New 1/48 Spitfire Mk. IX from Eduard

[Otto]

And your proof for that statement is??????

I was in the hobby business from 1984 till 2005 I have attended most of the commercial trade shows and have dealt with virtually every distributor personally., from MMD, Senti, Steavens,Great Models and so on. The worst of them all is Stevens. When he had control of Trumpeter here in the US, the prices of the kits went through the roof. They almost doubled overnight. Great Models was the best and fairest. I used to be the exclusive importer of HiPM since their inception til my cousin died in a car accident a couple of years ago and the company shut down. I've been in the industry long enough to get fed up with the commercial aspect of it. Yes and I do know Silhanek from MPM (and all of its offshoots) Vlado Sulc personally. Vlado is a nice guy, which is a lot more than I can say for Silhanek. But business is business and charge what ever the market will bare. When I sold kits to MMD, Senti, Steavens, and Great Models i sold everything at the going rate of 55% + 5% if paid for within 30 days. Today they want 60 + 5 or they wont even talk to you. This is why I got out of it.

Edited November 4, 2012 by Otto

[Otto]

The Eduard Hellcat in 1/48 Profipack form has a $34.95 list at Squadron.com. Of course there will also be a Weekend edition at a discount (the 1:48 Hellcat in Weekend Edition form is $24.95 list).The Bf109E's are $39.95 List in Profi-pack form. So I'd expect a release price of $35-40 for the Spitfire for Profi-pack versions and then the Weekend Edition for $10 less. No doubt there will also be Royal Class and Limited Editions at higher prices with more in the box (Brassin stuff in varying amounts) and a few Dual Combo boxings.

i hope you are right, If it's around $30 than it will be worth it, but I won't hold my breath. Everyone is taking lessons from the Chinese.

[mawz]

i hope you are right, If it's around $30 than it will be worth it, but I won't hold my breath. Everyone is taking lessons from the Chinese.

Note I'm comparing to Eduard's last two releases of in-house plastic of comparable aircraft (one from 2011, one from 2012). I seriously doubt that the Spitfire will cost more than the Bf109E they released a few months ago. And Eduard's pricing policies are pretty stable. Even their 'expensive' Limited Edition reboxed kits usually come down to take the kit retail, add the price of the included PE/Resin (often more than the kit if bought separately), add the cost of the decal sheet (which is always 5-7 aircraft and of top-notch quality, Eduard really should sell them as aftermarket) and chop 10% or so off as a discount for buying everything at the same time. They aren't Italieri (who will rebox $30 worth of plastic along with a $15 decal sheet and retail for $60).

And remember, Eduard's Profi-Pack kits usually cost the same as a comparable Tamiya kit of a similar subject, but include PE and a high-quality decal sheet which usually has twice as many subjects as the poor-quality Tamiya sheet (if only Tamiya's decals were as good as their plastic). One reason I like buying Eduard kits is if you buy one Profi-Pack kit you end up with enough decals to do 3-4 aircraft off the sheet, and often if paired with the cheaper Weekend Edition version you can do every aircraft on the Profi-pack sheet plus the Weekend Edition aircraft (Weekend Edition boxings are single-subject, no PE, so ideal if you intend to use aftermarket or leftover decals).

Personally I'll probably buy one of the Profi-Pack Spitfire IX's, but I'll likely buy a dozen or so of the Weekend Editions.

Edited November 4, 2012 by mawz

[Otto]

Note I'm comparing to Eduard's last two releases of in-house plastic of comparable aircraft (one from 2011, one from 2012). I seriously doubt that the Spitfire will cost more than the Bf109E they released a few months ago. And Eduard's pricing policies are pretty stable. Even their 'expensive' Limited Edition reboxed kits usually come down to take the kit retail, add the price of the included PE/Resin (often more than the kit if bought separately), add the cost of the decal sheet (which is always 5-7 aircraft and of top-notch quality, Eduard really should sell them as aftermarket) and chop 10% or so off as a discount for buying everything at the same time. They aren't Italieri (who will rebox $30 worth of plastic along with a $15 decal sheet and retail for $60).

And remember, Eduard's Profi-Pack kits usually cost the same as a comparable Tamiya kit of a similar subject, but include PE and a high-quality decal sheet which usually has twice as many subjects as the poor-quality Tamiya sheet (if only Tamiya's decals were as good as their plastic). One reason I like buying Eduard kits is if you buy one Profi-Pack kit you end up with enough decals to do 3-4 aircraft off the sheet, and often if paired with the cheaper Weekend Edition version you can do every aircraft on the Profi-pack sheet plus the Weekend Edition aircraft (Weekend Edition boxings are single-subject, no PE, so ideal if you intend to use aftermarket or leftover decals).

