Have we worn out the group build?

[TaiidanTomcat]

Unless I missed it, ARC usually has a huge summertime blow up in General Discussion where members either leave in a huff, or get banned. Havn't had that this summer... maybe people really are busy.

Edited August 10, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[vince14]

Yeah, I miss the good old days of the Annual ARC Blow-up. My personal favourite was the Falklands War one.

Vince

[Emvar]

You guys crack me up..... Last time I figured out there was an issue I had an invite to another site. I thought for a long second when I posted in this thread, but my momma taught me to speak my mind.

[Ryan Hothersall]

Well I'm just hoping its summertime problem. I am currently moderator of Iran-Iraq war GB and when the poll was put here about half a year ago, almost 30 people showed interest in participating. Now there's just a handful building (or at least showing progress), which kind of makes me disapointed as a mod. I also managed to get 3 sponsors for the build, meaning 15 free decal sheets given to the guys that finished something... And it's fascinating as this GB includes aircraft from US, USSR and France in always attractive desert camos... Once again, I'm just hoping it's summer's guilt <_<

That is where my interest mainly is, MiGs/Sukhois operated by Middle East, North Africa, plus the odd Asian air force.

Expect a couple more Iraqi ones from me.

[RKic]

Look at the prize offerings for the Desert Storm Group Build and tell me that had nothing to do with the number of particapants.

That may have been part of it, but it was also a well run GB where the mods kept conversations running and had that cool daily update on the war thread. That alone kept me involved.

It was also a nice theme that kept things pretty tight. It also included some popular as well as lesser known types.

Another forum I'm on frequently has single-type and sometimes single-kit builds. Having everyone working on such closely linked projects really gets the participants involved.

And no, it's not just summer. I've been on ARC for 7 years, and the past six summers have been more active than this.

[-Neu-]

It's all about the prizes, people like having an incentive to push them over the hump to get a project finished. There are those who do very well seeing a project all the way through, then there are people like me who get to a point and lose focus due to work or life getting in the way. I believe the latter is a good percentage of people who join group builds. To keep the half hearted modelers focused in these group builds, you gotta keep a "carrot" out in front of them. Look at the prize offerings for the Desert Storm Group Build and tell me that had nothing to do with the number of particapants. If there is an easier way for GB moderators (a lot of people are too shy to ask for donations) to solicate prize donations (carrots), I believe we would see more activity in the builds.

I don't think that's necessarily the case at all... if anything they are more indicative of good organization. I think you need to have compelling subject matter and getting enthusiastic participants. It needs to go beyond "that looks cool" to something more. Look at the most successful GBs in the past two years (I'm using thread count as an imperfect measure):

CONA - 134 threads

Flying Fortress GB - 117

Desert Storm - 91

On Canadian Wings - 89 threads

Mig Gb - 70

In Defense of Europe. -64 threads

I participated or watched most of those GBs. Some of them were of esoteric subjects. Yet in each case, there were a core group that produced a large portion of the builds. They were all interested in the subject and it helped to set the tone of the GB. It makes all the difference in my mind.

I think the other issue is the delay in gbs starting. Its killing alot of the momentum at the start.

[Wolfgun33]

I'm a co-moderator for the All Things Texas GB. I thought we had a great idea for the GB as it wasn't restricted to just aviation. We didn't have as many people join as I thought after seeing more interest than acctually joined. Not sure why though. It was my first GB as a moderator and I guess we needed to drum up more intrest and I guess prizes. Oh well, you learn as you go.

[Emvar]

You know prizes really do not mean anything to me..... If I am interested I'll join. I think it would be the same for many others.

[vince14]

I do think the delay between the posting of a 'drumming up interest' thread in GD and the start of most GB's is an issue. It seems like many months pass between the initial idea and the GB starting - that might have something to do with it. You lose all that initial enthusiasm for the GB. For example, the 'What If' GB has been approved but isn't scheduled to start until February next year - nearly six months from now. How many of those who supported the idea are still going to be up for it by Feb?

Here's an idea for a different way of doing GB's;

- 2 or 3 year-long GBs that cover wide-ranging subjects. One for props, one for jets and one other. An example yearly GB schedule might look like: The Eastern Front (props), Phantoms (jets), and 1/32 WWI kits.

- 2 or 3 short GB's of 4 months duration, covering more niche topics - for example the Iran-Iraq war, African Air Forces, or the Spanish Civil War .

