Why the animosity towards WIFFs (What If builds)?

[dmk0210]

I see lots of guys ask questions about details and a common answer seems to be "it's a What if, do whatever you want". Or what does it matter?"

Sometimes there will be a thread about a detail and when the guys find out it's for a WIFF, they seem to act like the OP waited their time.

Often you are just changing one variable and do want to get the other details right even if it is a What-If. Perhaps it is a real aircraft in a service branch that it never actually served in, or a certain squadron marking, or maybe just a weapons load that was never actually fielded (but was on other aircraft).

Getting the details right are what makes it more interesting.

Edited July 9, 2012 by dmk0210

[geedubelyer]

Hi Dave,

I'm having a little bit of difficulty grasping your premise. :huh:

I apologise if I seem dense but if the builder is building a WhatTF WhatIF, why does it matter whether the details are correct? The actual aircraft did n't exist in that form/markings/weapon load/insert any other variable here so why does it matter?

Let's just say, a modeller wishes to build an F-14 with AIM-120's. He/she might ask did they ever fly with that weapon aboard and receive the answer that, no, they did n't. In this example, they mount them anyway because they like the way they look but what I want to know is, why not just add them anyway in the first place? Why bother asking the question if you know you are going to add them even if they are n't authentic? It puzzles me. I can see the sense in asking the question if you don't already know whether they were used or not and then using that knowledge to build an accurate F-14 but just asking for the sake of asking does amount to wasting folks time in my book. -_-

Another example might be building an F-14 in say, Mexican Navy colours where the builder asks what FS colours they should use. It does n't matter! Use whatever you want, the real airframe never flew in that guise so why is anyone bothered what colours the model is finished in.......

I can see why modellers allow their artistic desires and imagination to create fictional "What-Ifs" but asking other folk questions about their fantasy projects seems perverse to me.

Surely there are more than enough interesting/colourful/historically relevant real-world subjects to build without ever having to resort to What-Ifs? :blink:

Oh well, each to their own.

One answer might be to include the fact that the model is to be a What-If in the title bar of the original post? In that way, if someone does n't wish to waste their time they can simply skip the thread, no harm done......... ;)

Good luck in your quest for answers to this thorny question. I will read other's responses with interest.

Cheers,

Edited July 9, 2012 by geedubelyer

[erik_g]

Getting the details right are what makes it more interesting.

The problem with "what-iffs" is that no one can say that this or that detail is right, when you take that leap out of the boundaries of making a replica of something that actually existed, YOU are the one responsible for what is right and what is not.

Aircraft are in many ways customized to specs provided by the customer, which means that larger and smaller details can differ. Some times it´s small and relatively simple things like different radios, which means different shape and placement of antennas on the fuselage. So a comment saying that "The XYZ-12B Dominator II never had that TACAN antenna on the nose, only XYZ-12A's had them" is quite superfluous since we don´t know if the XYZ-12B in Bordurian service actually would have them if they would have flown the Dominator II. Maybe the Bordurian B's also would have lacked the B-versions RWR-receivers too, since they were too sensitive to export at the time? :-)

But of course, larger errors, like shape issues would probably still apply to a what-if. If you build a Syldavian J29 Tunnan out of AZ's kit, you still end up with a bad looking nose. But you could always claim that it´s a Carreidas C103, designed, and built to Syldavian specs. All similarities with the SAAB J29 are purely coincidental - and, the nose is all different, so it´s not at all the same aircraft :-)

[Rex]

I like to look at Whiffs,,,,,I don't build any (well, not on purpose),,,,,,,but, I have often said that I will stand and look at them all day long

I think this is a "flip side of the coin" deal

After reading 237 posts in the different "accurate" modeler threads that basically say "it's just a model, forget trying to get anything accurate",and "it looks like a pitot to me",,,,,,why should those same posters care one tiny bit about the pitot size for some guy's Whiffer?

so, I think the fact that people "seem to go quiet" is a show of politeness,,,,,,,,think about it,,,,,,,they could have posted what they thought when they found out it was for a Whiffer

When the world changes and those hated "accu-nastys" post more help for the Whiffers,,,,,,,maybe the "it's GoodNuffs" ** will stop jumping into serious discussions, just to say that they don't care about that specific discussion