Personally I'll probably buy one of the Profi-Pack Spitfire IX's, but I'll likely buy a dozen or so of the Weekend Editions.

If you are right than it should be about $25 at http://www.hobbyshop...lastic-kits?p=3 That is my preferred place to go for anything made in the Czech republic. That is where I just ordered my 1/144 spitfire for $12. That is about half of what it goes for in the US

Edited November 4, 2012 by Otto

[seawinder]

If you are right than it should be about $25 at http://www.hobbyshop...lastic-kits?p=3 That is my preferred place to go for anything made in the Czech republic. That is where I just ordered my 1/144 spitfire for $12. That is about half of what it goes for in the US

Hey Otto.

Gotta say this: After so much passionate conversation, much of it generated by yourself, about the crying need for a really good, modern Spitfire IX in 1/48, it seems weird to me that you're agonizing about what may be the price for what may well be the kit we've all been waiting for. Of course, if it turns out to have real issues and they're charging big bucks, that's a different matter.

Best,

Pip

Edited November 4, 2012 by seawinder

[sakai]

Everyone is taking lessons from the Chinese.

What did you mean by this statement Otto?

Is it how to make the overpriced, inaccurate, over-rivetted, ridiculously marketed crap they've been supplying in most cases?

Nice kits made but their mysterious "A-team" are so few that it's statistically insignificant.

Mario

in NYC

[Otto]

Hey Otto.

Gotta say this: After so much passionate conversation, much of it generated by yourself, about the crying need for a really good, modern Spitfire IX in 1/48, it seems weird to me that you're agonizing about what may be the price for what may well be the kit we've all been waiting for. Of course, if it turns out to have real issues and they're charging big bucks, that's a different matter.

Best,

Pip

Bulls-eye!!!!!?????!!!!!

[Otto]

What did you mean by this statement Otto?

Is it how to make the overpriced, inaccurate, over-rivetted, ridiculously marketed crap they've been supplying in most cases?

Nice kits made but their mysterious "A-team" are so few that it's statistically insignificant.

Mario

in NYC

Yup--- What you just said.

[Robertson]

Indeed, we have been through this before and you have been proven wrong time after time. No, it is exactly you who is unable to learn.

Manufacturers set the MSRP, and Eduard sells their kits on their website at MSRP price. They have either two MSRP's or horrible conversion rate, as the kit cost 260 Cz Kronas, while in USD they show it as 19.99. As i already pointed out, they charge about 33% more than for example at Hobbyshop.cz. For obvious reasons.

Anything beyond that, that is retailers "fault". So if you buy the Spitfire for 24USD, you are paying about 10 usd into the pocket of the retailer and/or in taxes.

Please tell me: If this kit was priced at 100 USD in your LHS, while it was sold for 20USD or Eduard site (and remember, they are overpricing their kits at their own site), whos fault is the 100USD pricetag? Eduard's?

33% more is meaningless for your argument if it an oddball importer, or if ALL the inventory in that store or country is marked up 33%...

So it is the retailers and not the importers now? Whose next? The dockyard workers union? What seems absurd about all these reasonings is that it assumes the retailers or importers have no competition... Yet they all have competing alternatives they have to deal with... There is only one entity out there that has NO competitors, and that's the company that actually produces the stuff... You really think that doesn't give them clout?

Saying the msrp does not impose a huge pressure on distributors amounts to saying the manufacturer has no power over the typical final price, basically no control over its future relative to other similar companies.... Thus no control over its future given the clout of ONE producer vs a myriad of competing retailers...

Hasegawa's case in 2008 shows Otto original point is generally closer to the truth: Except for Sprue Brothers and a few others, which had for two or three years after 2008 unusually low prices on Hasegawa kits (but which now seem more in line with worldwide prices), Hasegawa prices worldwide were pre-2008 more or less in line with the rest of the industry, and suddenly in late 2008 were jacked-up an incredible 50-70% across the board.

Anyone who knows anything about typical Japanese manufacturer mentality would know that one key feature of many of their producers is to retreat to the home market when times get tough... It is a protected market with peculiar out-of-synch needs, and for many of them that is all they need.

