toadwbg Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Guns are a tool. They didn't pull their own trigger. An SOB is to blame, maybe his parents or lack of. Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The person with the concealed weapon would have to get pretty close and they would have to know what they were doing. Also, they are putting themselves in quite some risk legally, especially if things don't work out. Rambo may need a lawyer.... John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) This is my bread and butter for the line of work I'm currenty doing and have played through this scenario in my head multiple times....there isn't a good solution, and I train for this. For your average guy with a concealed weapons permit the chances of him doing more harm than good are very likely. A quote you'll hear in Law Enforcement circles is it is better to be a good witness than a dead hero. Being hit wit a round wearing body armor in close distance will knock you off your feet, it feels like a jackhammer hit you full force. However, the dark theater with panicked people and CS gas? No bueno. My heart goes out to the hundreds if not thousands who will be affected by this. What irks me, is the fact they're reporting a four month old and six year old kid were taken to the hospital. Kids should not have been there. Link to post Share on other sites
Fly-n-hi Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The idea that "lax" gun laws are to blame is ridiculous and simple minded. The UK, as one of many examples, has some of the most strict "gun laws" and their crime rates are soaring. We live in a country (US) where an estimated 66,000,000 people own guns yet only a handful of them use their guns to commit crimes. Relatively speaking, gun crime in the US is very low. In fact, stats prove over and over that CCW laws reduce crimes in virtually all cases and pro gun communities have lower crime rates as well. One of the reasons the theater massacre, Colombine, VT and the Gabriel Giffords shootings make headlines in the way that they do is because they, in reality, happen very rarely. Would a CCW holder have been able to stop the Theater Massacre? I don't know. What I do know is that there wasn't one person in that theater who was able to fight back. If you choose to go out into public without the ability to protect yourself then you really can't blame anyone else when you get victimized. At least a CCW could have tried to make a difference. To the guy who said that a CCW holder would have made the situation worse: 12 people are dead and 50 wounded. How do you make that situation worse? Unbelievable. I think Thomas Jefferson said it best: "I'd rather have complete liberty and accept that some people will abuse that liberty than to not have liberty at all." The bottom line, I hate to say, is that some people are bad and no laws will change that. Link to post Share on other sites
fulcrum1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 To the guy who said that a CCW holder would have made the situation worse: 12 people are dead and 50 wounded. How do you make that situation worse? Unbelievable. Have you ever been through CS? A closed quarter live fire shoot house? At night? Fired under stress? Dealt with a crazy individual with a well thought out plan? Can hit a target at 50 feet in those coniditions and be able to close the distance on him before he gets up? It's tough. Link to post Share on other sites
11bee Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Think of all of the suicide bombings that have been reported just in the last couple of months. But hey, it happened here so "it's what we do". I am truely saddened people feel this way. Bill Great point, we aren't as bad as Iraq or Syria. That makes me feel better about things. You can throw out examples of mass murder in any developed country but those were truly exceptions and the statistics bear this out. In this country, horrible events like this are pretty much routine. In 2010, the UK had approx 600 murders from all causes. Here in America, we had nearly 13,000 in the same time period, of which nearly 75% involved guns. Still want to make the case that we are no worse than everyone else? If you really want to make our statistics look better, maybe we should just reclassify the US as an undeveloped country. That way our track record vrs our peers improves immensely. We could put a cool slogan at all of our aiports: "Welcome to the United States of America, we are safer than Somalia" Of course if one points any of this out, I guess that makes them anti-American. Link to post Share on other sites
IrishGreek Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 What irks me, is the fact they're reporting a four month old and six year old kid were taken to the hospital. Kids should not have been there. I agree, too late for little ones to be seeing a movie, but an update as well. The baby was released from the hospital. Release of baby Link to post Share on other sites
Big Texan Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 While I generally agree with most of your other comments about responsibility, the idea of a person carrying a concealed weapon in a movie theater and trying to respond to last night's tragedy is a bit shaky. You've got a dark theater, hundreds of people, and a crazy guy suddenly breaks in through a fire door and sets off a gas grenade, and then in the confusion starts randomly shooting people with an assault rifle. So an armed civilian is then going to have to make their way through this mayhem of panicking people and attempt to shoot this guy? Sounds like a recipe for more problems. The person with the concealed weapon would have to get pretty close and they would have to know what they were doing. Also, they are putting themselves in quite some risk legally, especially if things don't work out. Rambo may need a lawyer.... John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com) John, in this situation I agree to a point. It's frustrating to say the least and I don't want to be a panicked sheep! That being said, it would have been difficult in a dark theater with crowded people and CS gas. I think there would have been an opportunity to hit him, even with him wearing a vest. A small .45 would have put him on the ground and knock the wind out of him. You could hit him while he was re-arming or changing weapons. It does suck to no end, but I would have not been caught flat footed and unarmed. It's also what he would have least expected. Link to post Share on other sites