**,,,,,,or insert "No Detail For You" word of your choice

[niart17]

I think I understand the premise of his question. I didn't realize there was animosity per se, but I can see where his frustrations might be. Let's take an example of a modeler who wants to what if an updated F-4, and add modern things things like conforming fuel tanks and a modern ACES II ejection seat or something like that. So he asks questions about certain details of an ACES II seat because he wants it to look believable. Or he might ask something about an F-4s wheel wells because he wants that look right. These details have a definate reality, and just because they are thrown on to a non-real aircraft doesn't mean that the builder's question about accuracy isn't warrented. To me, part of the lure of what-ifs is taking reality and blending it with fiction. If it's all fiction then it's not nearly as interesting as if there is a bit of reality mixed in. So to me, I don't see this as a thorny question at all and don't feel they are "wasting folks time" with perverse questions. But that's just my opinion.

Bill

[JasonW]

Hi Dave,

I'm having a little bit of difficulty grasping your premise. :huh:

I apologise if I seem dense but if the builder is building a WhatTF WhatIF, why does it matter whether the details are correct? The actual aircraft did n't exist in that form/markings/weapon load/insert any other variable here so why does it matter?

Let's just say, a modeller wishes to build an F-14 with AIM-120's. He/she might ask did they ever fly with that weapon aboard and receive the answer that, no, they did n't. In this example, they mount them anyway because they like the way they look but what I want to know is, why not just add them anyway in the first place? Why bother asking the question if you know you are going to add them even if they are n't authentic? It puzzles me. I can see the sense in asking the question if you don't already know whether they were used or not and then using that knowledge to build an accurate F-14 but just asking for the sake of asking does amount to wasting folks time in my book. -_-

Another example might be building an F-14 in say, Mexican Navy colours where the builder asks what FS colours they should use. It does n't matter! Use whatever you want, the real airframe never flew in that guise so why is anyone bothered what colours the model is finished in.......

I can see why modellers allow their artistic desires and imagination to create fictional "What-Ifs" but asking other folk questions about their fantasy projects seems perverse to me.

Surely there are more than enough interesting/colourful/historically relevant real-world subjects to build without ever having to resort to What-Ifs? :blink:

Oh well, each to their own.

One answer might be to include the fact that the model is to be a What-If in the title bar of the original post? In that way, if someone does n't wish to waste their time they can simply skip the thread, no harm done......... ;)

Good luck in your quest for answers to this thorny question. I will read other's responses with interest.

Cheers,

It matters to some builders because they may be building a what-if that is directly related to an actual aircraft. Not everybody is taking a specific airframe and plastering any old decals and made up paint scheme on it. Some folks like to build a retired aircraft and do a what-if it had been kept around in service with an update program (I did this with an A-6 kit....). Some might be building a fictitious aircraft but want it to have a legitimate paint scheme. Some might build the losing aircraft in a program (I did this with the F-20 and YF-17 Cobra) and want it to look as close to the actual aircraft in service (F-16) that it was originally competing against.

Seriously, parts of your post sort of come across with the tone that the OP was referring to.

[HOLMES]

Gosh !!

Edited July 9, 2012 by HOLMES

[Big Texan]

I like "What ifs" because there isn't any boundaries! You're free to be creative. One of the best "What ifs" I've seen is an F7F Tigercat painted up in Navy gull gray and white scheme. It really looked cool. You don't have to be a rivet counter, expertten, or whatever to appreciate a quality build and scheme. Who cares if it never existed, that's the beauty of "What if" and the fun of it.

[geedubelyer]

Let's take an example of a modeler who wants to what if an updated F-4, and add modern things things like conforming fuel tanks and a modern ACES II ejection seat or something like that. So he asks questions about certain details of an ACES II seat because he wants it to look believable.

Hi Bill, this is one of those examples that I don't get. The F-4 never used the ACES II in any variant as far as I'm aware so why would the details of that seat have any bearing on the build? It won't look any more or less realistic if the seat looks correct. It's still fantasy either way is n't it?

he might ask something about an F-4s wheel wells because he wants that look right.