I have spoken to several hobby shop owners since, some with 50+ years of experience in the business, and, with occasional misgivings concerning some importers, none of them blame importers for Hasegawa's grotesque worldwide 50-70% price hike (meaning outside of Japan of course)...

The fact that the "Hasegawa gap" has been demonstrated to be now relatively uniform throughout the world, appearing simultaneously in all markets outside Japan and in almost perfect synch in most places with the gargantuan price hike in msrp of Fall 2008, all that should give anyone a clue as to the clout the msrp's "suggestion" really has...

Robertson

[Otto]

33% more is meaningless for your argument if it an oddball importer, or if ALL the inventory in that store or country is marked up 33%...

So it is the retailers and not the importers now? Whose next? The dockyard workers union? What seems absurd about all these reasonings is that it assumes the retailers or importers have no competition... Yet they all have competing alternatives they have to deal with... There is only one entity out there that has NO competitors, and that's the company that actually produces the stuff... You really think that doesn't give them clout?

Saying the msrp does not impose a huge pressure on distributors amounts to saying the manufacturer has no power over the typical final price, basically no control over its future relative to other similar companies.... Thus no control over its future given the clout of ONE producer vs a myriad of competing retailers...

Hasegawa's case in 2008 shows Otto original point is generally closer to the truth: Except for Sprue Brothers and a few others, which had for two or three years after 2008 unusually low prices on Hasegawa kits (but which now seem more in line with worldwide prices), Hasegawa prices worldwide were pre-2008 more or less in line with the rest of the industry, and suddenly in late 2008 were jacked-up an incredible 50-70% across the board.

Anyone who knows anything about typical Japanese manufacturer mentality would know that one key feature of many of their producers is to retreat to the home market when times get tough... It is a protected market with peculiar out-of-synch needs, and for many of them that is all they need.

I have spoken to several hobby shop owners since, some with 50+ years of experience in the business, and, with occasional misgivings concerning some importers, none of them blame importers for Hasegawa's grotesque worldwide 50-70% price hike (meaning outside of Japan of course)...

The fact that the "Hasegawa gap" has been demonstrated to be now relatively uniform throughout the world, appearing simultaneously in all markets outside Japan and in almost perfect synch in most places with the gargantuan price hike in msrp of Fall 2008, all that should give anyone a clue as to the clout the msrp's "suggestion" really has...

Robertson

I stopped paying head to what he says a long time ago. No concept of the business, Just a lot of hot air. A little strange for Norway don't you think? Every time I see that avatar I cringe and wait for the tripe. Don't bother trying to explain, he knows everything and learns nothing.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otto

[sakai]

Anyone who knows anything about typical Japanese manufacturer mentality would know that one key feature of many of their producers is to retreat to the home market when times get tough... It is a protected market with peculiar out-of-synch needs, and for many of them that is all they need.

Please lecture me on this topic, I'd appreciate it. What I do know though that Hasegawa sells its production based on 2-years contract to 5 selected wholesalers who are exclusively Japanese and have remained unchanged for very long time. That is Hasegawa does not have sales dept.per se. This is a bit at odds with what you claim here. Also I'm particularly interested in what "out-of-synch needs" mean.

Mario

in NYC

[mawz]

The fact that the "Hasegawa gap" has been demonstrated to be now relatively uniform throughout the world, appearing simultaneously in all markets outside Japan and in almost perfect synch in most places with the gargantuan price hike in msrp of Fall 2008, all that should give anyone a clue as to the clout the msrp's "suggestion" really has...

Robertson

You do realize that the Hasegawa Price Jump was essentially due to the massive change in Yen valuation in the fall of 2008 (which led to a massive price jump in a number of areas including camera lenses). Hasegawa, being a relatively small company which relies on 3rd party distribution for foreign sales, chose not to compensate pricing to their distributors and thus we saw massive price jumps. Tamiya, a much larger company which is heavily dependent on foreign markets for their Bread & Butter RC products and who also does their own distribution in large non-Japanese markets ended up eating the currency shift to prevent a similar jump at a very inopportune moment.

[mawz]

Please lecture me on this topic, I'd appreciate it. What I do know though that Hasegawa sells its production based on 2-years contract to 5 selected wholesalers who are exclusively Japanese and have remained unchanged for very long time. That is Hasegawa does not have sales dept.per se. This is a bit at odds with what you claim here. Also I'm particularly interested in what "out-of-synch needs" mean.

