phasephantomphixer Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 So I have two sheets of Yellowhammer 1/32 F-4J Blue Angels decals and am wondering how different are the 1/32 CAM BA sheets? Looking at the Yellowhammer sheet yellow, it appears to be a creamier (not bright lemon) yellow as other Blue Angels sheets. Does CAM have the typical brighter yellow? Do they include crew names? Main concern is if close enough to use together, or worth getting the CAM sheets since still available? I know the Yellowhammer instructions are extensive in information, but need only location basics when actually applying the decals. Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 If you used the words "creamy" or "lemon" in relation to Blue Angels yellow, then it's wrong. BA's use a deep orange yellow. Nothing creamy, lemony, mustardy, or otherwise foodie about it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Have you an answer for me besides telling me I am wrong for using color descriptions? Useful replies only Please. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I did answer your question. If any of those words spring to your mind to describe a decal, then that decal is simply wrong. BA yellow cannot reasonably be described using any of the words in your post. Therefore, the decals are most likely wrong. Contrary to popular belief, you shouldn't take everything you read online personally... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 the best way to provide you with a Phantom era Blue Angels paint chip is to have you go and buy the little Testors yellow in a bottle,,,,,,,,get the Gloss Yellow that has no other descriptors in the name paint that on a stick on label on a card, apply two coats, and then chip out your favorite paint range to match that color 13655 has been described as "Blue Angels Yellow", "light yellow", and as a replacement for the very old "Lemon Yellow",,,,,,,but, a guy just recently posted that 13538 was the right yellow,,but, I think that "Orange Yellow" is far too orange to match looking at gloss pictures in a paper book, the yellow varies on that same two pages of about 10 photos,,,,,,,,so, "old Testors Yellow" looks to be about the average color you see go ahead and use the names for Navair aircraft,,,,,the use of names by the Brass when describing the trim colors is what caused so many various interpretations of the regs,,,,,,,,,the Sailors and Marines didn't really know which Yellow to use when that is all the chart said,,,,,,,or which Light Blue to use,,,,,out of all the various FS numbers that had the same names,,,,,so, they "picked one they liked" and ran with it Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 I did answer your question. If any of those words spring to your mind to describe a decal, then that decal is simply wrong. BA yellow cannot reasonably be described using any of the words in your post. Therefore, the decals are most likely wrong. Contrary to popular belief, you shouldn't take everything you read online personally... It was "Hammered" into my head that the Yellowhammer BA sheet was printed with a very accurate tint for the F-4J yellow "at the time", but would that be true the yellow was a different tint than other years? When laying the sheet with all other BA sheets it is not as bright or rich (place what word will properly describe a yellow that is not as bright for you here) so am also asking if anyone that has the 1/32 CAM sheet has (or can) compare it with the Yellowhammer sheet? Yes, this is a constant discussion issue but I plan to use someones decals as I will not be masking and painting the scheme-way too much work. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) since I know what is coming, here is the "modern source" for the info about names back then, it was MIL-I-18646G(AS) 27 October 1971, superseding, etc beginning on Page 26 1st Squadron or Unit- Insignia Red (*Note, this is the format in the original document, "names", but no FS numbers) 2nd Squadron or Unit- Orange-Yellow 3rd Squadron or Unit- Light Blue 4th Squadron or Unit- International Orange 5th Squadron or Unit- Light Green 6th Squadron or Unit- Black 7th Squadron or Unit- Insignia Blue Other Squadrons - Maroon the chart was changed and given in the same format later on, in May 1993, indicating that the Navy was still ATTEMPTING to meet the goal of eliminating color names from being in general use,,,,,,,,while still using the names when the Brass "wrote down" to the masses also note, that very few of the above colors is the same as what a non-naval person would consider to be "names that describe the color" as commonly used on the street the Maroon was NOT a red and blue mixture, it was a dark red in the brown group,,,,,,the mixture of red and blue that most people consider Maroon was the USN color Magenta, which was also an assigned trim color in a later edition of the above table Light Green is similar,,,,,,some of them look just like Willow Green, and some paints named Light or Medium Green would be called Dark Green by everyone that sees them (edited because I have no idea why I typed page 30 instead of page 26) Edited November 12, 2012 by Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 and yes,,,,,,,,there are a lot of different "Blue Angel Blue" and "Blue Angel Yellow" colors over the years of the team's existance your only shot is to somehow find out what pantone or FS chip (or whatever standard) was used to make the decals or chip out a lot of yellow paints, and see who matches up best to your decal sheets Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) the best way to provide you with a Phantom era Blue Angels paint chip is to have you go and buy the little Testors yellow in a bottle,,,,,,,,get the Gloss Yellow that has no other descriptors in the name paint that on a stick on label on a card, apply two coats, and then chip out your favorite paint range to match that color 13655 has been described as "Blue Angels Yellow", "light yellow", and as a replacement for the very old "Lemon Yellow",,,,,,,but, a guy just recently posted that 13538 was the right yellow,,but, I think that "Orange Yellow" is far too orange to match looking at gloss pictures in