Ok, this bit I get. The builder wants the gear to look correct. I can understand this part because the F-4 gear is actually fitted to an F-4. Whether or not the airframe wears fictional markings or carries a fictional weapon load, it still has the correct landing gear so the builder wants that to look right. To me, this would n't be a waste of time even though the model is a What-If. Now if the builder was supplanting the F-4 gear with something from a completely different aircraft type like an F-14 for example and wished to know about the Tomcat gear, that falls back into the first category for me. Any precise detail of the F-14 gear seems irrelevant to the finished model as it was never fitted to the Phantom so why does it need to be accurate in this context? :wacko:

It matters to some builders because they may be building a what-if that is directly related to an actual aircraft. Not everybody is taking a specific airframe and plastering any old decals and made up paint scheme on it. Some folks like to build a retired aircraft and do a what-if it had been kept around in service with an update program (I did this with an A-6 kit....). Some might be building a fictitious aircraft but want it to have a legitimate paint scheme. Some might build the losing aircraft in a program (I did this with the F-20 and YF-17 Cobra) and want it to look as close to the actual aircraft in service (F-16) that it was originally competing against.

Seriously, parts of your post sort of come across with the tone that the OP was referring to.

Hi Jason, good to hear your opinion. It appears that you quite like What-Ifs and that is entirely your prerogative but it does n't mean everyone is necessarily as enthusiastic about them as you might be. Personally, I have nothing against What-Ifs regardless how my previous comments might have sounded. I've found many What=Ifs attractive to look at. FAR148's F-15's are a treat to see and I often peep at the lengthy What-If profile thread. If a modeller chooses to spend his or her time building something from their imagination then that is entirely up to them and I'm happy that they gain enjoyment from the hobby. That said, if someone asks a question which I then spend my own time answering in an attempt to be helpful only to find that the subject is a What-If, I do consider it to be a waste of my time. Sorry if you find that offensive but it's how I feel. If it were possible I would go out of my way to help someone out with something I knew about on an actual airframe but as I've explained, I struggle to see the necessity of actual facts on fictional parts of a What-If.

Of course, alot of this can be avoided if the OP states somewhere in the title that the build is a What-If. By adopting that simple strategy folk who are less interested can avoid the thread and move on without missing a beat. :)

I hope you continue to build and enjoy your What-Ifs.

Cheers,

[Jinxter13]

I can understand get the details right, [but] "What if", more or less knocks accuracy toward the base craft right out the window on most of the build. The cockpit may be the only area that needs to hold to the original. Even that can be jockeyed around some. With what if the builder is allowed all kinds of latitude and is free to take artistic expression to the outer limits of his imagination and beyond.

[dmk0210]

I apologise if I seem dense but if the builder is building a WhatTF WhatIF, why does it matter whether the details are correct? The actual aircraft did n't exist in that form/markings/weapon load/insert any other variable here so why does it matter?

First of all no apology necessary. Thanks for contributing to the discussion. :)

Say for example I'm building an F-14 with the premise that the F-14 never retired and was still operational today. In this case, one can surmise that it was fielded with the AIM-120 eventually and/or perhaps some targeting pods and some guided bombs that were not yet in service when the Tomcat was retired.

So it starts out with the question: "What If the Tomcat was never retired?" The model is then one possible answer to the question. As such, many modelers would like it to be a reasonable answer to the question, based on facts in evidence.

A question may come up about how the weapons and pods would be mounted on an F-14. What type of rails, mounts, etc would be reasonable. Things like pylon weight capacity and weapons combination may also be in question.

There is a difference between a realistic "What-if" and an unrealistic one. Loading a 2000lb GBU on a pylon that can only support 500lbs would be unrealistic. Loading an AIM-120D on that same pylon might be a realistic representation of something that "might have" happened, if...

So it's the difference between a model of an aircraft that could have been if funding wasn't cut, as opposed to an aircraft that could have happened if the sky was purple and pigs could fly. ;)

Edited July 9, 2012 by dmk0210

[geedubelyer]

Hi again Dave, thanks for that example. I think what you describe is perfectly understandable and valid. I appreciate you taking the time to illustrate your point so effectively.

