Ensafrirpo Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 What are the major visual differences between the Fishbed-L and Fishbed-N, and in what year were these changes made? Do these types correspond to the “early†and “late†bis versions? I am thinking of when the rounded canopy windscreen side panels became squared off, and when the RSBN antennae were introduced. I've seen photos of supposed -Ns with rounded windscreen panels and the usual antennae (Hungary), -Ls with squared-off windscreens (Poland)... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 For me the presence of the RSBN antenna depended if the country (that initial bought the aircrafts... second-hand aircrafts messes everything up) used the associated ILS system or not. Square windshield side windows: some Finnish planes also had them too. It's plausible to me that you can distinguish late production bises by the square windshield windows. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floggerman Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 (edited) What are the major visual differences between the Fishbed-L and Fishbed-N, and in what year were these changes made? Do these types correspond to the early and late bis versions? I am thinking of when the rounded canopy windscreen side panels became squared off, and when the RSBN antennae were introduced. I've seen photos of supposed -Ns with rounded windscreen panels and the usual antennae (Hungary), -Ls with squared-off windscreens (Poland)... The RSBN antenna is less a matter of early or late but of the installed equipment. As the RSBN block was to big to install it additionally there were 2 bis-versions. bis-SAU (with SAU autopilot and RSBN navigation but without LAZUR remote command line) and bis-LAZUR (with LAZUR but w/o RSBN). Otherwise it would be too easy for russian planes... In (East)Germany we had both. Edited September 27, 2012 by Floggerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 The RSBN antenna is less a matter of early or late but of the installed equipment. As the RSBN block was to big to install it additionally there were 2 bis-versions. bis-SAU (with SAU autopilot and RSBN navigation but without LAZUR remote command line) and bis-LAZUR (with LAZUR but w/o RSBN). Otherwise it would be too easy for russian planes... In (East)Germany we had both. Have to add that the "bis-SAU" name was used only by the Germans. Officially the earlier version of Type 75, that is MiG-21 bis was the one with the Lazur system and it was mainly inteded for the Russian Air Defence forces, the PVO with the designaion Type 75A. For the RSBN equipped aircraft a designation of 75AP (the second letter reffering to the new system) was introduced (the Germans simply called it bis-SAU). The square windscreen sides were introduced with on very late production models, I think it was from batch 7 or 8. Together with the new windscreen the lip of the cover for the alcohol bottle was also changed as well as the shape of the DUA-3 cover and also the second series KM-1M ejection seats were installed into these late airframes. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Floggerman Posted September 30, 2012 Share Posted September 30, 2012 Have to add that the "bis-SAU" name was used only by the Germans. Correct Gabor, but both were "bis", so our designation was a little bit more clear (if in russian plane designations can be something "clear"...) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted October 1, 2012 Share Posted October 1, 2012 Correct Gabor, but both were "bis", so our designation was a little bit more clear (if in russian plane designations can be something "clear"...) :D :D :D Here we had the name 75A and 75AP, but since of the first we only had a little more than a dozen and far more of the second version a diferenciation was made saying that the 75A was the "Lazur" and all others the "bis". So in princip a similar local designation philosophy. The problem is only when some "Western Experts" took up the bis-SAU name as an official Russian designation for the type. It is similar to the 66-400 and 66-600 designation for the MiG-21 U sub-versions or the MiG-29B designation by our ministry for the Hungarian Fulcrums. They simply combined the "open" MiG-29 designation and the 9-12B OKB designation of the type making it MiG-29B, which is unknown anywhere else in the world. There was of course a political reason for this too since the Ministry in 1993 wanted to present the aircraft as a brand new, freshly manufactured airframes and try to supress the fact that they have been made for the Russian AF and were in storage for years. Best regards Gabor P.s. One more note on the 75A "Lazur" aircraft they had a differen main landing gear hub which looked like that on the MiG-21 MF and not the plain, flat version of all the later MiG-21 bis hubs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ensafrirpo Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Thanks chaps. I am after the Soviet/manufacturer, rather than local, designation for the bis versions, which Gabor has kindly addressed. I was wondering from which year was the later (i.e. 75AP) version manufactured and exported outside the Warsaw pact. Most Middle Eastern and African bis