- A voting system for which of the short duration GBs to do next.

This means that we can keep interest up by having fairly short GB periods, but also keep longer ones open for those who take more time. The voting system could work like this;

- Nov: Official thread opened in GD to allow people to suggest future GBs. At the end of the month, voting options are opened for, say, a week. Top 2/3 GB's are then good to go.

- Dec: Prep time for the GB, allows organisers time to find sponsors/prizes, participants time to get whatever they need together.

- Jan: Phase 1 GBs start.

- Feb: Phase 1.

- Mar: Phase 1. Thread & voting for Phase 2.

- Apr: Phase 1 GB's end. Prep for Phase 2.

- May: Phase 2 GB's start.

- Jun: Phase 2.

- Jul: Phase 2. Thread & voting for Phase 3.

- Aug: Phase 2 GB's end. Prep for Phase 3.

- Sep: Phase 3 GB's start.

- Oct: Phase 3.

- Nov: Phase 3. Thread & voting for next year's Phase 1.

- Dec: Phase 3 GB's end. Prep for next year's Phase 1.

Vince

Edited August 11, 2012 by vince14

[WymanV]

I've been keeping track of group builds on ARC for some time now and I can't help but notice that there is very little enthusiasm for builds once they begin. They're also not getting as much traffic as they used to?

There are likely multiple causes for this; too many builds going on at once, too many "broad spectrum" builds where it seems like everyone is doing their own thing, and a lack of traffic due to the build threads being moved waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyy the heck down past all the armor/car/ship stuff which, lets face it. ARC does not attract a lot of those modelers.

But what I'm getting at is that maybe we ought to rein things in with the builds. Thoughts?

There's no reason to "rein things in". The number of group builds going on has been pretty consistent over the years. And it would seem that the "broad spectrum" builds get far more traffic and generate more interest as there is more variety. Fact is, if you only have a few people building something on the same theme, you still have a group. Also, there have been a few over the years that I for one knew would be small, just because the scope of the build was so narrow as to be prohibitive to wider appeal. Not to mention that ARC is very 'jetcentric' and there's not a wide draw from prop builders. Interesting that the auto group build is the hottest one going right now.

I think it's a sign of the times. People today have less leisure time and less money to spend on it. Look at the list of completed group builds http://s362974870.on...hp?showforum=34 and you can see the dropoff in participation coincides with the so-called financial meltdown. And I too think it disappointing that with the army of mods that patrol the place, there's only one in the bunch who can start a group build thread. Waiting months for one to start is frustrating enough without having to wait a week past the start date to start posting progress pics.

Other thoughts: I too think there are subjects that can run longer than 6 months. Having been in the B-17 GB, it was good for it to run it longer and frankly there's no reason not to have something like an F-14 GB running perpetually (and hotlinked in the Jets forum, as suggested). Brett Green has been running an Airfix GB on Hyperscale for better than three years now and it still generates interest and traffic. I'll be finishing up my Fort this weekend and the delay wasn't lack of interest or motivation (I want this beast OFF my bench) but from getting bogged down in the research and moving half way across the country. I'm sure I'm not the only one that's happened to.

If you get 30 expressions of interest in your group build idea, you'll get maybe 15 or 20 of them actually participating. With any luck you'll pick up 5-maybe 10 along the way. And probably half of them will finish and see it through. It's just the nature of things.

Prizes mean nothing to me either. I build because it's my hobby and I enjoy it. Not so I can be rewarded in the end. My reward is the experience and the finished model on display. I get into group builds to share the experience with like minded modelers. Most group builds I participated in over the years had no raffle whatsoever and it made no difference.

Moving the group build forums up on the page would help a lot too. Were it me, I would put it under the General Discussion section. Having it at the very bottom isn't helpful.

And yes, it's only summer in the northern hemisphere

Ken

[mingwin]

I just collapse all the non-"AIRCRAFT-RESSOURCE-CENTRE" forums! and it really feels better! don't know why i didn't do it before...

at first i tough that these forums where a good thing... but to me it proves not to be so... as mentionned before, these seems dead or merly alive...