Now, in that example above, if you had made the What-If portion of the thread title immeadiately obvious then it would be easy for someone to choose whether to read/contribute to the thread or not. ;)

I hope you find the relevant answers to your queries and look forward to seeing the finished modern Tomcat

Cheers,

[GreyGhost]

Some folks, although building a "What-If" still want an accurate representaion of a certain timeframe ... Say you want to build a VF-92 Silver Kings F-14, they were decommissioned before a transition from the F-4J could happen but a builder might just want to have an accurate Tomcat circa 1976 ... So, a what if can be made to a specific accuracy with just a difference in markings, etc ...

-Gregg - (who's still contemplating what an VF-24 Renegades or VF-211 Checkmates F-4 Phantom might look like ...)

[TaiidanTomcat]

There is actually a lot of different types of Whiff models. Some are "almost was" or just a simple scheme/markings change, while others are complete fantasy and there is a lot of middle ground in between those extremes. Others are so subtle that even very keen observers are forced to do double takes or think about what they are seeing exactly. Some are Whiffs right out of the box intended or not, (lots of Soviet era kits fall into this category)Some models become what ifs after more research comes to light. and some kits are "just plane wrong" no matter how accurate they are trying to be. I have even seen resin editions that are so poorly done whatever you put them on becomes a whiff. Whiffers have their rules too. Shape issues still bug me. So before I build it "all wrong" It has to look "all right" to me.

Tom Clancy said that Fiction is harder to write because it "has to make sense" and some whiffers take their work very seriously in this regard and come up with elaborate and well researched back stories and really think about what a 1946 painted flying saucer would look like. in some ways its tougher than regular research.

Alvis actually makes whiffs that are funny and satirical which is really artistically clever and hard to achieve. Its not easy to make inside jokes with a model!

So I guess that like science fiction, there is a "hard sci-fi" and a "soft sci-fi" I tend toward the soft. I like thinking of my own ideas, and though functionality is important, Sometimes a flying tank is what you need.

I am a proud what if builder. I think there is some animosity, some people say "hmmm" and others go on tirades, I have experienced both. however there are a lot of positive remarks from people as well. I overheard some real nastiness once when one of my What If models placed in a local contest over someones "perfectly built and researched model"

The only thing that irks me sometimes is when I can't participate in a GB with a What If model when I feel I have something fun, or even a little plausible to add to the myriad of models in the gallery. Having said that, I still respect their decision.

I am still amazed that me building a little plane and having a great deal of fun can cause genuine anger in people. Who would have thought a twelve inch model could get such a reaction? Sometimes what ifs seem to upset that very slight sense of order people think their little universe needs. or worse yet that I "ruined" a perfectly good model. If I wanted it and my fun ruined, I would have given it to you. I don't walk by others models and feel enraged, and if i did I would wonder what the hell is going on in my life that is causing that.

Ironically reality is usually far stranger than fiction.

Edited July 9, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[HOLMES]

:D

Edited July 9, 2012 by HOLMES

[niart17]

...That said, if someone asks a question which I then spend my own time answering in an attempt to be helpful only to find that the subject is a What-If, I do consider it to be a waste of my time. Sorry if you find that offensive but it's how I feel. If it were possible I would go out of my way to help someone out with something I knew about on an actual airframe but as I've explained, I struggle to see the necessity of actual facts on fictional parts of a What-If...

You do realize that ALL of these models are just small representations and ALL of them have flaws when held against the real subject don't you? I mean, do you ask someone who is asking for research help on a model what their skill level is to insure that they are technically able to incorporate that oh so valuable advice in their model? You know, just so you don't "waste your time" helping them only to find out they don't have the skill necessary to build the model right.

At first I didn't think the OP was correct in saying there was animosity towards whiffs, but now I see the attitude does indeed exists. It's pretty sad I must say. To me, (I understand it's just my opinion and you don't have to share it) but to me if a modeler asks me what the official color purple of the Joker's goon cars were from the first Keaten Batman movie was because he wants to paint an F-14 that color, then as a fellow modeler; if I knew that information or was able to find it I'd feel very happy to pass that along. I don't see the need to judge his intentions or ability to use that information. But I guess some modelers are below the need of help from some others.

Oh well, it is what it is.

Bill

[Wayne S]

Hi Bill, this is one of those examples that I don't get. The F-4 never used the ACES II in any variant as far as I'm aware so why would the details of that seat have any bearing on the build? It won't look any more or less realistic if the seat looks correct. It's still fantasy either way is n't it?