huntermountain Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 My thoughts go out to all those affected by this tragedy. As for the gun laws. I will never shoot someone, as I wouldn't know how to get hold of a gun. Outside of my military service, I have never handled a gun. I have never seen a civilian with a gun. I'm pretty sure I won't get killed by a gun. That guns don't fire themselves is a valid point. Morons fire guns. It might not be a bad idea not to supply those morons with guns. But than again, guns are one of Belgium's best know export products. And we're not to picky about who those guns are for. but one thing is sure: One man's freedom ends, where another man's freedom begins. Link to post Share on other sites
ross blackford Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 A fortnight ago tonight 18 year old Thomas Kelly was walking down a street in Kings Cross, Sydney's red light district with his girlfriend and talking to a mate on his mobile phone when he was king hit from behind and fell to the pavement hitting his head and suffering an inoperable brain injury. After several days his parents had to the make the agonizing decision to turn off his life support, he would never have been anything more than a brain dead vegetable. On Wednesday evening police arrested his alleged attacker at a sports oval in inner western Sydney. He is another 18 year old who was refused bail but is going to apply for bail next Wednesday. Personally I hope it's refused again but then I'm not the law. Yesterday Thomas returned to the chapel of the King's School at North Parramatta where just last year he was an excellent student with a zest for life and an indomitable determination. It was his funeral service that he returned for in a casket. It was also his first trip(and last) to the Cross. No concealed (or otherwise) weapon could ever have saved Thomas. The lout who hit him had not 5 minutes earlier king hit another innocent man walking down the same street and within 45 minutes after delivering the blow to Thomas he also attacked 2 other men in the same area in the same way. He's been charged with one count of murder and 3 of assault causing actual bodily harm. I'm praying for the victims of the picture show shootings and their families but also for young Thomas and his girlfriend and family and other friends. I'm not sure that CCW is the answer to anything really. 16 years ago there was a massacre at Port Arthur in Tasmania when a crazy cut loose with several assault rifles, (a bit like Brevik in Norway) killing among 35 people, the father of a school mate of mine. Could a CW have gotten anywhere within range of assault rifles; and those crimes were committed in broad daylight, how much harder in a closed darkened theatre with a CS gas grenade or 2 thrown in for good measure and the shooter wearing body armour? There's always been violence in this world and always will be but carrying a concealed weapon I don't believe is the answer, especially when the bad guys are getting hold of things like grenade launchers and scope equipped long range assault rifles. Ross. Link to post Share on other sites
vince14 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 The idea that "lax" gun laws are to blame is ridiculous and simple minded. The UK, as one of many examples, has some of the most strict "gun laws" and their crime rates are soaring. Utterly, utterly false. The latest crime stats from the UK show that last year; - Overall crime fell by 4.2% - Homicide down by 13.8% - Attempted murder down by 7.6% - Firearms offences down by 15.8% A whole 20 seconds typing 'UK crime rates' into Google would have told you the truth. Vince Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 ...In 2010, the UK had approx 600 murders from all causes. Here in America, we had nearly 13,000 in the same time period, of which nearly 75% involved guns.... Population of U.K. = approx 62.2 million; Population of U.S. = approx 314 million. Still WAAAY too many but it puts it a little more in perspective doesn't it. And just maybe it has nothing to do with gun laws. I mean surely gun laws have gotten more strict than in the past right? So why would there be this huge increase in violent gun crimes it's the lack of gun restrictions? HMMMMM...perhaps the whacko criminal minds don't care about gun laws. I don't think you are anti-American per se. I just think you are placing human faults in the wrong place and blaming the wrong thing for this senseless killing. Bill Link to post Share on other sites
