PC and Risk Management gone crazy

[DutyCat]

It was my argument then that the answer was not busing students, but providing them with better qualified teachers.

That is what a lot of people think. I would argue that there are always teachers that need professional development, but those schools that supposedly have the worst, most inexperienced teachers typically have them because they often a feature a hostile teaching environment. I speak from experience here. I used to teach in one and it was awful. I could tell you some stories. If you want good teachers to be attracted to your school, provide a welcoming environment. Don't make it so they feel like they have to don a flak jacket and combat helmet.

What part of "No Politics" do you not understand? Your comments on culture leaning one side or the other and that side being responsible for a schools successes or failures is not fair, or objective. I have very real input to give to a topic like this, but it's not fair for me to violate the rules I just pointed out. General Discussion is a forum without politics, and this thread is fundamentally political.

Let's not be rude...but you are correct about my post being fundamentally political. I guess I should not have bothered, but the cat is out of the bag now. So feel free to provide your input. The fact that you are objecting to my post is demonstrative of my point that education is being ruined by politics. Everyone has an opinion and not much is agreed upon. My comments about it being a left leaning culture is based upon my personal experiences and the policies that are currently embraced. They are far from what one would call conservative. I don't think that point could reasonably be disputed. However, I acknowledge your point about the "left leaning culture" being partially responsible is my subjective viewpoint. But to be clear, I mentioned that other things are primarily responsible. I just think the "education culture" promotes an acceptance of mediocrity that is underachievement enabling. My opinion based upon my experiences and personal philosophy.

DutyCat, as a fellow teacher (higher ed) I can sympathize with a lot of what you say. But I'd offer some caveats. One is that "Left-leaning" is a politically misleading term here. At my institution, I deal with students from all ends of the political and socioeconomic spectrum, and lemme tell you, those coming from very wealthy, politically conservative families can exhibit as much or more a sense of victimology and entitlement about their student's expected paper-performance. Indeed, more, because they have lawyers at their disposal, and because they often come to the discussion with cheap, prefabricated political opinions about universities and profs as rationalizations for why their kid isn't doing so hot.

And as for "Ivory Tower Ph.D.s:" Lots of us in traditional disciplines are getting the same "new teaching" rhetoric coming from the Education Experten, who in our case are just down the hall. We often feel the same way you folks do. It's particularly frustrating when the Education Experten have little idea of what it is we teach, and assume that their methods--or goals--are universally applicable across disciplines.

Agreed. But I wasn't aiming the post as much at students as I was parents, bureaucrats, and politicians. The kids are going to be what we allow them to be.

Regarding Ivory Tower PHD's...I think many of them are clueless. They craft their supposedly "research based" methodologies and use the credibility of their position to sell them to the bureaucrats and politicians.

No one wants to hear what actual, experienced classroom teachers think. This is because they know they will not like what we have to say, and it won't be PC. Instead, everyone wants to tell us what THEY think...what THEY want us to do...how WE are the problem.

Edited October 8, 2012 by DutyCat

[Darren Roberts]

Regarding Ivory Tower PHD's...I think many of them are clueless. They craft their supposedly "research based" methodologies and use the credibility of their position to sell them to the bureaucrats and politicians.

No one wants to hear what actual, experienced classroom teachers think. This is because they know they will not like what we have to say, and it won't be PC. Instead, everyone wants to tell us what THEY think...what THEY want us to do...how WE are the problem.

Ugh! If I hear anymore about "researched based" learning, I'm going to puke! Essentially what they're telling us is that our experience means absolutely nothing. They haven't stepped foot in a classroom in decades, yet they seem to know what's best. I wonder, do they take into account the kids who don't give a crap about learning? Do they take into account the kids who are only worried about their next meal. Do they take into account the kids who are, in the real world, low intellegence? Nope. All they say is that we, as teachers, should be good enough in our craft to meet the needs of every single child in our rooom and get them to succeed. I love to use the example that doctor's, ultimately, have a 0% success rate. Oh, they may delay the inevitable by a few years or even decades. But in the end, they all are failures.