Guess it depends on who is asking or replying to the question. If the OP of the WIFF is asking on accuracy/information of a ACES II maybe said person just wants the information and or knowledge, or would like to have the ACES II as a "component" of the model to be accurate.

Just because "hate those words together" someone is making a WIFF project, does not necessarily mean every single component and or part is worthless to them.

Like I wrote above, even when someone is doing a project and asking questions, at times knowledge/ information might be all they are after and the project its self might actually be irrelevant to the question.

I guess, one way to put it into perspective is to keep it out of the airplane side of the discussion.

Instance, Person is building a 69 Mustang Mach1 and asked for accuracy of a Mopar 426 Hemi that they decided to put in the vehicle as a WIFF. Now is there is there really a problem with it? Does the Mopar 426 Hemi still exist in the real world. Certainly making said Hemi look more or less realistic as a big factor on the project is one wants it to be accurate, "specially" since they put brain power on that part of the project of wanting to do it in the first place.

Is that understandable?

Now a reason why I used the above is,,,,,,, the other side of the coin a WIFF project might get into, with a discussion. Now the person is dealing in a matter, where they get blind sided from the Left and the Right by diehard Mopar/Hemi fans and diehard Ford/Mustang fans.

God forbid asking a single question could enter into many pages of worthless non needed debate.

Picture this. A person asked a simple question "What color is the shaft of an F-15E's joystick". Then is found out it is going into a F-14 or 109K.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Wayne S

[TaiidanTomcat]

I LOVE TOMCATS

You make a good point about individual artistry as well.

[Kevan Vogler]

Different WHIFF modelers approach it differently.

Those who ask if this that or the other aspect is accurate are the sort that like to walk the line and make people to a double take.

Why ask if an aircraft can carry a certain type of missile in reality? Simple, they want to be sure they're arming it with something WHIFF.

Why ask about the FS, or other standard paint numbers, in a certain scheme? Again it's simple, they don't want the scheme to be the WHIFF part.

There's no black and white in WHIFF and some really like to blur the line. When a WHIFF modeler asks questions like that, they're simply working out how and where to blur that line to achieve the double take reaction.

[HOLMES]

.. :D

Edited July 9, 2012 by HOLMES

[xmh53wrench]

THE HOLMES HAS SPOKEN!!!!!

ALL HAIL THE HOLMES....LONG LIVE THE HOLMES!!!!

[dmk0210]

One answer might be to include the fact that the model is to be a What-If in the title bar of the original post? In that way, if someone does n't wish to waste their time they can simply skip the thread, no harm done.........

Now, in that example above, if you had made the What-If portion of the thread title immeadiately obvious then it would be easy for someone to choose whether to read/contribute to the thread or not.

This is the part I don't understand. I mean if I was building a Hasegawa Eggplane, I could see my question not being taken seriously. But if I was asking about something about a model similar to the example I had described, how is that different from the model of an actual aircraft.

What if I'm building an aircraft in correct markings, correct loadout, for a real squadron, but with a fictitious serial number. Where does one draw the line where is it not worth the time to help someone?

Edited July 9, 2012 by dmk0210

[xmh53wrench]

.......I am currently sacrificing a virgin to appease the HOLMES......

[dmk0210]

Tom Clancy said that Fiction is harder to write because it "has to make sense" and some whiffers take their work very seriously in this regard and come up with elaborate and well researched back stories ... in some ways its tougher than regular research.

That is very true I think. My WIFFs are more like this, something within the grasp of plausibility, rather than something way out there. I think it can be a lot more thought provoking.

Edited July 9, 2012 by dmk0210

[Neo]

Im not a rivet counter and sometime what i built can be considered a wiff ! Like using a F-14D to build FV-111 Miss molly since this is the kit i have in stock and i dont want to buy another one.

But to me some questions are still relevent i.e builing a CF-14 i would like to know the FS of the canadian Airforce so to make it plausible/acurate since this is a what if canadians had F-14

I saw in one of the comments that this was wasting peoples time to answer these question ...well if you feel your wasting your time then just dont answer it.

Edited July 9, 2012 by Neo