versions seem to be the AP; I'm assuming (as Gabor says) the early versions were primarily for the PVO. Regarding the wheel hubs, I therefore assume the Zvezda bis is in fact accurate for an early 75 bis...? There doesn't seem to be a kit for the 75AP in 72nd (i.e. with squared-off windscreens and RSBM attachments). Edited October 2, 2012 by Ensafrirpo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Regarding the wheel hubs, I therefore assume the Zvezda bis is in fact accurate for an early 75 bis...? Zvezda probably just reused the PFM sprues without thinking about the wheel hubs. There doesn't seem to be a kit for the 75AP in 72nd (i.e. with squared-off windscreens and RSBM attachments). Well you have squared-off windscreen side glasses in the Fujimi kit... yet the whole windscreen isn't a MiG-21 windscreen No 1/72 MiG-21 kit has the RSBN antennas but AFAIK Part provides them in the PE set for the Zvezda MiG-21bis. And the flat wheel hubs, and the LG legs trapezes, and... Edited October 2, 2012 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ensafrirpo Posted October 2, 2012 Author Share Posted October 2, 2012 (edited) Well you have squared-off windscreen side glasses in the Fujimi kit... yet the whole windscreen isn't a MiG-21 windscreen Exactly ! :P Pity no-one can do a vac alternative for the Zvezda kit of such an iconic machine... Edited October 2, 2012 by Ensafrirpo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted October 2, 2012 Share Posted October 2, 2012 Pity no-one can do a vac alternative for the Zvezda kit of such an iconic machine... I'm not sure that I understand. A vac alternative for the Fujimi kit you mean ? If so, no vacuform canopy could help. I hope that Eduard will downscale their MiG-21s one day to replace all the KP, Condor, Plastyk, Fujimi and Zvezda kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 I hope that Eduard will downscale their MiG-21s one day to replace all the KP, Condor, Plastyk, Fujimi and Zvezda kits. The answer to this question was YES by Mr. Sulc the CO of Eduard last weeken at E-Day. :D :D :D Only at the moment there are some other projects in progress and only after that will come the line of 72nd scale MiG-21 kits. I think this is very good news. But we have to waite for it. :( And as you can see RVA has just released their SMT version in 72nd and there is more to follow that. Will have to see the "plastic" to make judgement on this. But on the Eduard offering (based on the quality of the 48th scale (OK minus the bis nose :( )) I am pritty sure it will be a hit :) . As to the canopies. At E-Day I have managed to buy a few sets of Rob-Taurus vacform canopies for the 48th Eduard MiG-21's and they are trully fantastic!!!!!!!!! I know he has a line of products and I hope he will make some canopies in 72nd too! Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 The answer to this question was YES by Mr. Sulc the CO of Eduard last weeken at E-Day. :D :D :D Only at the moment there are some other projects in progress and only after that will come the line of 72nd scale MiG-21 kits. I think this is very good news. But we have to waite for it. :( Hardly surprising but a very good news And as you can see RVA has just released their SMT version in 72nd and there is more to follow that. Will have to see the "plastic" to make judgement on this. But on the Eduard offering (based on the quality of the 48th scale (OK minus the bis nose :( )) I am pritty sure it will be a hit :) Me want all of them ! You know Gabor that there isn't any currently available 1/72 MiG-21 that doesn't have a nose shape problem of some kind. As to the canopies. At E-Day I have managed to buy a few sets of Rob-Taurus vacform canopies for the 48th Eduard MiG-21's and they are trully fantastic!!!!!!!!! I know he has a line of products and I hope he will make some canopies in 72nd too! Oh ok. Good to know if we want to make a 1/72 MiG-21 with opened canopy. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Ensafrirpo Posted October 3, 2012 Author Share Posted October 3, 2012 I'm not sure that I understand. A vac alternative for the Fujimi kit you mean ? If so, no vacuform canopy could help. I hope that Eduard will downscale their MiG-21s one day to replace all the KP, Condor, Plastyk, Fujimi and Zvezda kits. No, I mean a squared-off AP screen and canopy for the Zvezda, to upgrade it to a late bis. Btw, the Part set doesn't include RSBN antennae. As far as I know only the Lift Here photo-etch provides genuine Fishbed-N bits and bobs. But as you say, Eduard will probably eventually consign all these to the scrapheap and take over the MiG world in 72nd . Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted October 3, 2012 Share Posted October 3, 2012 No, I mean a squared-off AP screen and canopy for the Zvezda, to upgrade it to a late bis Scotch tape to protect the part, putty the front of the side windscreen windows and voila :) Btw, the Part set doesn't include RSBN antennae. Damn you're right. Sorry. Eduard will probably eventually consign all these to the scrapheap and take over the MiG world in 72nd . RV Aircraft will try to before that ! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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