Mario

in NYC

The Japanese model market is rather different from the rest of the world, particularly in the massive market for SF/Anime/Game models which are a small niche elsewhere. Hasegawa sells a fair bit into this market, primarily with their Idolmaster series, but also doing Macross and IIRC Gundam models. The Japanese market also tends to be far more amenable to the sort of special decal releases that Hasegawa specializes in.

Of course the reality is that Hasegawa has never looked heavily to foreign sales, choosing to make kits for their domestic market and merely allow export of kits with a market outside of that. Tamiya, the other major Japanese maker is a very different story, selling heavily to foreign markets and being mostly RC oriented, for Armor and Cars, plastic scale models are more of a hobby for them, especially aircraft models.

[jonbryon]

I have spoken to several hobby shop owners since, some with 50+ years of experience in the business, and, with occasional misgivings concerning some importers, none of them blame importers for Hasegawa's grotesque worldwide 50-70% price hike (meaning outside of Japan of course)...

The fact that the "Hasegawa gap" has been demonstrated to be now relatively uniform throughout the world, appearing simultaneously in all markets outside Japan and in almost perfect synch in most places with the gargantuan price hike in msrp of Fall 2008, all that should give anyone a clue as to the clout the msrp's "suggestion" really has...

No. For example, China did not see an across-the-board massive jump in Hasegawa kit prices. Recent releases in China (e.g. 1/48 F-18G) are currently half of the UK RRP and still, at 2008 exchange rates, cheaper than pre-2008 UK prices.

Jon

[Dutchbird]

Just my uninformed euro 0.02

Part of the 'high' price of Eduard kits on their website might be that it includes VAT (roughly 20%) in their prices. I might have overlooked it, but unlike some other online stores, they do not have separate prices for National-, EU- and non-EU customers. These sites seem to have two (or three) separate prices, the one for non-EU citizens usually without VAT, AFAIK.

Kind regards,

Harm

[Otto]

Just my uninformed euro 0.02

Part of the 'high' price of Eduard kits on their website might be that it includes VAT (roughly 20%) in their prices. I might have overlooked it, but unlike some other online stores, they do not have separate prices for National-, EU- and non-EU customers. These sites seem to have two (or three) separate prices, the one for non-EU citizens usually without VAT, AFAIK.

Kind regards,

Harm

That might be understandable if the US was in the European Union, but it is not and the prices to the US are higher than to anywhere in Europe. Here in the US that is called "Price Gouging" and is actually illegal. So like any other smart person out there I find a way of circumventing that. Since Eduard will not give the US customers the courtesy of giving us the credit that we can figure out that they are not only making the extra money for not having to pay the VAT but on top of that charging even more. Meaning, that since the prices to the US are about 20% more than to Europe, they keep the $25% VAT plus the 20% markup. This means that they gouge the US customer an additional 45% over the European one. Do I blame them? NO because this is with agreement with their major importer here in the US which is MMD (Squadron Shop) to protect them and allow them to make a lot more money. They do what they have to to protect their major source of income from the US. We as US Modelers just have to find a proper way to circumvent the MMD agreement. And yes I do know the top brass there personally also and they are dirt bags to the Nth degree. They are the Major reason I got out of the business and went back into engineering. When Alexandra up in Canada had the Eduard line back many years ago things were much more different and much more fair. When MMD got hold of the line the US Modeler got the shaft on Eduard products.

[vince14]

I couldn't be arsed to read through all the mis-information and personal insults, so I decided to do a little research on whether Eduard, Hannants or Squadron were cheaper for three random, recent Eduard releases.

Eduard 1/144 Spitfire Mk.IXe (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 14.95 Euros = 19.11 USD

From Squadron Shop: 17.96 USD = 14.04 Euro

From Hannants: 10.99 GBP = 13.73 Euro = 17.54 USD

Eduard 1/72 Bf-110C/D (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 25.95 Euro = 33.18 USD

From Squadron Shop: 31.46 USD = 24.60 Euro

From Hannants: 19.50 GBP = 24.36 Euro = 31.12 USD

Eduard 1/32 Bf-109E-7 Trop (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 56.25 Euro = 71.91 USD

From Squadron Shop: 67.46 USD = 52.76 Euro

From Hannants: 41.80 GBP = 52.21 Euro = 66.73 USD

So buying direct from Eduard is slightly more expensive than buying from Hannants or Squadron.com. I fail to see where this massive 45% 'price gouging' is coming from - even if you look at the List Price on the Squadron website, it's still within a few cents of the Eduard shop.