[Raymond]

what teachers need is their own PA to do the 20hrs of paper work that comes from 5 hours teaching :)

I remember that was the no.1 reason my father and many other long-time teachers left; they joined to teach, not push paper.

[Joe Hegedus]

-- Have a very basic end of year skills test. If the kid doesn't pass, he doesn't move to the next grade.

Sounds reasonable.

-- Move to a year-round school year.

Pros and cons to this, but it seems to work in North Carolina where my sister teaches.

-- De-emphasize sports.

YES! And while we're at it, put a bit more emphasis on the arts (music, etc.)

-- Find some way to hold parents and students accountable for their learning.

Seems that the end of year skill test can be used for this.

-- Get rid of this idea that all kids should go to college. Bring back vo-tech skills and have kids who obviously aren't college material to be tracked to these classes starting at middle school.

Definitely agree with this one. I'm not sure exactly when or why it has fallen out of fashion, but it seems to be an obvious thing that the schools should be teaching, at the very least, the basics of practical skills like carpentry, cooking, basic sewing, etc. And providing the opportunity for those who show aptitude and interest in those areas to pursue them more. You're quite right, Darren; not all kids are college material. Not because they lack the intelligence or ability to succeed, but more so because it's not what they want to do with their life. Not all careers require a degree, and there's always going to be a need for skilled tradesmen like carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and such. But the mindset of society these days seems to marginalize those careers as "unworthy", because they're not glamorous and because they require some actual work and even getting your hands dirty.

[Raymond]

ironically, kids who went off to learn trades here are now far more financially stable than uni grads

"I can find a hundred tallented uni grads, but god help me find a decent plumber whose available" :D

[DutyCat]

Another side note to this. Last year I went to a professional teaching conference and in a private conversation with the facilitator brought up some of these problems. I told her I felt the entire paradigm of public education needed to be re-examined, that the system was essentially broken and needed overhaul. The next day I was called into the principals office at my school and told that the facilitator had phoned and said I had a "negative attitude." I told the principal that I thought these conferences were all about the professional exchange of ideas, an open discussion of problems, etc. I learned right then and there to be more cautious. You do not want to be labeled as a malcontent in any organization. If someone asks your opinion, then answer as truthfully as prudence allows. Aside from that, shut up and at least pretend to drink the Cool Aid.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Ugh! If I hear anymore about "researched based" learning, I'm going to puke! Essentially what they're telling us is that our experience means absolutely nothing. They haven't stepped foot in a classroom in decades, yet they seem to know what's best. I wonder, do they take into account the kids who don't give a crap about learning? Do they take into account the kids who are only worried about their next meal. Do they take into account the kids who are, in the real world, low intellegence? Nope. All they say is that we, as teachers, should be good enough in our craft to meet the needs of every single child in our rooom and get them to succeed. I love to use the example that doctor's, ultimately, have a 0% success rate. Oh, they may delay the inevitable by a few years or even decades. But in the end, they all are failures.

Hey between doing a difficult job, or telling others how to do a difficult job having never done it myself, I know which one I would pick :D

[TaiidanTomcat]

Another side note to this. Last year I went to a professional teaching conference and in a private conversation with the facilitator brought up some of these problems. I told her I felt the entire paradigm of public education needed to be re-examined, that the system was essentially broken and needed overhaul. The next day I was called into the principals office at my school and told that the facilitator had phoned and said I had a "negative attitude." I told the principal that I thought these conferences were all about the professional exchange of ideas, an open discussion of problems, etc. I learned right then and there to be more cautious. You do not want to be labeled as a malcontent in any organization. If someone asks your opinion, then answer as truthfully as prudence allows. Aside from that, shut up and at least pretend to drink the Cool Aid.

Did you tell him "the wheat harvest was coming in well, comrade?"

I think one of things that kids are better at today is knowing the "right answer" in situations like this. Thats something we have really gotten across. Little jimmy may not know how to read but he sure as hell knows how talk around "unfortunate truths." he knows what not to say. So he isn't really helping himself by not knowing how to read, but he isn't hurting himself by saying the wrong thing.

