Shuttle Wars, Part 15 posted

[DutyCat]

After a long delay, part 15 is finally posted. Looking at my viewer stats, 15 minutes seems to be a bit too long for many folks to hang. About 50% of viewers only make it through 50% of the video. So I am going to post shorter segments from here on out...under ten minutes. I have 63 subscribers and about 15,000 views. Not as much as established, high profile YouTube channels, but decent for just one guy with limited time trying to share his enthusiasm and give back to the hobby a little bit.

If there are any suggestions I am all ears. It takes a lot of time and effort to put tape and edit these. If it is boring, let me know. Do you not want to see actual work? Just step by step results? Do you want me to not talk and just string pictures together?. Or do you like it the way it is? I really haven't received any negative feedback from anyone, but I also haven't asked until now either. I have started putting a picture summary at the end of each video segment. Hopefully you will think that is an improvement.

Sincerely, Gil Gregg

[Jay Chladek]

Sorry you had to ditch the attempt to keep the tiles, but I think the bird will look better in the end. As for the window stress cracking, I'm thinking that if perhaps the window attachment tabs were cut down before installation (just leaving enough of an alignment lip for a gluing surface) to make each window individual, that might reduce the crazing and stress fractures, because that way each window can free float in their holes and not be subjected to stress from adjacent windows. Considering the cockpit section is still open, what about trying to secure a replacement set of windows from Revell and having another go? I'll bet you could get them inserted into the model without having to dismount the cockpit again.

[DutyCat]

Considering the cockpit section is still open, what about trying to secure a replacement set of windows from Revell and having another go? I'll bet you could get them inserted into the model without having to dismount the cockpit again.

Too late now, Jay. The cockpit is buttoned up and the wires have been stripped out!

Realize that by the time I publish a video that more work and taping of future "episodes" is already taking place, just like on TV. I am are already in "post production" of Part 16, release date TBD!

Also, I want to remind everyone that the intent of this video series was not to show exactly "how it is supposed to be done" when building these shuttles. I am not that presumptuous. If I wanted to do that I would have built them first, figured them all out, then built them again as a videoed tutorial. Instead, I represent the modeler who has a pretty solid set of skills squaring off against a couple of beasts of the real space modeling world. No one has attempted to document a build up of these two kits side by side like this that I am aware of. The intent is to tackle them like any other experienced modeler would, figure it out what works and doesn't work along the way, and document the attempt. That way, prospective builders can adopt the methods that work and avoid what doesn't.

r/Gil

[K2Pete]

I guess I'll get the ball rolling, Gil.

Gil, please read this with the understanding that it is intended as constructive criticism from my own point of view.

Firstly, I've watched all your episodes. The 15 minute segments were great. As a matter of fact, I watched a few of 'em twice and portions 4 or 5 times. Your use of various glues and sanding tools really had me intrigued.

As I've said before, I consider myself a novice model builder ... so I'm always looking to learn a tried and true technique and seeing your bona fides on your site, I figgered this'll be great fun to watch and learn.

In addition, Real Space is my main area of interest ( ... and has been for over 40 years) and I always hope to see a stellar build. It breaks my heart, so to speak, when I see a subject, modeled in my area of interest, that is mediocre.

As you said " ... Instead, I represent the modeler who has a pretty solid set of skills squaring off against a couple of beasts of the real space modeling world. No one has attempted to document a build up of these two kits side by side like this that I am aware of. The intent is to tackle them like any other experienced modeler would, figure it out what works and doesn't work along the way, and document the attempt. That way, prospective builders can adopt the methods that work and avoid what doesn't."

You lost me when you ... how can I put this nicely, filled over the windows. An experienced modeler wouldn't have solved it that way, IMHO. Heck, even a novice modeler would have found another solution.

But I kept watching because the Revell model was coming up and you promised that you'd deal with the oversized tiles in a unique way, never seen before ( if my memory serves) But in the last show, you've sanded all the tile detail off. Hm-m-m-m.

I kept thinking that if you had built a Phantom, or an F-18C or even a submarine in the same manner as this Shuttle build, you wouldn't have too many fans in that area of interest.

I do like the voice over. The ambient noise is just fine!

However, this last segment could've been condensed to about a minute and a half. At this stage of the build, I don't think we need to see 9 minutes of sanding a seam. Yes, it was boring

To be even more honest Gil ( ... man, I hope you're not all steamed up ... ) initially, I had hoped you were gonna do a little scratchbuilding, like, at least, the drogue chute compartment, you know, to bring the model up to date, just a little. And the apologizing for the build and the caveat, that well, it doesn't matter, 'cuz it's only going in to the school. Aw geez ... then why waste all the time and money on these two kits?

