Battle of Britain Spitfire markings

[aidy]

Ok, I build mostly jets so I don't have much references on this and my Google-ing has not brought me the answers I seek. I am currently building Tamiya's Spitfire Mk I in BoB markings which I hope to mask and paint and have a few questions about the markings:

1: What was the colour of the 3-letter codes on the fuselage sides? Was it Sky?

2: Tamiya's decals for DW-O gives no serial numbers. Was this accurate for the aircraft?

Hope someone can help out. Thanks!

[Jennings]

1. Medium Sea Grey

2. Yes

[aidy]

That was fast! Thanks Jennings!

[crazydon]

Also, if your using the kit decals for DW-O 2 things to do. 1st, when you apply the fin flash reverse it. It was painted backwards on this machine, pictures have confrimed this over the years.

2nd, use the normal size roundels on the wings, not the smaller ones Tamiya calls out for, they goofed there

[ChesshireCat]

In one of the very first issues of Fine Scale Modeler there was a research project done on the Spitfire hanging in Chicago. More importantly the author calls out the correct roundel sizes and types for the eras involved, plus the correct camo patterns as they changed out. Article is well worth the read.

gary

[Edgar]

There are a few things to remember:-

1/. As far as I'm aware, no colour photo of DW-O has ever surfaced, so the "blue first" fin flash is almost certainly relying on somebody's interpretation of a black and white photo. I'm not getting drawn into a discussion (argument) about this, since it's unlikely that anyone can say for sure.

2/. Some early Spitfires had their serial numbers painted at the top of the fin, rather than on the fuselage.

3/. Early upper wing roundels consisted of 4 rings, red, white, blue and yellow, each 8 inches wide. When Squadrons were told to turn them into red/blue only, some simply painted out the outer yellow ring with camouflage paints, leaving a roundel 40" across, and widened the red and blue circles to eliminate the white, leaving a red circle 16" in diameter. Although possibly not correct for DW-O, Tamiya's "small "roundels will be correct for some other airframes.

Edgar

[Jennings]

1/. As far as I'm aware, no colour photo of DW-O has ever surfaced, so the "blue first" fin flash is almost certainly relying on somebody's interpretation of a black and white photo. I'm not getting drawn into a discussion (argument) about this, since it's unlikely that anyone can say for sure.

It's clearly backward, as you can easily see the color progression on the other a/c in the photos of them flying in formation. Unless all of those had it backward, and the tones of grey corresponding to red and blue changed from the fuselage to the tail.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Jennings

[crazydon]

It's clearly backward, as you can easily see the color progression on the other a/c in the photos of them flying in formation. Unless all of those had it backward, and the tones of grey corresponding to red and blue changed from the fuselage to the tail.

Agreed, I've stared at photo's of DW-O for years and you can clearly see the fin flash is different from the other 2 aircraft in the same formation

[Steve N]

This one looks pretty conclusive to me. The fin flash on DW-O is obviously the reverse of DW-K, and since the lighter color (excuse me, "colour") is repeated in the center of the fuselage roundel I think it's safe to assume that it's red.

[Edgar]

And, therein, lies the problem; "It's safe to assume" could be inscribed on the headstones of dozens of researchers, over the years (including mine.) As I was told, "Never assume, always check." The only thing, with those photos, that can be said, with absolute certainty, is that the fin flashes look different. Anything that follows that is supposition, aka guesswork.

You expect red and blue, so you see red and blue, but the wrong way round. Yes, it could be, after all erks are human, therefore fallible, so they could have painted one airframe (from a complement of 16) wrong, and the Squadron C.O., Warrant Officers, Flight Sergeants, and sundry N.C.O.s didn't notice, or didn't have time to put it right. Note, please, that I'm not saying that it wasn't reversed, because I simply don't know, but neither does anyone else.

Salutary lesson no.1:- I built a model of a Spitfire 21, with a red stripe on its fuselage; one month later, I met the painter of the original airframe, who told me (among other items) about the stripes on the wings and tail (invisible in photos,) and the unpainted engine covers.

