HVAR on P-51D/K ETO

[AlCZ]

Hi. Were used in ETO a HVAR ? I think, this rockets are used in PTO only, in ETO not. It is true ? I think in ETO carry Mustang's (and not often) only 250lbs bombs... HVAR and bombs are standart in Korean War, but in WW II in ETO, Mustang is a air superiority fighter (as F-22 today) and not fighter bomber/attack plane. True ?

[mawz]

Hi. Were used in ETO a HVAR ? I think, this rockets are used in PTO only, in ETO not. It is true ? I think in ETO carry Mustang's (and not often) only 250lbs bombs... HVAR and bombs are standart in Korean War, but in WW II in ETO, Mustang is a air superiority fighter (as F-22 today) and not fighter bomber/attack plane. True ?

The P-51 was certainly used regularly for ground attack in the ETO, although the P-47D was generally preferred in that role by the USAAF (likewise the RAF tended to prefer Typhoon & Tempest units, as well as Spitfire LF.XVI and XIV's). For the duration of 1945, ground attack was pretty much the primary role for all the single-seat fighters operating from Continental bases, with air defence & escort being secondary missions.

That said, IIRC the HVAR's were PTO only, and very limited in deployment at that.

[Jennings]

HVARs were not widely used on P-51s during WWII. They were a relatively late addition to the aircraft. There also weren't a lot of P-51s doing ground attack as their main duty, even in the Pacific. Their main thing was bomber escort. The Air Commando units did use them for air to ground, but the majority were pure fighters.

Edited September 24, 2012 by Jennings

[rpeck]

This P-51D had them but this was after the war ended.

http://www.fold3.com/image/#32443794

Rick.

[Joe Hegedus]

This P-51D had them but this was after the war ended.

http://www.fold3.com/image/#32443794

Rick.

Having the launching hardware, and actually using the HVAR, are 2 different things.

[Bigasshammm]

It's my understanding that mawz and Jennings are both right in a way. During the end of the war when there wasn't much threat from the Luftwaffe the escort pilots were given the green light to seek out targets of opportunity on the ground. I've never seen any info showing the use of rockets though until Korea. I don't think they used them in the pacific much either and were more of a testbed. Could be wrong on that though. ETO mustangs were definitely escort but there usually was never anything to protect from.

[B-17 guy]

I've read that once Dolittle took over fighter command he took away the strictly escort doctrine of the fighter groups and unleashed them for ground attack while on the escort missions. The logic being that if the fighters are destroyed on the ground, they cant attack the bombers in the first place.

And to the best of my knowledge, the rockets were not used in the ETO.

[mungo1974]

In the nearly 30 years i've been into 8th/9th/15th AF subjects i've never seen a wartime P-51 actually carrying HVAR's. Even Mustangs actually fitted with the HVAR's underwing stub mount's are quite rare in ETO. Off the top of my head i can only think of one 355th FG P-51D-25 used in April/May '45 plus acouple of late F-6D/K's

[Stona]

According to Shore's "Ground Attack Aircraft in WW2" the 9th AF fired 13,959 rockets during the war. None were from P-51s,all from P-47s. The first P-47 units were rocket equipped in July 1944.

Steve

[Joe Hegedus]

According to Shore's "Ground Attack Aircraft in WW2" the 9th AF fired 13,959 rockets during the war. None were from P-51s,all from P-47s. The first P-47 units were rocket equipped in July 1944.

Steve

"Rockets" does not automatically equal "HVAR". The 4.5" bazooka tube triple launcher was used in 1944 in Europe by US forces. The Brits used a rail-launched rocket on the Typhoons, also.

HVAR refers specifically to a weapon with a 5" diameter motor, normally with a 5" warhead although a later development was a 6.5" diameter shaped-charge warhead, launched from either a rail or zero-length stubs under the wings, and was, IIRC, a USN-developed weapon, and was primarily used in the Pacific by USN and USMC aircraft. An earlier rocket, with a smaller-diameter motor (3.5"?) but a 5" diameter warhead, was also used by USN aircraft as an anti-sub weapon and was used in the Atlantic IIRC, but I'm not aware of any rail- or stub-launched rockets used in Europe by USAAF forces.