I do appreciate the opportunity to offer this critique Gil. I do understand, and appreciate the time and effort it takes to produce these videos. And I do hope that you'll accept in that light.

Pete

[DutyCat]

Well, Pete, I am not so much steamed as I am disheartened.

I am sorry I lost you when I decided to putty over the windows of the Monogram orbiter. That certainly was not the plan when I started out, but my "solution" ended up destroying the kit windows. If you recall I initially tried "a mask the glass and layer the putty" routine, but that didn't work. Then I tried to vacuform new windows, but they didn't look or fit right either. The puttying over everything was a last resort, to at least represent the shape of the windows accurately. I have some different ideas for when I decide to do this kit again....but that is for another day.

For the Revell orbiter,....yes I very much wanted to keep the tiles, but I just don't know of a way to eliminate that seam. No matter what you do it is going to be obvious. Believe me, I tried. I thought that maybe a re-scribe job over the area would look okay, but when I tried it, it just simply didn't. I had to go in a different direction to get an acceptable result. And now the problem with the stress crazed windows, so no cockpit lighting.

So neither kit is turning out quite as good as I had hoped. There were mistakes made and lessons learned. So now the videos have changed from a "how to" to a sort of half and half "how to" and "how to not." I think that in itself is still valuable. It is just not the slam dunk, "Here is how your do it" tutorial that I was aiming for last December when I conceived the project, went out and bought myself a shiny new video camera, and thought I would try to do something to give back to the online modeling community. I had seen videos others had done, enjoyed them, and thought I could do a credible job with a little practice. And honestly, I thought it might give me a little name recognition as well if I did a good job of it.

I was naturally saddened by this comment...

"You lost me when you ... how can I put this nicely, filled over the windows. An experienced modeler wouldn't have solved it that way, IMHO. Heck, even a novice modeler would have found another solution."

That is a pretty damning comment. I am certainly an experienced modeler, and have a dose of awards to prove it (not that I feel the need to). But even experienced modelers don't always make the best decisions. Sometimes what we think will work in a situation dissimilar to any we have encountered before actually doesn't. My area of expertise is aircraft, modern jets in particular. I am pretty good with them, and as I am sure you know many modeling skills will translate from one genre to another. But each kit has its own difficulties and problems to overcome, and these two kits are more challenging than most for a number of reasons.

As far as lowering the bar because they were going into my school.... That's is just a my way of rationalizing that there is still some value in continuing the builds even though they will be IPMS competition substandard. The money has already been spent. I am doing the best job I can overall, but because of the problems, I can't see going all out with a bunch of scratch built mods when something so fundamental as the windows have to be salvaged with paint and decals just to make them presentable...so no scratch built tank ramps, chute housings, or aftermarket resin exhausts will be going into these kits. Although I have two sets of resin SSME's just sitting there in the box.

At this point, I am just going to finish them out, minus a bunch of air frame mods, as best I can. They will look nice enough when finished, but they will not have had their most serious and challenging shortcomings addressed adequately. That is the just the reality of the situation.

Pete, I appreciate the time you took to formulate your response and I appreciate your honesty. I also can't help but think if you were brave enough to say it, then many others are probably thinking it. I have to ask myself whether folks want to me to see the project through on video for the experience of it, or are they just tuning out. Maybe it would be better to pull the videos I have done to date, pretend it never happened, finish off the kits myself, and then try a video build again at a later date when all of the pitfalls have been documented and techniques for avoiding them solidly worked out. Or maybe it would be better to just shut down the Dutycat YouTube channel entirely and just post photos of finished projects on my website for those that are interested. There are very few builds I have done in my life that went off without a hitch or where problems didn't arise at some point. If I am going to videotape builds, then those who tune in are going to see some mistakes now and then.

I don't want to waste anyone's time. And I damn sure don't to come off sounding self adulating, smug, or pretentious.

I asked for constructive criticism, and I got it. I can't complain. I have some thinking to do.

Edited October 11, 2012 by DutyCat

[K2Pete]

Aw geez, Gil ... as hard as it was to write that crit, it was way more difficult to read your response to it.

DON'T delete your channel ... and DO complete the models. To paraphrase, " ... time to make some lemonade."

Let me offer this scenario. If you and I were in the same model club and you knew Real Space was my area of interest and you had been bringing this shuttle in to our monthly meetings and were ready to stop building due to various frustrations, and using the windows as an example, and asked me what I would do ...