Big Texan Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 A fortnight ago tonight 18 year old Thomas Kelly was walking down a street in Kings Cross, Sydney's red light district with his girlfriend and talking to a mate on his mobile phone when he was king hit from behind and fell to the pavement hitting his head and suffering an inoperable brain injury. After several days his parents had to the make the agonizing decision to turn off his life support, he would never have been anything more than a brain dead vegetable. On Wednesday evening police arrested his alleged attacker at a sports oval in inner western Sydney. He is another 18 year old who was refused bail but is going to apply for bail next Wednesday. Personally I hope it's refused again but then I'm not the law. Yesterday Thomas returned to the chapel of the King's School at North Parramatta where just last year he was an excellent student with a zest for life and an indomitable determination. It was his funeral service that he returned for in a casket. It was also his first trip(and last) to the Cross. No concealed (or otherwise) weapon could ever have saved Thomas. The lout who hit him had not 5 minutes earlier king hit another innocent man walking down the same street and within 45 minutes after delivering the blow to Thomas he also attacked 2 other men in the same area in the same way. He's been charged with one count of murder and 3 of assault causing actual bodily harm. I'm praying for the victims of the picture show shootings and their families but also for young Thomas and his girlfriend and family and other friends. I'm not sure that CCW is the answer to anything really. 16 years ago there was a massacre at Port Arthur in Tasmania when a crazy cut loose with several assault rifles, (a bit like Brevik in Norway) killing among 35 people, the father of a school mate of mine. Could a CW have gotten anywhere within range of assault rifles; and those crimes were committed in broad daylight, how much harder in a closed darkened theatre with a CS gas grenade or 2 thrown in for good measure and the shooter wearing body armour? There's always been violence in this world and always will be but carrying a concealed weapon I don't believe is the answer, especially when the bad guys are getting hold of things like grenade launchers and scope equipped long range assault rifles. Ross. Ross, I'm sorry for your pain and your loss. I respect your opinion. I have to disagree. I believe if one or more, were armed last night, he would have been stopped and the numbers greatly reduced. This young man knew he would be walking into a herd of sheep. Had there been a few sheep dogs mixed in that crowd, it would have made a difference. It has already been proven so. I can think of several examples. The first one is the state of Florida. Several years ago car-jacking was all the rage and some people were being killed. When Florida passed CCW laws, that crime in particular dried up. In Texas, convenient stores/gas stations, were robbed daily all over the place. When Texas passed CCW, that crime came to a screeching halt. In fact, nation wide, violent crime in the U.S. is way down. Why? Because of laws like the Castle Doctrine, CCW, etc. Places where violent crime is high, are places with strict gun control. The numbers bear out the facts. A criminal will always attack the weak, but they won't bother if there's a chance of them losing their life. Yep, a few "sheep dogs" last night could have made a world of differenc. Link to post Share on other sites
ChesshireCat Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Utterly, utterly false. The latest crime stats from the UK show that last year; - Overall crime fell by 4.2% - Homicide down by 13.8% - Attempted murder down by 7.6% - Firearms offences down by 15.8% A whole 20 seconds typing 'UK crime rates' into Google would have told you the truth. Vince one thing that every good travel agent will tell you when in London is to not walk the streets late at night. Is that as bad as Detroit at 11:00pm? I doubt it even comes close! The southside of Chicago has a minimum of ten shooting each and every night, and Chicago has some of the strictest gun laws in North America. The town I live in is realtively crime free compaired to the three I mentioned. I can walk the streets at midnight without an issue, but may get stopped by a cop to see who I am. (no problem with that). Crime rates in general are easilly manipulated to server their purpose. An example is the crime free city of Chicago or even New York City gary Link to post Share on other sites
ross blackford Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Ah yes, Florida. Where did CCW laws get Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin? That Martin attacked Zimmerman is only Zimmerman's side of the story. We don't have and will never be able to get Maritn's side now. There are those that say Martin attacked Zimmerman and those who say he didn't. Maybe Zman's demeanour provoked the situation if Martin did attack him. We don't know if he pulled his piece just to show he had it on him and then found out that Martin had martial arts training and didn't appreciate having a piece pulled on him when he was breaking no law, just walking down the street talking to his girlfriend on the mobile. Now Martin is dead and Zman on a murder charge. How do Florida's laws benefit either of them? Maybe he was the wrong bloke to be doing neighbourhood watch. I respect your opinion also BT but I have to wonder about Zman's claim that it was "all in God's plan." That one scares me greatly I'm afraid. Ross. Link to post Share on other sites
Fly-n-hi Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Utterly, utterly false. The latest crime stats from the UK show that last year; - Overall crime fell by 4.2% - Homicide down by 13.8% - Attempted murder down by 7.6% - Firearms offences down by 15.8% A whole 20 seconds typing 'UK crime rates' into Google would have told you the truth. Vince You're right. I googled UK gun crimes and this was the top site (among many). And it only took about 12 seconds.Link You were saying? Want me to post all the sites? It'll take up alot of room though. Link to post Share on other sites
Alvis 3.1 Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I would like to express my condolonces for the victims of the shootings in Colorado last night, and I'd like to hope that everyone contributing to another pointless debate about gun control would take a moment to do so as well, instead of trying to prove their side of a very flawed argument. There are no simple solutions to the complex troubles society faces, and taking the opportunity to spout off one's rhetoric in the wake of a tragedy is in poor taste. Al P. Link to post Share on other sites
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