cheaper, lightweight alternative to a massively complex but massively capable heavy fighter). It's unfortunate that the MiG-29 never saw the level of development that the F-16 or F-18 platforms did, but kind of ironic that the Su-27 would see arguably more development than the F-15 would.

I am not an expert of F-16, but i know in general what kind of evolution it has been through the years. I would argue that MiG-29 has seen by far more evolution than F-16 ever did. MiG-35D for instance is very deep modification: Altogether new frame loosely based on M series, new engines, new electronic suite, new construction materials etc etc. And MiG-35 is going to get a new radar soon, now with 1024 modules. Maybe we will also see the new vertical fins that has been shown but not "used" yet.

Speaking of writing correctly, are your posts written in code?

It was no secret when the Mig-29 was discovered it was thought it was developed from technology from the YF-17 program.

The rest of your post is written in code and I don't care to decipher it. Ironic that you stated I couldn't write correctly.

Where do you see "code". Everything is plain and simple, MiG-29 ( ;)) of 9.12 and 9.13 legacy cannot compete with F-16 of later blocks on even ground, it is no brainer. I will break it down:

Yes, vanilla MiG-29 will have hard time against modern F-16. Mainly because of the engines with way too low life and because of unreliable radar. Radar problems are well documented from German and Yugo air force for example.

Later MiG-29 versions are altogether entirely different beasts, the level of transformation it has gone through is comparable with YF-17 and Super Hornet as end result.

Ah right, i am convinced about YF-17 data being stolen to be channeled into MiG-29. :rolleyes: I will modify your sentence:

It was no secret when the Mig-29 was discovered it was thought it was developed from technology from the P-26 Peashooter program.

Or Avro Arrow. :)

The Royal Malaysian Air Force (RMAF), or in Malay, Tentera Udara DiRaja Malaysia (TUDM) is operator of both the M-29 and F/A-18D. The MiG-29N/NUB was acquired in 1995 in the air superiority role and the F/A-18D Hornet in 1997 to provide an all weather interdiction capability.....

And yet those stupid Indians are modifying their 9.12's and UB's. They will receive an very different radar (Zhuk-M2), new engines, new spine with more fuel, new ECM systems, new cockpit, new IRST, new weapons, refuel probe etc.

So, what is your point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet those stupid Indians are modifying their 9.12's and UB's. They will receive an very different radar (Zhuk-M2), new engines, new spine with more fuel, new ECM systems, new cockpit, new IRST, new weapons, refuel probe etc.

So, what is your point?

The MIG-29 were very cheap to acquire, $11M in 1984 and $29M in 2009, but are too expensive to maintain. Malaysian are not the only one who complaint. Same story at Bangladesh earlier.

The "stupid" Indians eliminated the MIG-35 from the MMRCA competition very early. They test flight all the 6 candidates in India by Indian crews and pilots. One comment they made was that the MIG-29 needs 20-members ground crew and more than 2 hours to get off the ground. One of the candidate airplane took only a crew of 2 and 30 minutes to get off the ground. The Indian pilots said that they were amazed.

The German Luftwaffe pilot had over 30,000 hours of the MIG-29 flight after the merge. The main complaint were short overhaul period and unreliable radar. German sold their MIG-29 to Poland for the symbolic price of €1 per item in 2003. Poland is still the biggest NATO operator of the MIG-29. The possibility of modernising the fighters to enable them to serve until 20202025 is being contemplated, depending on whether cooperation with Mikoyan can be established. How big a problem the maintanence cost was depended on how intensive you train the pilot.

Edited by Kei Lau

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The German Luftwaffe pilot had over 30,000 hours of the MIG-29 flight after the merge. The main complaint were short overhaul period and unreliable radar.

Given that, would it not be possible to upgrade the existing MiG-20's with a Western or Israeli radar to eliminate one of the main drawbacks of this aircraft?

I still think that the short overhaul period is not a reflection on a poorly designed aircraft but was typical for Soviet cold war military equipment. The same applied to their tanks and other gear. They made up for that with numbers and if they were ever going to invade NATO, they would have newly overhauled equipment in place. At that point, even if the aircraft was only rated for a few hundred hours (I have no idea on the actual figure), that would be sufficient to get the job done. Of course, that issue is a severe drawback when going up against Western aircraft in the international market.

I am surprised to hear about that statement regarding the need for 20 techs and 2 hours to launch a MiG-29. That seems to be contrary to all I have read about this aircraft. Maybe that applied to the MiG-35 prototype? That sounds more like a western design, the Soviet's were supposed to be focused on easily maintainable designs that did not need the huge amount of support personnel / equipment that Western designs required (a typical F-15 wing had 72 aircraft and 3,500 assigned personnel to support them - not a good ratio at all). Where did you get that info from?

Edited by 11bee

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "stupid" Indians eliminated the MIG-35 from the MMRCA competition very early.

Depends how define "early" in a competition that lasted this long. It was elimenated for obvious reasons compared to Rafale and Typhoon.

One comment they made was that the MIG-29 needs 20-members ground crew and more than 2 hours to get off the ground.

Proof? I know for a *fact* SMT doesn't need that much time or crew. I don't see why MiG-35 should need more?

The German Luftwaffe pilot had over 30,000 hours of the MIG-29 flight after the merge. The main complaint were short overhaul period and unreliable radar.

Thank you for saying something i have already pointed out. And rest is besides the argument...

11bee:

What is the point of installing wunderwaffe Israeli radar when there is Zhuk radar that fits nicely into 9.12 frame and is operational? (as was done on Russian SMT's and Indian UPG's)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And yet those stupid Indians are modifying their 9.12's and UB's. They will receive an very different radar (Zhuk-M2), new engines, new spine with more fuel, new ECM systems, new cockpit, new IRST, new weapons, refuel probe etc.

So, what is your point?

Really no need to get racial.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

11bee:

What is the point of installing wunderwaffe Israeli radar when there is Zhuk radar that fits nicely into 9.12 frame and is operational? (as was done on Russian SMT's and Indian UPG's)

Not sure there is a point. I'm not familiar w/ the Zhuk but I know the Israelis did some business retrofitting other MiG's w/ their own kit. If a nation was concerned about performance / reliability of the Russian product, it would at least give them some options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really no need to get racial.

I wasn't, i was extremely sarcastic that "smart" Malaysians decided not to upgrade while "stupid" Indian decided to do so.

But sorry if it got misunderstood.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Would love to see Japanese F-2s and F-15s compete against the Raptor

Easy kills. The Raptor drivers would be passed out due to oxygen deprivation.

FYI.... It's Red Flag-ALASKA(Not at Nellis AFB) scheduled for October 4-19, 2012

Steven L :rofl:

Edited by FAR148

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

FYI.... It's Red Flag-ALASKA(Not at Nellis AFB) scheduled for October 4-19, 2012

So the Russians won't get to visit Vegas after all. Too bad. Moscow on the Strip sounds like a great sequel title.

Robin%20Williams%20in%20Moscow%20on%20the%20Hudson.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...