I'd say, sand off the filler and order a new set of windows from Monogram and fix it up. Or, give the model to me and I'll do the sanding for ya. ( I really understand the hesitation, the resistance we all have after we've spent so-o-o much time working on something, only to realize, it ain't gonna work ... it's not fixable. With kit building, it IS easy to fix. The biggest barrier is in our own mind. Just tear it down ... and build it back up again. Eezy-peezy ... and very gratifying! )

As an aside, every single model I've built, so far, has been a co-rappy kit ... AMT/Ertl XB-70, Hobbycraft's Avro Arrow, and every Space model, LM's, Gemini, Apollo Spacecraft, Shuttles, all makes and scales. They ALL needed lots and lots of work. But, I didn't know any better. So this is now my 'normal' expectation of a kit. I've not yet built a kit that "just falls together" ... and I think I'd be bored with it.

So to tear down a model and rebuild it, is fun to do and if presented on a vid, a real learning experience. It would provide that, " ... so THAT's how it's done" AHA-a-a moment! ( With the number of fixes I've made, it's gotten to be quite easy, when you realize that any 'mistake' can be deconstructed and then corrected with some styrene patches! The feeling of, "Ah, that's better!" even tho' nobody will see it, is worth all the initial hand wringing. )

Either way, Gil, by all means, finish the builds. Maybe in 2 or 3 more 15 minute episodes each. i.e. Here's the Revell shuttle with all seams filled and sanded, then primed and sanded and primed again, then the next episode, here it is with paint ( and the masking and paint is just as time consuming as the builds ) and ... done!

I, for one, want to see 'em completed. They're both impressive, due to their size, when painted.

Just don't pack it in!

Pete

[niart17]

Gil, I agree. Don't STOP! And do continue to post the videos for they are and will be helpful to modelers, regardless of their skill level. I understand to a degree what Pete is saying, but I would counter that puttying the windows isn't going to turn off all prospective viewers. Is it the right solution? Maybe not for some but maybe it is for others. You stated that this build is going to be a display piece for a school library. Well in that setting, open and corrected windows aren't going to make much difference. Besides, you can still just cover the windows with the protective covers and it will be a different look than most and will be more accurate. (I've yet to see anybody build with windows covered which is why I considered it myself) Also, your "failure" with the windows still serves a purpose. Just because you weren't able to make that first attempt look the way you wanted doesn't mean it's not a viable solution. Some may try it and figure out how to make it look just right. Who's to say? So really your videos don't have to have all the solutions, they just need to show what you've encountered and let it be what it is. For instance, you've lowered the flaps, that was nice. I don't think someone is going to look at your video and say "man, I would really like to lower mine like he did his, but he since messed up the windows I'm not going to. If only he'd got the windows perfect then I could follow his advice on the paint scheme." So don't fret over it.

If you decide to try and fix them then great. If not then great. You still have worthy material here. so Keep it up!

Bill

[DutyCat]

Well, I guess I will continue with the shuttles and keep the YouTube channel going. There is a bit of a learning curve involved in determining how much actual work to show vs the results of the work. If it was just the results I could do it with photography. But people seem to like videos, especially videos where someone is talking to them and they can get a feel for the narrators personality. Pete, I admit I was probably overly disturbed by your criticism. I was thinking, "Damn, I put so much hard work into filming and editing, and people think it is boring!"

Pete, I went back and took a look. Out of a 9 minute video, there is just about exactly ONE minute of sanding. Still, it is all at one time, from minute four to minute five, so maybe it seemed like much more. In any case, point taken, No one really wants to see sanding unless there is a specific technique being demonstrated. I do think people like seeing assembly (but not parts clean up), and I suspect people will like seeing airbrush work (but not masking). You can see where I am going with this. In essence, I need a new director....a change in filming and editing style, which will hopefully emphasize the relevant. I will do that with the next video and you can tell me what you think.

Bill, thanks for the encouragement..and you too Pete!

Edited October 12, 2012 by DutyCat

[Emvar]

This is the essence of our hobby.... being able to learn from our mistakes and continue. I like to see this gentlemanly criticism being a learning experience and not taken as a shot. Cudos to both You and Pete for the passion, You are both setting a very fine example to follow.

[DutyCat]

Guys, I have decided that I am just not going to be satisfied with the Monogram shuttle as it is built up now with the puttied over windows. I have a couple of orbiter only kits in my stash. I am going to break one out and use it as a replacement. It will take me a few days of construction and bodywork to get it together, but this time I will take a new approach to the windows, as well as implement a couple of other ideas.

As always, thanks for your support.

[K2Pete]

You had me scared there for a second Gil ... but I'm glad to see you get back in the saddle again!!