I also notice a big slow down here in the latest years... i dunno for GB... i don't often get there...(but the collapse thing might help bring me here...)

and it have nothing to do with summer... unless you count globasl warming for kind of perpetual summer... (i do spend the same time, whatever the season is)

if you think it have something to do with summer... try make a summer GB with our South-Emisphere members... our summer is their winter!!!

but i think the bad economic situation might also have something to do with keeping people away from our relaxing hobby... and this obviously happening since 2008.(the buy and sell forum gives me a big clue...)

Edited August 11, 2012 by mingwin

[Neo]

See its a good thing to have a Geek around !! (that would be me)

Vince you know what i think you really gave me a good idea.

Let me know how you guys like this :

GB fix dates. 2 starts a year

1st run Jan to June

2nd run sept to jan

Voting and preps for GB July to sept

I think having fixed date could help get more interest since you always know when the GB starts and ends instead of being random.

some exceptions may apply but i like this

Cheers

Neo

[Emvar]

See its a good thing to have a Geek around !! (that would be me)

Vince you know what i think you really gave me a good idea.

Let me know how you guys like this :

GB fix dates. 2 starts a year

1st run Jan to June

2nd run sept to jan

Voting and preps for GB July to sept

I think having fixed date could help get more interest since you always know when the GB starts and ends instead of being random.

some exceptions may apply but i like this

Cheers

Neo

Far from being a geek....which is the new Chic. I love that Big Bang Theory just cracks me up large.

I like the idea off one GB lasting a year as I may accomplish something. Between work and Home sometimes I go months without sitting at my bench.

I have always had the NoN A/C forums compressed and I rarely visit them. Like I said before I come to this site because I primarily build Aircraft, some Armour or Boats or Busts and Figures. Moving the GB forums up a bit would keep it visible. But like I said before that is my opinion. When I build Armour I go to a forum that deals with that kind of stuff.

Emil

Edited August 11, 2012 by Emvar

[mingwin]

i think you got a good idea Neo.(i know nothing is perfect but...)

i think this would help a lot to make the GB's more publicized...and thus, more visible!

so we could get many announcement like: "the GROUP BUILDS season is beginning in" 6 weeks...4 weeks...2 weeks... gentlemen, at your workbench! GO!

[Flyboyf18]

I don't know if fixed dates are that good. If for whatever reason they don't match your schedule then you won't be entering. Granted there shouldn't be that many people in that category, but......

The economic times may have something to do with it, for instance, if you get inspired by the topic but don't have a kit you may not have the cash flexibility to purchase whats needed!? Most folks, I guess, go whole hog detail on GBs?

We have gone thru the 'major' topics at least once and some of the ideas lately have tried to steer away from these but the idea is so watered down or out in left field that not enough people are interested. Why left field? What's wrong with right field? Oops let my mind wander again!!

When I build I usually get on a theme and unless the GB topic is REALLY of interest I continue on my theme until it get's side tracked by something hotter!?! If the GB fits my theme du jour then I'm in, but if it doesn't I may look at it but chances of joining are slim.

We go thru something like this every year at our club. We have a theme build for the March meeting. This year was anything 'horse', initially I wasn't going to be able to make the meeting, but then with just over 2 weeks to go my schedule changed, woohoo, where's that visible horse kit???? Couldn't find it so I bashed out a Hassy Mustang and won the show!! We have done this since I have been a member (27 years) so the ideas are getting thin! Since we are a club and have members building a variety of models this topic needs to cover a/c, ships, armour, cars, sci-fi & figures. So every year lately picking an all encompassing topic has been entertaining, to say the least.

So to sum up, GBs are a bit worn but let's let the ideas fly and if they land on go (no $200) they run regardless of the # of participants. The whole idea is to get people building models not sitting at a computer discussing modelling! So I'm off to the model room, what's my theme du jour??????

[Neo]

I get your point Flyboy but GB are announced at leat 6 monts in advance so you have plenty of time to save your pennies to join. for the schedual thing well appart from the summer time lows its 6 months to build a kit you dont have to start from day 1!

@Mingwin

I dont approve 1 year GB. We have had a couple and most interest is lost around half way, mods disappear(3 of these in the last year including extensions), raffle dont happen ect. It not only up to me to approve but 98% of the time a over 6 months GB will not get my vote

Having Fixed date we would be able to promote more even display it in the ARC calendar on the main page

The Group build mod team is always looking for your inputs THANK YOU EVERYONE

Cheers

Neo

Part of your local GB mod team

[mingwin]

I get your point Flyboy but GB are announced at leat 6 monts in advance so you have plenty of time to save your pennies to join. for the schedual thing well appart from the summer time lows its 6 months to build a kit you dont have to start from day 1!