[Stona]

"Rockets" does not automatically equal "HVAR". The 4.5" bazooka tube triple launcher was used in 1944 in Europe by US forces. The Brits used a rail-launched rocket on the Typhoons, also..

The original question was specifically about the HVAR,which incidentally was originally developed (by the California Institute of Technology) for air to air combat.

The triple bazooka tubes saw limited use in Italy.

The British rated their 3" rockets. The 2nd TAF fired 222,515 of them during the war. Here is not the place for a discussion of their efficacy,or lack thereof. The US 9th AF preferred napalm.

Steve

Edited September 25, 2012 by Stona

[mungo1974]

The US 9th AF preferred napalm.

Those Jug pilots used to love the smell of roast Wehrmact troops in the morning.

[Niels]

P-51D's carrying the launch stubs are to be found on old photos of ETO Mustangs. However, from what I have been able to read up on, non where fired - this was however the case in PTO, where the P-51D both could and did carry these.

Plenty of P-51D's based at Iwo Jima carried rockets, and used these for strafing targets while the B-29's where dropping their bombs on targets in Japan. This started early summer 1945 and lasted until VE day.

[Joe Hegedus]

The original question was specifically about the HVAR,which incidentally was originally developed (by the California Institute of Technology) for air to air combat.

The triple bazooka tubes saw limited use in Italy.

The British rated their 3" rockets. The 2nd TAF fired 222,515 of them during the war. Here is not the place for a discussion of their efficacy,or lack thereof. The US 9th AF preferred napalm.

Steve

True. But if you'll note what I quoted, the poster stated that a number of rockets were fired by P-47s. I merely clarified that there were other types of rockets besides the HVAR.

Please, cite a source for your statement that the HVAR was intended for A2A combat; are you sure you're not thinking of the 2.75" Mighty Mouse FFAR that was carried by the F-89, F-94 and F-102?

[dnl42]

Please, cite a source for your statement that the HVAR was intended for A2A combat...

I too would like to see a source for air-to-air. I was under the impression that the HVAR and its predecessor, the FFAR, were both developed for air-to-surface use by the USN. The FFAR suffered from too low an airspeed, especially after it was fitted with the larger warhead.

[Stona]

I think a report from the California Institute of Technology,referenced in Ian Gooderson's "Air Power at the Battlefront" is where I read that.

Steve

[AlCZ]

Thank you. I supposed HVAR´s on ETO are a myth and really-it is a true. OK, an IDF or Korean War F-51D are too nice subject for model :)

Edited September 27, 2012 by AlCZ

[don f]

Please, cite a source for your statement that the HVAR was intended for A2A combat..........

Perhaps the claim that the 5" HVAR was originally developed as an air-to-air weapon comes from the published recollections of Caltech's C.W. Snyder. In his recollections, Synder states after the end of WWII, Caltech's Dr. W. McLean perfected a complete IR detection and guidance system that could fit onto a 5" rocket motor. Synder writes, "Thus the Holy Moses was transformed into the 'Sidewinder,' one of the earliest and best, and by far the cheapest, air-to-air guided missiles." According to Synder, the first aircraft launch of the 5" HVAR was on 30 March 1944. I believe that the Sidewinder was fully operational in 1956.

Don

[Niels]

[quote name='Stona' timestamp='1348598032' post='2422196'

The triple bazooka tubes saw limited use in Italy.

There are many photos of 9AF Thunderbolts carrying the triple "Bazooka" launch tubes prior to and after D-Day in 1944, so it was not only used in Italy. For later war, I have not seen so many pictures, so I figure it was discontinued in use sometime in late summer/fall of 1944. But this was on Thunderbolts as mentioned.

[AlCZ]

Yes, bazooka on T-bolt i saw, but not HVAR on Mustang...

[Niels]

Correct, no HVAR on ETO Mustangs - but many carried the launch stubs though!