I'm sorry to say it, but until someone does start saying unfortunate things, and nailing things on church doors for example. nothing changes.

One of my professors is a Vietnam Marine, and a former cop of 20 years. My god that man would tell you exactly what was on his mind in ways so elegant he stunned people into silence. Later on he would describe these run ins to others as "There was almost a fist fight between the teachers, I was about to start it" Administrators would walk the other way when they saw him coming. He would just run circles around them and their policies. He was in the DOD for 20 years too so he "knew the mind of a bureaucrat"

Edited October 8, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[echolmberg]

I'm confused. Does this mean Milwaukee public school teachers should or should not get their Viagra?

Eric

[niart17]

Ok, I'll bite and add my little 2 cents worth of opinion. My wife is/was a teacher (hasn't worked since we've had our daughters but may go back). Her biggest complaint wasn't the students or even the students lack of respect or effort. She taught high school and it's expected that high school aged kids are going to be somewhat disrespectful of authority (sorting out and learning their independence, it's natural) and are at times going to not put a lot of effort in to their work (recently discovered "outside activities"). Those are problems that given the right amount of freedom to address and support from her supervisors, she could work on and overcome. As I'm sure teachers of lower grades could solve their own unique problems as well. But the real problem to her was the incredible amount of resistance she'd get from higher up because they had to answer to so many levels of rules from places that had no idea of what was the real situation. Because of this attitude that schools should be accountable all the way up to the federal level, there is so much over management of what should be the relationship between teachers and students.

This next part is going to be political so I appologize in advance. BUT I believe the federal government should stay out of education when it comes to anything but the most basic of policies. Some point to unions being the problem, and to a large degree they are. But that's only becuase of the relationship of federal government, unions and schools. It's WAAAAY too political because politicians can be manipulated to put bogus programs in place that further expand that teacher/student relationship gap and do nothing but put binders on what a teacher can and can't do to reach their students. States should handle education with only a small supportive role of federal oversight. Teaching a student growing up in inner-city Chicago is going to be different from teaching a kid growing up in Souix City and is going to require a different approach. I won't get in to my thoughts of teachers unions because that is a whole 'nother issue. A big one yes, but too controversal. In other words, I agree about PC and risk management. I don't think you'd have this much of a problem if there weren't so many chiefs between teacher and student. That's just my opinion.

Bill

[TaiidanTomcat]

I don't think that post is really that political.

The second we decided that politicians at the Federal level needed to "think of the children!!" and "education" became an issue for the President of the US right down to him setting National policy. This in turn made it a Metric that can be used against the man in office, and that pretty much means there is serious incentive to spin or fake numbers, and ignore failed policy. I wish the president or presidential candidates could go with a "no comment" on education. Injecting politics into it has been detrimental.

Love it or hate the Federal government, it is large, uncoordinated, and unwieldy, where it sits it tends to stay, and when it moves it moves slowly and only with great hesitation and large expense. If you accept federal dollars you fall under federal accountability, its never free money. In 2009 the POTUS was applauded for giving a speech in (South I believe?) Carolina where he said that the school house he had just visited was "broke down" and its walls needed new paint. It got a ton of applause, but later on a commenter asked a question that no one else seemed to ask "Why did we need the President to come all this way to tell us the walls should be painted?" Its failing at the basics, and of course the most expensive way to be told such a basic thing.

Education is not about teaching children.

Edited October 8, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[sierrascale]

Another side note to this. Last year I went to a professional teaching conference and in a private conversation with the facilitator brought up some of these problems. I told her I felt the entire paradigm of public education needed to be re-examined, that the system was essentially broken and needed overhaul. The next day I was called into the principals office at my school and told that the facilitator had phoned and said I had a "negative attitude." I told the principal that I thought these conferences were all about the professional exchange of ideas, an open discussion of problems, etc. I learned right then and there to be more cautious. You do not want to be labeled as a malcontent in any organization. If someone asks your opinion, then answer as truthfully as prudence allows. Aside from that, shut up and at least pretend to drink the Cool Aid.

To me, this is the most shocking and frightening thing I've read in this discussion - It reminds me of a fascist or communist state organization.