Salutary lesson no.2:- For years I told everbody that all Spitfires, throughout the war, had Sutton harnesses, then, tucked away in a modification leaflet, in a file, I found that the low-backed XVI had an early version of the so-called "Q" harness, because a Sutton wouldn't fit.

Salutary lesson no.3:- There's a Spitfire IX in a museum in Malta, which was pulled out of the sea, and rebuilt. I excitedly told modellers about the wings being different from everything that we "knew" about Mk.IX wings; several months later I found that the airframe had been fitted with a set of post-war wings from a XVI.

[Steve N]

I would agree that if you're talking "absolute certainty," the lighter stripe could easily by Pea Green in that photo. I'm just saying that it would seem the most likely scenario in this particular case is that the usual red and blue have simply been reversed. As you say, erks are human, and I'm sure all of us have gotten a decal or two backwards or upside down.

I'm curious..were all known photos of DW-O taken on the same occaision (a quick internet search only turned up the shot I posted and one other obviously taken on the same flight)? It's entirely possible that the (supposed) incorrect fin flash was only that way for a short time, and rectified after the photos were taken.

SN

Edited July 15, 2012 by Steve N

[Jennings]

It could be peachy mauve, but we have to go from the evidence in front of us, coupled with the supporting knowledge of related things. I'm the last person to state that anything regarding color can be determined with absolute certainty from a b&w photo. But lacking *any* evidence to the contrary, in this case I think the available evidence supports the conclusion that the blue stripe was leading in that aircraft at that time, on that day, in that place. It may have been changed before the next sortie, but we'll never know. Mistakes, even really big ones, happen all the time. The Romney campaign put out a nationwide ad recently with "America" spelled "Amercia".

[Edgar]

I would agree that if you're talking "absolute certainty," the lighter stripe could easily by Pea Green in that photo. I'm just saying that it would seem the most likely scenario in this particular case is that the usual red and blue have simply been reversed. As you say, erks are human, and I'm sure all of us have gotten a decal or two backwards or upside down.

I agree, really, I do; all I advise is caution against talking in rigid absolutes. The order, for the yellow circle on the roundel plus the fin flash, was issued on May 1st, 1940, with a clarification, that the fin flash need not cover the whole fin, on the 11th. On August 11th., the dimensions, for the fin flash, were fixed at 3 stripes 8" wide, 27" high, giving a "square" of 27" x 24", and it looks as though DW-O has been/is being painted to conform with that.

Whenever the fin flash is mentioned, the order either states "red leading," or "blue nearest the rudder post, but not on the hinges," which are a bit difficult to misinterpret, and the Squadron appear to be one who tried, manfully, to fulfil the order to paint 4' letters on a Spitfire fuselage, so disobeying an order is somewhat out of character.

It looks as though the escorting aircraft date from (at least) May, but DW-O from August, which seems odd for an early airframe, with its serial on the fin, unless it had been pulled out from reserve (it did happen, and there was no real shortage of airframes during the Battle.)

It's also worth remembering that there were two reds ("dull" & "bright") and two blues (same description) in the RAF's inventory during the 1930s; dull was for night bombers, and bright for day fighters.

I'm curious..were all known photos of DW-O taken on the same occaision (a quick internet search only turned up the shot I posted and one other obviously taken on the same flight)? It's entirely possible that the (supposed) incorrect fin flash was only that way for a short time, and rectified after the photos were taken.

Probably (given the formation, it looks like a classic publicity shot.) RAF personnel were banned, through a couple of Air Ministry Orders, from having a camera on-station, much less using it, which is why BoB photos are so rare. The orders were later relaxed, slightly, so that photos could be taken, with the Station Commander's prior permission. If they are Air Ministry photos, they're likely to be held by the Imperial War Museum.

Edgar

[Edgar]

It could be peachy mauve,

If you can find it, in the RAF's inventory of the time, I'll yield to that possibility; until then, you're on your own.

Edgar

[Steve N]

I thought Peachy Mauve was reserved for Rufes in the Aleutians.... B)

[Ham]

Peachy Mauve sounds like the name of a Bond girl. Sorry, couldn't help myself.