a paper book, the yellow varies on that same two pages of about 10 photos,,,,,,,,so, "old Testors Yellow" looks to be about the average color you see go ahead and use the names for Navair aircraft,,,,,the use of names by the Brass when describing the trim colors is what caused so many various interpretations of the regs,,,,,,,,,the Sailors and Marines didn't really know which Yellow to use when that is all the chart said,,,,,,,or which Light Blue to use,,,,,out of all the various FS numbers that had the same names,,,,,so, they "picked one they liked" and ran with it yes I recall it claimed the original Testors Gloss yellow was a close match. I have several bottles in the stash. I also have the Model Master BA yellow. You are saying to make a color chip and match that to the decals I have and that will give correct color regardless of year the decal depicts? (1969 F-4J). Okay, well if there were slight changes through the years I will have to decide which of the two F-4J BA sheets has the closest look and go with it-if they are different that is... Edited November 12, 2012 by phasephantomphixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I am saying that the square Testors was closer to the real color, so it has a better chance of matching up the MM paint line and colors were developed long after the Blues had retired the Phantom,,,,,if the BA Yellow matches with anything, I would expect it to match the Skyhawk or Hornet Yellow, not the Phantom for what it is worth today,,,,,quite a few years ago, the Testors Square paint (Gloss) matched up okay with the yellow decals in the 1/72 Revell Phantom kits,,,,,,,but, I wouldn't bet they would be a perfect match today,,,,,,,,,the paint may have changed colors, the decals may have aged, etc but, you have to start somewhere,,,,,and you have some paints to dry and hold up to the decals,,,,,sounds free to me Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 if you need it, tomorrow I can take a photo of the 7 or 8 different yellows that fit the 1969 FS colors I have matches in hobby paint for a slightly light 13432 a good matching 33538 2 good matching 13538 a good matching 23655 a good matching 13655 and a slightly light 23655 I do not know which of them match the "current FS system" though, because I don't know "which of each three" was chosen by the GSA to be the "B standard" Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 if you need it, tomorrow I can take a photo of the 7 or 8 different yellows that fit the 1969 FS colors I have matches in hobby paint for a slightly light 13432 a good matching 33538 2 good matching 13538 a good matching 23655 a good matching 13655 and a slightly light 23655 I do not know which of them match the "current FS system" though, because I don't know "which of each three" was chosen by the GSA to be the "B standard" Offer appreciated, but no bother, I will go with what you described with an old square bottle of mine (19 cents I think the cap says) but hope someone out there can still give a comparison of the two 1/32 sheets? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joe Hegedus Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 MM Blue Angel Yellow is too light to use for a Blue Angel airplane. It is a much better match for the "between the wars" Lemon Yellow. Now, on to something that may be useful... I have before me a 1/48 F-4J Phantom that I built a few years ago using the Yellowhammer decals. Once on the blue of the jet, the color of mine is a very close match to the MM "Chrome Yellow" with which I painted the aft Sparrow shapes and the wing, fin and stabilizer tips. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 did you use one layer of decals Joe?,,,,,if you did, that is how most people would build, I would think and the raw decal on the sheet may have allowed for that color shift after application) my match might not be a lot of use, because I only built one jet from my set as a BA, and doubled up the decals, all except for the number and BuNo, of course Quote Link to post Share on other sites
redcorvette Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 It was "Hammered" into my head that the Yellowhammer BA sheet was printed with a very accurate tint for the F-4J yellow "at the time", but would that be true the yellow was a different tint than other years? When laying the sheet with all other BA sheets it is not as bright or rich (place what word will properly describe a yellow that is not as bright for you here) so am also asking if anyone that has the 1/32 CAM sheet has (or can) compare it with the Yellowhammer sheet? Yes, this is a constant discussion issue but I plan to use someones decals as I will not be masking and painting the scheme-way too much work. I have both sheets, but am traveling on business until Friday. I can post some photos to compare when I get back home if you can wait until then. Mark Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Joe Hegedus Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 did you use one layer of decals Joe?,,,,,if you did, that is how most people would build, I would think and the raw decal on the sheet may have allowed for that color shift after application) my match might not be a lot of use, because I only built one jet from my set as a BA, and doubled up the decals, all except for the number and BuNo, of course Yep, single layer decal. I wish they would have done it in 1/72; the Hasegawa Blue Angel F-4J decals are really horrible in color, but there were no alternatives when I built it so I mixed some "yellow" to match and used that for the trim. Now that CAM has a 1/72 sheet, maybe I need to do another one... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siamese11 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 hi everyone. phasephantomphixer, I had the same question and I did track down a set of 1/32 yellowhammer BA decals for the F-4J for the 1969 season. I don't have a set of the CAM decals to compare but maybe this will help you a little. I did email CAM and this is what they sent me. As for the paint, I just recently received an email from the Blue Angel historian and was very surprised to learn that the apparent color change during the 1971 season was due to a change from lacquer to polyurethane paint. The FS number is the same but the high gloss of the poly makes it look different. And he also told me that they use KRYLON TRUE BLUE in a spray can for touch ups while they are on the road. WHO KNEW. As for the yellow, it is supposed to be Model Master chrome yellow. I just finished an F-4 and it matched perfectly. I use camouflage grey as a base coat followed by a light cover coat of insignia yellow and finished off with the chrome yellow. A lot of extra work, but the color comes out just right. I used the Krylon TRUE BLUE sprayed through my airbrush and it is perfect in my opinion. Kinda hard to argue with the BLUE ANGEL HISTORIAN, if any one should know it would be him. Our decal instructions list a mix of Model Master paints that according to an ALLEGED Blue Angel expert should be correct. I think the Krylon True Blue looks way better and all you have to do is get it out of the spray can and it is ready to shoot in an airbrush. I did spray a test plane straight from the can, but as usual it comes out way to to heavy. But I must admit that it dries to a high gloss and didn't cover the detail. I still think using an airbrush is the best way to go. As a matter of fact I frequently decant paint from cans and spray it with my airbrush. Hope I answered your questions. Thank you Ray Byers CAM Decals USN Ret. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 (edited) I have both sheets, but am traveling on business until Friday. I can post some photos to compare when I get back home if you can wait until then. Mark That would be great and appreciated-no hurry. I just want to remember to check back to this thread for your findings! I am guessing the CAM sheet will appear brighter now that I read Siamese11 reply (Thanks!) with Ray Byers finding that they switched paint types in 1971. Guess that goes along with the other interesting BA fact that they ran short type nozzled -8 engines in their J's. Edited November 13, 2012 by phasephantomphixer Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 you get options with the engine area, also they started with B engines in J airframes,,,,then some got actual J engines later on there is a good formation shot of 4 aircraft, and at least one has the J engines in that photo then you get two variations of the rear unpainted area,,,,one is of course the "Blue Angel pattern" of a straight line on the top part,,,,,the other is the standard Phantom notched top line Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phasephantomphixer Posted November 13, 2012 Author Share Posted November 13, 2012 you get options with the engine area, also they started with B engines in J airframes,,,,then some got actual J engines later on there is a good formation shot of 4 aircraft, and at least one has the J engines in that photo then you get two variations of the rear unpainted area,,,,one is of course the "Blue Angel pattern" of a straight line on the top part,,,,,the other is the standard Phantom notched top line All exciting stuff Rex, any way to clarify "rear unpainted area" pertaining to straight line on top & notched top line? Is this back of spine or sides of fuselage each side of Vertical Stab? Thanks. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 the top of the natural metal area,,,,,,,,or from another perspective, the bottom of the Blue Angels Blue paint most Blue Angel models depict the line from just above and in front of the engine cans, and then go up and back in a straight line on most aircraft, that is correct,,,,,but, on some photos, you can see that that area is painted and left metal in the same way as other Naval Phantoms, with that notched look #7 153081 in August 1971, is a B engine, notched metal area bird, with blue front dummy Sparrows and Yellow rear, so was early #1 153083 but later, in 1973, #3 153084 is a B engine, with the "straight" metal area, with all four missiles in Yellow also in 1973, #5 and #6 are in the same photo,,,,,,both "straight" metal line, both with four yellow missiles, #5 153876 had J engines, #6 153076 had B engines (153876 is a "real J" that got added later) those are in the pages of the Double Ugly book,,,,,,I mention that so you can look the shots up if you want none of my own photos from when I saw them as a teen show anything other than B cans, notched metal area, and 2 blue and 2 yellow missiles,,,,,,,but, that was when I was 13, in 1970, the team was fairly new to Phantoms, so everything was still a matched set Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Scott R Wilson Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 All exciting stuff Rex, any way to clarify "rear unpainted area" pertaining to straight line on top & notched top line? Is this back of spine or sides of fuselage each side of Vertical Stab? Thanks. The bare area on the sides just in front of the stabilators. Here's an early photo and another one taken in October 1972: Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 thanks for posting those Scott,,,,,,,I own a ton of Blue Angel photos,,,,,,,but, only "own" a small percentage of them,,,,,,,and as I said,,,,,,they would be no help, they all look like the "recruitment jet" (#7) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Siamese11 Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 Scott great pictures and I forgot about the two different engines in them for the nozzles. Scott has anyone got any pictures of the cockpits? I know from the Yellowhammer decals that it shows modifications was just wondering if there were some pictures of the cockpits. I remember when both the Blue Angels and the Thunderbirds were flying the Phantom and working on building both of them. Dan Quote Link to post Share on other sites
BMH Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 I have both sheets and all I can add to this discussion is that the YH sheet looks too orange, and the CAM sheet looks like the yellow I see in photos. That might change once either decal is actually on a model, but that's what it looks like to my Mark 1 eyeballs. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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