I probably would have resigned, on the spot, in the principal's office. Talk about a completely unprofessional organization. What kind of a "facilitator" does she think she is? So much for trying to improve the system. Completely unbelievable.

bob

[echolmberg]

Teaching a student growing up in inner-city Chicago is going to be different from teaching a kid growing up in Souix City and is going to require a different approach.

Bill

I'm going to really agree with Bill on this one. Here in Wisconsin, we've seen first hand what the teachers' unions are capable in every definition of the word. Then there was that strike down in Chicago just a few days ago. You see stuff like that and you can't help but feel nothing but contempt for those teachers in particular and teachers just in general. But then, at the same time, my wife and I attend parent/teacher meetings with our young daughters' teachers and they are some of the most fantastic teachers I've had the pleasure of knowing. Green Bay really is sort of like a "Mayberry" or someplace where you'd find Wally and the Beav running around.

I think teaching is a noble undertaking. Heck, who DOESN'T remember playing "school" or "teacher" when they were a kid? My two girls play it all the time. It's just interesting to note that you don't hear coal miners complain as much and yet I'd have to venture a guess that their working conditions, salaries and benefits are far surpased by those of teachers.

Eric

[Horrido]

+1 for Niart's post. My mother is a retired high school English teacher, and echoes his post exactly. Her biggest complaint was with the administration. My father-in-law is a former middle school

English teacher-gone-administrator. His take on the "no tolerance" policy: If you're bullied or pulled into a fight, you're gonna get suspended even if it's not your fault... so you'd better make it worth your while.

You can resign, but why open up a place for the PC lackies to occupy and continue to degrade the system? Why allow them a chance to take even greater control and influence? The only positive option is to stay and do ones best to resist the stupidity.

On a side note regarding communist state organizations, my wife's colleague, who grew up in the Soviet Union, recently entered into one of the newly constructed local lab buildings, and was floored into flashbacks, because the architecture, artistry, and design was identical to what she faced in her former nation. It really, really frightens me regarding the paths we're taking as a society, because it reminds me so much of the governments and social structures of totalitarian states I've studied.

[Fishwelding]

To me, this is the most shocking and frightening thing I've read in this discussion - It reminds me of a fascist or communist state organization.

Friends of mine in other fields indicate it's increasingly common in many American businesses, too. As management practices deteriorate, it'll get worse. It is not the product of a political system, so much as a culture of dubious accountability in management, private or public.

As a related note, while people here keep throwing around the word "PC" as if that has a specific definition anymore, I might substitute "MBA." Administrators in lots of institutions, in the military, government, and academia, increasingly celebrate bringing in business management techniques that are supposedly now an intellectual field in itself. It's one of the fastest growing fields and faculties in higher education, in fact. "Risk management" is just one example of the oft-repeated principles that have come out of this emerging field. Others include cost accountability that chronically devolves to limiting labor costs (teacher salaries, for examples), and the prodigious use of the phrase "moving forward" or "going forward" to begin sentences.

Edited October 8, 2012 by Fishwelding

[TaiidanTomcat]

To me, this is the most shocking and frightening thing I've read in this discussion - It reminds me of a fascist or communist state organization.

Its the new world. If a teacher is good at his job, and by good at his job I mean the ability to pass information onto his students that is critical to their education as students, but has a "negative attitude"/disagrees with the politburu; he is more likely to be fired or let go under cuts than a teacher that does not teach, but is seen more positively. Its classic zero defects mentality. "If you do not try, you cannot fail"

Someone that tries is more likely to fail, and if they try something worth accomplishing it will be inherently difficult. If the biggest opposition is the administration, the teacher that tries is on a collision course with the administration.

Attitude means more than results. And its also a symptom of the inability to problem solve, or assign importance to what is important.

"what helps accomplish the mission is good, what gets in the way is bad" Now I know that sounds basic. but its remarkable how few organizations remember that. If your goal is to win football games, a QB that studies his playbook is good. A media circus over how much your QB studies his playbook is bad, because that can only serve as a distraction and waste of time as the QB, Players, and coaching staff try to explain why that isn't so. It does not make you better at football. Thus is in the way, and bad.