@Mingwin

I dont approve 1 year GB. We have had a couple and most interest is lost around half way, mods disappear(3 of these in the last year including extensions), raffle dont happen ect. It not only up to me to approve but 98% of the time a over 6 months GB will not get my vote

Having Fixed date we would be able to promote more even display it in the ARC calendar on the main page

The Group build mod team is always looking for your inputs THANK YOU EVERYONE

Cheers

Neo

Part of your local GB mod team

Where in my post did you read that??? i never ever sais-wrote that??? please don't make me tell things i don't tell...its kind of frustrating when some does... is my english that bad that you cannot understand that i was supporting your idea???

my sentence was referring to the indy 500... to show how could look like announcements on the ARC calendar pages...

Edited August 11, 2012 by mingwin

[WymanV]

Announcing a group build 6 months in advance is also plenty of time to lose interest. I for one won't wait 6 months to build a kit I'm interested in building.

Ken

[Sebastijan]

Just a thought - how about ARC SIGs? As far as I know Special Interest Groups are like indefinite group build sharing the common theme.

[-Neu-]

Announcing a group build 6 months in advance is also plenty of time to lose interest. I for one won't wait 6 months to build a kit I'm interested in building.

Ken

I don't think that's the problem at all. IF you're not interested after six months then you probably weren't all that committed in the first place, which is the problem. That six months is useful to get people interested in the GB.

I look at Britmodeller and their GBs which have far more participation than ARC's (and most of them are only three months long) and they have six months notice. So that's not it. And they have far more GB turnover too.

[Neo]

Alrigh ill count this in the oups section

Sry Ming Wing i quoted the wrong person

Edited August 12, 2012 by Neo

[Emvar]

Neo.... I like to take credit where credit is due but that first quote was not me.... I will have to say it was Mingwin.

[Neo]

OUPS ill fix this sry dam beer

Alright let me get my foot out of my mouth ..... that may take a while !!

Edited August 12, 2012 by Neo

[mustanger]

Suggestion: Another site with good GB participation has a "Group Build" tab at the top to which a member can go to see what he is signed up for and to view the start and end dates for all the group builds listed. That's very helpful to me and it might be useful to ARC members.

I visit several different sites and I recently signed up for a group build, but then forgot on which site I signed up. Sometimes things just happen, so it would be good if the site does all it can to keep members organized and on track.

Edited August 12, 2012 by mustanger

[Aaronw]

I agree strongly about the role of the mods and theme, but I guess I measure success differently than some. A popular theme can carry a GB pretty much on its own (as my Pacific War GB shows, as work has really kept me from doing my GB mod duties well). A motivated mod can also really help keep things moving by being a cheer leader (bumping posts up, dropping little bits to attract new blood etc), by digging up info to inspire people etc.

I suppose prizes work for some, but that isn't really an attraction for me. I have primarily participated / moderated in GBs that are somewhat obscure, Between the wars stuff, rarely modeled stuff (Latin America GB, Rescue GB, Artic / Antarctic GB etc). What really gets me going is seeing unusual models or helping to get someone to build a model they normally wouldn't have been interested in. Often times these kinds of GBs are not wildly popular, and some might even call them failures, but for me I see the 6 or a dozen models that otherwise might not have been built, people taking some time to learn about the subject and maybe getting someone to build something outside their normal comfort zone.

Let me know how you guys like this :

GB fix dates. 2 starts a year

1st run Jan to June

2nd run sept to jan

Voting and preps for GB July to sept

I think having fixed date could help get more interest since you always know when the GB starts and ends instead of being random.

some exceptions may apply but i like this

Cheers

Neo

As one of those people who enjoys finding a date from history that ties into the GB theme I'm not a huge fan of the idea, but I can see where it might help make things more managable.

If something like this was to happen, I would really prefer to see it divided into quarter start dates (jan, mar, jun, sept) with 3 or 6 month runs just to break things up some. I think having all the GBs have the same start / end date would actually end up having a negative effect as people feel pressure to start / finish multiple GBs and as most GBs seem to dwindle during the second half I think you would see big dry spells during the second half of the bulk GBs. By going with quarters it would at least ensure there were always some GBs starting up as others neared their end.

Edited August 12, 2012 by Aaronw