Pete

[niart17]

Guys, I have decided that I am just not going to be satisfied with the Monogram shuttle as it is built up now with the puttied over windows. I have a couple of orbiter only kits in my stash. I am going to break one out and use it as a replacement. It will take me a few days of construction and bodywork to get it together, but this time I will take a new approach to the windows, as well as implement a couple of other ideas.

As always, thanks for your support.

Gil, Just curious. Do you have access to a vacuum forming maching? If so, you could use that "scrapped" Monogram shuttle with the closed in windows to form a clear cabin section and perhaps use that to make windows from. Whatever you do, DO NOT THROW THAT ORBITER AWAY! I'll be glad to pay you for it and experiment with making a new beenie cap. Let me know.

Bill

[DutyCat]

Gil, Just curious. Do you have access to a vacuum forming maching? If so, you could use that "scrapped" Monogram shuttle with the closed in windows to form a clear cabin section and perhaps use that to make windows from. Whatever you do, DO NOT THROW THAT ORBITER AWAY! I'll be glad to pay you for it and experiment with making a new beenie cap. Let me know.

Bill

I have the Mattel vacuum forming machine that I used to original copy the Revell windows. My intent was to use them in the Monogram orbiter after the original windows were jacked up. That turned out not to be a good solution because of the difficulty in getting a precise fit.

The thing about vacuuforming is the piece formed is always slightly larger than the original. I have thought about the replacement beanie cap idea as well. On potential complication with is the star tracker ports. A beanie cap cut line will have to work those into the design somehow.

My plan on the rebuild is to just simply create laminate pieces with the correct window shapes to apply directly over the stock windows. That is an imperfect solution as well, because when you make the windows smaller, the space between them grows larger. We will see what it looks like when it is done, but in any case it should look somewhat better than decal windows. The best solution would be an accurately shaped and proportioned beanie cap, as you have indicated.

Regarding the original orbiter model, I have not decided what to do with it. I may use it for some experimentation. We will see.

[crowe-t]

Gil,

I finally got around to watching this installment on You Tube. I like what you did lowering the elevons. I'd like to incorporate that in to one of my next builds. As far as the raised tiles, I feel they have many negative issues. They should be engraved instead of raised lines so I don't think it would be easy at all to make them appear correct. They are also too large and I find them distracting. I don't have one of the Revell 1/72 kits but from what I've seen of these, you did the right thing sanding them off. Decals on the bottom will most likely look more accurate then the raised incorrectly sized tiles.

I'm looking forward to your new approach on the Monogram orbiter's windows. The windows seem to be the major shortcoming of the Monogram kit.

Mike.

Edited October 26, 2012 by crowe-t

[DutyCat]

Gil,

I finally got around to watching this installment on You Tube. I like what you did lowering the elevons. I'd like to incorporate that in to one of my next builds. As far as the raised tiles, I feel they have many negative issues. They should be engraved instead of raised lines so I don't think it would be easy at all to make them appear correct. They are also too large and I find them distracting. I don't have one of the Revell 1/72 kits but from what I've seen of these, you did the right thing sanding them off. Decals on the bottom will most likely look more accurate then the raised incorrectly sized tiles.

I'm looking forward to your new approach on the Monogram orbiter's windows. The windows seem to be the major shortcoming of the Monogram kit.

Mike.

Mike,

As has been observed, each kit has its pros and cons. If one wants to build a more "accurate" shuttle, the Monogram kit is a better starting point than the Revell, except for of course the awful windows, the two small rear thrusters, and the limited amount of decals as compared to the recent ROG release. The Monogram has the more correct shape, specifically the curvature of the upper nose and wing chord. However, basic assembly of the Monogram orbiter is far more challenging, simply because of the way they engineered the kit. I wish they would have broken it down similar to Revell.....just more thought went into it by Revell.

What we really need is a new orbiter model engineered to a modern standard, with a common lower wing design, but two or three upper wings and at couple of different fuselages.....or just a smoothy all the way around and an extensive, total surface decal sheet with all of the different thermal blanket designs, so you could choose the orbiter and era. It would probably have to cost $200-250 for a full stack, but it would be worth it.

As far as lowering the flaps for roll out configuration....it is a pain. It is manual work which requires a lot of rebuilding of the flap leading edges so that they match up well with the trailing edge of the wing. It is a time consuming, trial and error process, made all the more difficult by the size of the parts

Getting there....looking forward to the day when I prime these two puppies and can start the "fun" painting and decaling phase.

What about the old Monogram orbiter? Well it is going to be sacrificial. I am going to try to cut the flight deck section out of it and see if I can engineer a beany cap with corrected windows and star tracker ports, then cast it in clear resin. I have two more full stacks in my stash and one Monogram orbiter only kit.

Gil

Edited October 28, 2012 by DutyCat