I enjoy "strict"/"Mean" teachers because they want to accomplish the objective and suffer no fools-- troublesome Student, administration it doesn't matter.

[Slartibartfast]

... disengaged parents......[that is] the real [enemy].

Fixed it for you. All those other ills stem from this root. Discipline used to be taught at home AND school. Too often it was experienced only at school. Then bleeding hearts and misguided parents decided schools had no business enforcing discipline, that's the job of parents. But guess what, parents won't believe teachers (adults), only their kids. Since parents are dis-engaged for the most part anyway, children tend to get no discipline at all.

Tests scores prove American children need help but no amount gubmint interference will help until parents get the message and place themselves back into actively teaching their children.

[DutyCat]

Deleted Post....

Better to just forget about it and move on.

Edited October 9, 2012 by DutyCat

[zerosystem]

Definitely agree with this one. I'm not sure exactly when or why it has fallen out of fashion, but it seems to be an obvious thing that the schools should be teaching, at the very least, the basics of practical skills like carpentry, cooking, basic sewing, etc. And providing the opportunity for those who show aptitude and interest in those areas to pursue them more. You're quite right, Darren; not all kids are college material. Not because they lack the intelligence or ability to succeed, but more so because it's not what they want to do with their life. Not all careers require a degree, and there's always going to be a need for skilled tradesmen like carpenters, plumbers, electricians, and such. But the mindset of society these days seems to marginalize those careers as "unworthy", because they're not glamorous and because they require some actual work and even getting your hands dirty.

you can't say that loud enough, this emphasis that everyone needs to go to college is devaluing the results for every kid that really does perform and care about college. the money spent/saved could be astronomical, and benefit all involved (except for the heads and professors making 6 figures for teaching one class)

[CorsairMan]

"I can find a hundred tallented uni grads, but god help me find a decent plumber whose available" :D

Yes - except trade unions do a marvelous job at controlling supply of available and cheaper competition.

[jester292]

.......It saddens me to know that we as a nation seem to be lowering our standards to such a point that mediocrity becomes the accepted standard.....

Not only are we accepting mediocrity, as a culture we celebrate it! Look at what's on TV (guess why I haven't had cable TV in over 4 years). And its not just on TV, but our education system, as stated earlier, is setting the new standard for low, and they're racing to the bottom to beat out the customer service "industry".

A caveat about the TV comment. Ok, some of the talent shows have their contestants worth watching, but when we put winners in the hands of the american public mediocrity wins. And we celebrate it.

Aaron

[TaiidanTomcat]

you can't say that loud enough, this emphasis that everyone needs to go to college is devaluing the results for every kid that really does perform and care about college. the money spent/saved could be astronomical, and benefit all involved (except for the heads and professors making 6 figures for teaching one class)

University Implicated In Checks-For-Degrees Scheme

JULY 14, 2004 | ISSUE 40•28 | MORE NEWS

"We have strong evidence that the University of Michigan granted academic degrees to students in exchange for hefty payments, often totaling tens of thousands of dollars," Deputy Attorney General James B. Comey said. "In the process, thousands of graduates have emerged with degrees, but few or no skills applicable to everyday life. And many are as unprepared to enter the job market as they were when they first enrolled."

According to documents collected as a part of the Justice Department's ongoing investigation, some University of Michigan undergraduates attended classes fewer than three times a week. During these classes, students were asked to do little more than listen to lectures delivered by their professors.

Comey said that, while it seems apparent that the universities under investigation were conducting a monetary transaction, millions of degree-buyers believed that they had not bought, but "earned" their diplomas.

"The university is very careful to circumscribe the financial element of the transaction," Comey said. "The employees who conduct lectures are made to seem above the world of commerce. Students don't give their payments to the professors, nor to the departments from which they purchase their degrees. Rather, checks are mailed to the 'Office of the Bursar,' this 'bursar' being someone who's nearly impossible to track down."

Besides attending classes, students read materials relating to their lectures, write the occasional paper, and participate in testing, Comey said. Although the content of many courses was often thought-provoking, what alarmed investigators was the subject matter's "intractably abstract nature."