Vince

[Otto]

I couldn't be arsed to read through all the mis-information and personal insults, so I decided to do a little research on whether Eduard, Hannants or Squadron were cheaper for three random, recent Eduard releases.

Eduard 1/144 Spitfire Mk.IXe (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 14.95 Euros = 19.11 USD

From Squadron Shop: 17.96 USD = 14.04 Euro

From Hannants: 10.99 GBP = 13.73 Euro = 17.54 USD

Eduard 1/72 Bf-110C/D (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 25.95 Euro = 33.18 USD

From Squadron Shop: 31.46 USD = 24.60 Euro

From Hannants: 19.50 GBP = 24.36 Euro = 31.12 USD

Eduard 1/32 Bf-109E-7 Trop (not including shipping)

From Eduard Shop: 56.25 Euro = 71.91 USD

From Squadron Shop: 67.46 USD = 52.76 Euro

From Hannants: 41.80 GBP = 52.21 Euro = 66.73 USD

So buying direct from Eduard is slightly more expensive than buying from Hannants or Squadron.com. I fail to see where this massive 45% 'price gouging' is coming from - even if you look at the List Price on the Squadron website, it's still within a few cents of the Eduard shop.

Vince

Vince, Are you in the US or i another country? Because depending on which country you are in you will see diferent prices on difwerent items.When I go to those sites this is what I see

Eduard $19.95 (US Retail)

Squadron $17.95 (-10%)

Hannants $14.63 (-27%)

Hobbyshop.CZ $12.04 (-40%)

The postage charged fom all of them to me is almost identical +/- a $ or two.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otto

[AlCZ]

Hey, where is problem ? You lucky Americans guy's. Look at this - when i can buy a new I am a spammer, please report this post. for example - in USA - i pay a 32 000CZK. When i can buy the SAME I am a spammer, please report this post. in Czech Republic - i pay a 45 000CZK !!!! A new Ford Mustang cost in USA 450 000CZK, in Czech Republic 750 000 CZK.... You have a very cheap fuel, electronic, meal.... and you have really problem with price of Eduard kits ? Here in Euro is change rate 1:1 USD/Euro.... OK, when is Spit relase, send me pair bucks - and i bought it and send via Czech Post... I hope for a price 250CZK for OverTress... OMG. All in America is cheaper....

[Otto]

Hey, where is problem ? You lucky Americans guy's. Look at this - when i can buy a new I am a spammer, please report this post. for example - in USA - i pay a 32 000CZK. When i can buy the SAME I am a spammer, please report this post. in Czech Republic - i pay a 45 000CZK !!!! A new Ford Mustang cost in USA 450 000CZK, in Czech Republic 750 000 CZK.... You have a very cheap fuel, electronic, meal.... and you have really problem with price of Eduard kits ? Here in Euro is change rate 1:1 USD/Euro.... OK, when is Spit relase, send me pair bucks - and i bought it and send via Czech Post... I hope for a price 250CZK for OverTress... OMG. All in America is cheaper....

I have not seen an exchange rate of 1:1 Euro/Dollar since the Euro came out. The exchange rate has been about $1.3:E1.0 We may havr less expensive gas and cheaper food but I pay $1100/Month Medical insurance and 10% sails tax on everything I buy and 25% incom tax and social security tax from every $1 I make. Not to forget $2.50/10Mi on the tool roads and Illinois is full of those.

[caiotfjr]

I have not seen an exchange rate of 1:1 Euro/Dollar since the Euro came out. The exchange rate has been about $1.3:E1.0 We may havr less expensive gas and cheaper food but I pay $1100/Month Medical insurance and 10% sails tax on everything I buy and 25% incom tax and social security tax from every $1 I make. Not to forget $2.50/10Mi on the tool roads and Illinois is full of those.

I really think we should avoid comparing tax policies around the world, as it could turn fastly into a flame war for political reasons

[Jennings]

Ooooooooooookay boys and girls. How about we talk about the Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IXc for a little while?

[Edgar]

Ooooooooooookay boys and girls. How about we talk about the Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IXc for a little while?

Now, there's a radical point of view, if you like.

[Otto]

Now, there's a radical point of view, if you like.

I am looking forward to the kit as long as it is the best representation on the market and affordable.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Otto

[caiotfjr]

Ooooooooooookay boys and girls. How about we talk about the Eduard 1/48 Spitfire IXc for a little while?

I think it's a little difficult to talk about something it's nothing more than "vapourware"...