A-4 Skyhawk Buddy Tanking

[aferguson]

Hi all. It is my understanding that, during the early stages of the Vietnam war, the US Navy used A-4 Skyhawks in the tanker role to fuel other Skyhawks outbound on airstrikes, via a centreline mounted 'buddy' tank. This was prior to the KA-3's becoming available in 1967.

My question is: were A-4's also used to refuel other navy aircraft, such as the F-4 Phantom or were they just used to fuel other Skyhawks?

If anyone has any information on this, i'd appreciate hearing it.

[Phantom ordie]

They could refuel any other A/C,only problem was they could not carry enough fuel to be effective.

[cafe]

The pics are from wikipedia and commons.

A-4B refueling an RF-8A (another one)

2 A-4F refueling RF-8Gs

A-4E refueling an F-4J

A-4C refueling an F-14A

[Andre]

To further elaborate on Cafe's answer, the Skyhawks carried the D-704 buddy refuelling pod. Fujimi's 1/72nd KA-6D kit has it.

Cheers,

Andre

[aferguson]

interesting photos, cafe. I gather the ones refueling the phantom and tomcat are from some kind of training sorte. Perhaps to train fighter pilots in air to air refueling, or simply a refueling procedure to extend another aerial exercise. I like the Tomcat one in particular....would make for an interesting diorama.

The A-4 from Redtails was stationed at Miramar, so perhaps it's during a 'Top Gun' type exercise.

Edited August 7, 2012 by aferguson

[Rex]

the Skyhawk refueling mission was actually effective,,,,,,,for the intent of the mission

A-4 in the fleet were used to "top off" after cat launch, and to "save" aircraft coming into the pattern,,,,,,they were not used the same way as an A-3 Whale,,,,the A-3 did "racetrack" refueling, "save" refueling, and "launch light on fuel, heavy on ordnance, fill up after launch" refueling

very early A-4 use of the refueling store was "sacrifice" refueling also,,,,,the aircraft launched, flew together towards a target, the tanker would then have to fill up his "buddy",,,,,,the buddy would then continue on and deliver the package, as the tanker picked a nice soft piece of water to ditch into (unable to return all the way to the boat)

once the Whale was introduced to the fleet,,,,,,the "mama and her chicks" concept of delivering the package came about,,,the A-3 would "guide and tank", with the Scooters delivering, the tanker able now to return and swap out for another tanker,,,,to pick up and "save" any Scooters that actually returned and "tank them back to the boat"

[A6BSTARM]

Rex,

What your talking about is unoffically referred to as a "Yo-Yo" tanker. It bounces up during the cycle and lands during the same cycle, think of a yo-yo and you will get the idea behind the name. As to the sacrifice tanking bit, that is news to me and to a few others that I have talked to who flew either Spads or Whales in those opening days off Vietnam. There was a tactic in the books about sacrifice tanking and it was carried on to the A-7's and A-6's well into the end of the cold war; the tankers would carry as much gas a possible to get the Phantoms and later Tomcats out as far as possible from the battle group to stop the Soviet Naval Aviation Bombers from attacking the carriers. From playing with the numbers and the maps of where Yankee Station was, it was well within range for a Skyhawk loaded with two 300gal drop tanks and carrying a centerline station of weapons or do a 400gal drop on the centerline and do weapons on the wing stations.

[Collin]

In the S-3B...we did Yo-Yo on occasion. Everybody wanted those flights since it was a CAT and TRAP in the same cycle and most likely you had a ready deck (and may get a few extra traps out of the deal) after your tanking was done and you came sceaming down from tank altitude.

We executed a type of "ladder" tanking once. We reached out and "touched" another US carrier that was entering our AOR as a welcome to the neighborhood message...our Admiral liked to do things like that. Think it took 4 S-3 tankers to get one S-3 out to overfly their ship at sunrise (and a simulated Harpoon attack)...then that one lone plane flew a bingo profile back to CV-62. I planned it with DCAG and the Skipper, and briefed it on CAG's stateroom floor with a chart and dividers (no PowerPoint needed back in the day). Worked like a champ, but that was a long night of flying.

Cheers

Collin

[Rex]

the "package" was not a bomb full of HE,,,,,and the location was before the Vietnam conflict, with all that is implied in using aircraft earlier than KA-3B or A-3B with the refueling gear in the bomb bay,,,,or even before the A4D-2N (A-4C), for that matter

the mission and the parameters was worked up and "written into" the fleet during the days that Skyhawks had access to only 150 gallon wing tanks, and had to either use the Navpac or an A-3B's Radar for non VFR navigation,,,,if the Scooters had Navpacs and 150 gallon tanks filling all three stations, there would have been no reason for the flight

a lot of missions that were common as far back as 1964 were NOT even possible with equipment in 1960 or 1961, so the same goals would have been achieved with the equipment at hand at the time,,,,,history is sort of like that,,,,things were done "the wrong way"

just because it was a long time ago, doesn't mean it should all be forgotten,,,,,we are a large group that say we are into history,,it would be nice if people could be reminded of things like One Way Scooter Nuke Flights, Stripped down Skyraider Flights,,,and removable Phantom wing tanks,,,,,,"I didn't see that" does not mean "it didn't happen that way"

[aferguson]

This is a very interesting discussion. Rex, are you saying that once the KA-3 appeared, which i think was 1967, the A-4 was still used to buddy tank? Was this common or was it just rarely done? And are you saying with the 'mama and her chicks' method, the KA-3 would fuel the A-4 tankers, which would in turn fuel the outbound strike aircraft, which i gather could be any type of aircraft (a-4's, f-4's, a-6's etc), while the KA-3 itself returned to the carrier?