"A course in Chaucer can be a fascinating examination of medieval mores and the evolution of the English language," Comey said. "Such knowledge, however, has little application in larger society. Students can graduate with majors in creative writing, Latin, women's studies, and history, yet still not know how to fix a sink, sew on a button, or even properly feed themselves.Virtually the only opportunity graduates have to apply their arcane knowledge takes place during discussions over coffee with their peers, or attempts to impress members of the opposite sex at parties."

In addition to their twice-annual tuition payments, University of Michigan students pay hundreds of dollars in ancillary fees.

"Students are bilked out of registration fees, housing fees, and lab fees," Comey said. "And the university has all sorts of tricks to draw the money out, such as denying students access to library materials or refusing them copies of their transcripts."

Many students find that the only way to get a return on their investment is to continue their studies at the post-graduate level, resulting in even more money for the college.

"Some graduate-degree-earners have been known to find work in their fields, but many end up teaching in the very schools that issue these degrees of questionable value," Comey said. "In this way, the grift sustains itself."

Comey said citizens have a right to be concerned.

"Since so many students purchase their degrees using government-backed student-loan programs, taxpayers are supporting this," Comey said. "Also, because many employers require these bachelor's degrees, even if irrelevant to the actual work, the business sector has to own up to some collusion in the matter."

One alleged victim of the checks-for-degrees scandal is 25-year-old Michael Trumbull, who purchased an art-history degree from the University of Michigan, making his first payment in January 2002. Trumbull currently works the front desk of a Lansing Comfort Inn.

"Not once has a customer asked me about the innovations of Edouard Manet, or whether politics and aesthetics make good bedfellows," Trumbull said. "They're much more likely to ask me to bring them a plunger or give them a wake-up call."

Trumbull, who owes more than $40,000 in student loans, added that he must use a calculator to perform even simple math.

As for the "kids don't get their hands dirty in shop anymore" my first year in high school this internet thing was considered black magic that must be harnessed to control the future. "computer" and "Tech" classes became huge priorities. PE was cut from 3 year required to 1 year, that could be well evaded by taking PE in summer school (A whole 8-weeks)

This is all hilarious in hindsight

Pretty clear by now that with Twitter, Facebook, and Smart phones in class, mastery of technology was never going to be the problem they thought it was. Oh kids can use tech, trust me! Fixing a sink? not quite. physical performance? Yikes don't get me started.

Edited October 10, 2012 by TaiidanTomcat

[CorsairMan]

Every employer I have ever worked for had a pile of jobs where a 'university degree' was a requirement. Fine for some but where no analytical skills are required and its repetitive office work that pretty much anyone can master in a month or two... Why the need for a $20k degree?

[TaiidanTomcat]

Every employer I have ever worked for had a pile of jobs where a 'university degree' was a requirement. Fine for some but where no analytical skills are required and its repetitive office work that pretty much anyone can master in a month or two... Why the need for a $20k degree?

The Big Mile Stone here in the states was when a few years ago average student debt hit 6 digits... Which is a little staggering to say the least. Combine this with stories of freshly graduated kids going right back home to live with their parents, and taking a job at the local Applebees after their four years of "Highschool camp" and it paints a pretty surreal picture: Doing the same job, in the same place, with the same home, after four years and 100K in debt.

Theres a college bubble. it has not burst, but some people are getting the message and at least delaying it.

[ross blackford]

Lost track of how many teachers tell me the student and the parent are reflections of each other at conferences. And nobody, I mean nobody is better at nostalgia than baby boomers. They rocked.

Its not just school everyone loves a short cut. Believe me, I work in fitness. I'm off to take steroids now and do my 8 minute abs, so I can be super strong like a Navy SEAL.

Yes TT, Baby Boomers are a nostalic lot, but I don't think it's just because they're Boomers. I think it has more to do with their age, as in chronological years. I'd like to wager that you'll become more nostalgic later in life too. The oldest of them is now 66 years old and the yongest 48. Looking back I can see that I've become more nostalgic as I've aged.

,

Ross.