[Rex]

for the first part, yes

the A-4 could and would be used as a tanker, right up until after the Vietnam war

there is a link in this thread to a pic that is a "Unique Antiques" Scooter fueling someone up

also remember that A-3B were used as tankers "before the KA-3B appeared",,,,they used a removable package mounted in the bomb bay in the A-3B, which allowed them to change back to a bomber if needed

and the Mama and her chicks method of guiding radarless aircraft is an old concept,,,,,I believe it was around "Pathfinder Mosquito" time periods in WW II,,,except that those were the same aircraft type, so the guide stayed near the guided aircraft those times

the reason for the A-3 and A-4 combo was that the Whale had radar, and the Scooters did not

the Special Package mission was so vastly different than the "beach strike" mission because of the distances involved,,,,,,the USN had to be creative, just hit the Cold War large country with one point on a Divider, hit water capable of Carrier Maneuver with the other point,,,calculate Miles Per Pound of JP-5 (using 150 gallon wing tanks and a Mk-7 on your three pylons)

[A6BSTARM]

Rex,

I know of the missions your talking about and had friends in the A-6 community who praticed those special delievery tactics. However, the question at hand appeared to talk about Vietnam in interest. I would also note that a few of the guys I knew in the A-6 community came over from FJ-4's or even Spads remember meeting up with Tradewinds and the few Savages during exercises simulating strikes on the Soviet Bases (the ranges being actually El Centro or Yuma), the Tradewinds and the Savages were the tankers supporting the strike package.

[Rex]

the USMC A-4 were in the wing on the Carrier to replace the A-3 detachment

the Marines had to create the method of carrying out the whole strike themselves, both AJ-2 units were deployed to PAC during this Med cruise, so they couldn't get any help from them,,,,,,,and of course, it was a "designed mission", not an active mission that got actually used

since I don't remember the exact Year/ship/wing combo, I didn't find the cruise in a quick search just now

I am tempted to say it was VMA-324,,,,,but, don't quote me on that,,,,I do remember that it took three Skyhawks to run the show,,,,a Bomber, a Tanker,,,,,,,and another different Tanker for "saving" any possible returning Bomber

I do think I just remembered the "newest book" that talked about Mama and her Chicks,,,,,that could be in TT's Scooter book

[Tailspin Turtle]

Say "hello" to my little freends...

Of course, it would be an A3D with a tanker package and A4D-2s, but you get the idea.

The Skywarrior had a radar, navigator, star-sight port, etc so it was all but certain to get to where it was going, whereas the Skyhawk pilot had a strip map and dead reckoning (a known starting point, compass heading, indicated speed, outside air temperature, elapsed time, and wind correction estimate). The concept was that the Skywarrior would lead one or two Skyhawks to someplace easy to navigate VFR from, top them off, and all three would go bomb something. For really long-range missions, there would be a tanker waiting on the return leg.

The all-time great missions of this type were the Black Bucks. See the refueling plan here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Black_Buck

[Finn]

How about this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/A-4B_VA-216_refuels_EA-3B_VQ-2_1967.jpeg

Jari

[Tailspin Turtle]

How about this one:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/A-4B_VA-216_refuels_EA-3B_VQ-2_1967.jpeg

Jari

I've heard that referred to as a waste of everybody's time...

[Jay Chladek]

I seem to recall reading that combined USMC KC-130 and Scooter tanker operations were at least something planned for and done in training, if not actually carried out operationally. So a Marine KC-130 would launch with a full load of gas and drogue lines to tank up a couple Skyhawks with the buddy refuelling systems and those Scooters would in then take their fuel to striker birds (so the KC-130 didn't have to be in two or three places at once).

[A6BSTARM]

Well there was a story of a Scooter that was supposed to pass gas and he ended up passing gas to either an F-8 or an A-4 who was shot full and just leaking like a sieve, in turn the scooter driver kept passing gas till his bingo light came on about that time a Whale came over and they all passed gas all the way back home. I also thought there was a picture of this, but my google-fu and bing-rate was failing me.

Oh and Rex, I am not at all discounting what your saying. There was a number of things done during the post-war period to achieve shape delievery that are interesting and make you scratch your head in the sense of "what were they thinking"

[aferguson]

i was told on another board that during the Vietnam war and after, A-4's with buddy tanks were always circling the carrier when planes came back from a mission, in order to top anyone up who didn't have enough fuel to make at least 3 landing attempts. This seems logical to me and even after better tanker options came along like the KA-3 or KA-6D, this would still seem like a good idea as you could have several A-4's topping up several planes at once, rather than one or two tankers with line ups behind them.

Anyone know about this that can comment?

[Rex]

While it is true that Skyhawks served in the Vietnam war aboard carriers right up until the end, and a few years beyond,,,,,,you will run into times late in the war when there were no Skyhawks deployed for a period of time

as the war got up into the late 60's, Skyhawks started being replaced in the wings by A-7 and A-6, until only the Hancock had Scooters at all in her wing, once CVW-19 upgraded to A-7 on the Oriskany

so, in 1972, for example, there would be multi-month long periods with no Skyhawks in a Wing on either Dixie or Yankee station,,,but, there would be thundering herds of Whales, KA-6D, and A-7 with Refueling stores circling around (horrible image for an old Scooter guy, lol)

pick a "cool year" like 1965, and Scooters would be buzzing all over the place, based on everything from a real wooden deck Essex (most of the CVS) up to Enterprise