Shuttle Wars - Monogram Shuttle Window Solution

[DutyCat]

Here is the latest attack on the window problem that I have managed to come up with. It is still only a partial solution as on the real shuttle the windows are all nested together. What is really needed is a whole new reshaped upper deck beanie cap. Still, this would be an acceptable solution for most builds.

I can't get Photobucket links to work at all right now, so here is a link to the dutycat blog.

Monogram Window Fix?

r/Gil Gregg

[crowe-t]

Gil,

So far the fix looks good, however the windows look a bit on the small side.

What did you use to make this? Epoxy putty?

Mike.

Edited November 16, 2012 by crowe-t

[niart17]

Looks like a very good solution but I have to agree, the windows look a tad small. The frames between the windows are only about a quarter of the size you have there. I think one of the problems with a pre-cut glue in insert is the front two windows. The very inner corner of the opening in the kit is almost exactly where the corner of the opening of the real front windows fall. Then the actual opening slopes away from the kit opening. So any pre-cut piece is going to be very very thin (maybe even open) in that corner. I was going to put together a composite image of the kit overlaid on the real thing and try to figure out what would work best. Keep in mind, I'm not knocking your solution.

Bill

[crowe-t]

I have the first edition(Young Astronauts release) of the Monogram stack and from what I can see the middle windows(on each side) are too wide. The window area does need to be re-shaped on this kit to make it accurate or close to it. When I build mine I might re-shape that area and use some clear styrene sheet or cut the kit's clear windows apart to use behind the openings. Well this is just a quick assessment I made and I'm sure when I jump into it I'll come up with another idea. Jay's solution still seems like the best way to go.

Mike.

[DutyCat]

I think the window size is fine. I did some eyeballing, but also used the windows on my Revell orbiter as a sizing guide. The reason the windows look small in the photo is because they are simple thin plastic sheet laminate over the original Monogram clear pieces with some putty to fill in the gaps and shape them. The geometry on the original clear pieces is way off because of they are oversized. As a consequence, you can't just reduce the size of the windows and have them sit on the same pane. The panes are simply too big. As you see, you end up with large spaces between the windows, which on the real ship are nested very close together. There is no fix for this short of a complete upper flight deck beanie cap rebuild to change the very geometry of the window architecture. I am going to use my jacked up shuttle to try this...as an experiment. I may be able to pull it off...I may not.

What is offered here is a half solution...better than before, but not what it needs to be.

I will take some more pics this weekend so you can see how they sit in the frames.

Edited November 16, 2012 by DutyCat

[crowe-t]

Gill,

Your current solution does look very good and is much better then the previous attempt. BTW, the Revell orbiter's windows aren't accurate either, especially the 2 front windows which are smaller then they should be relative to the other windows.

[DutyCat]

I have decided to go ahead and produce a complete new beany cap right now and get it over with. I will craft some new window frames based upon the ones in the pic at the top of this thread, then set them in a new cap. While I am at it, I think I will hand laminate the tile around the windows as well, as fitting decals to my custom work will probably be problematic. I am also going to attempt to laminate some tile on the OMS pods, since that is the only other place that now has tile on the upper surface of the spacecraft.

I also am going to experiment with a technique I have come up with to represent the thermal blanketing. So, if all goes well, the upper surface of the shuttle will be tiled and "blanketed." The bottom is another story. I think I am just going to go with decals there.

After the surface treatments, paint, and decals, I will weather the entire orbiter. I am good at that and don't see any problems there. Getting to that point is the challenge.

Photos and video forthcoming, but not right away, as what I have planned is quite a lot of work. In the end, this project looks like it will have taken over a year, since I started it last year over the Christmas break.

Gil

Edited November 21, 2012 by DutyCat

[niart17]

Sounds good Gil, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I wish I had a second Monogrm orbiter to hack up and experiment with making a beanie cap.

If you don't mind me asking what technique are you going to try for the blankets? If it's a secret that's cool, I can be patient. I am considering possibly using aluminum foil that has been burnished over a quited pattern surface. the plus side of that is it's thin enough so it won't be too much of a surface change. The down side is each blanket will need to be made individually in order to get the seams to look right. I've tried a small square and it comes out pretty nice.

The other possiblity I thought of is robbing the zimmerit (sp?) technique from the armor guys and use a thin putty with the pattern pressed into it. That wouldn't be as forgiving though and could take a lot of work making it consistent and hard to remove if mistakes are made.

I love it when a specific modeling problem produces really varied processes to accomplish. It's always nice to see other ideas. Keep it up!

Bill

[DutyCat]

Sounds good Gil, I can't wait to see what you come up with. I wish I had a second Monogrm orbiter to hack up and experiment with making a beanie cap.

If you don't mind me asking what technique are you going to try for the blankets? If it's a secret that's cool, I can be patient. I am considering possibly using aluminum foil that has been burnished over a quited pattern surface. the plus side of that is it's thin enough so it won't be too much of a surface change. The down side is each blanket will need to be made individually in order to get the seams to look right. I've tried a small square and it comes out pretty nice.

The other possiblity I thought of is robbing the zimmerit (sp?) technique from the armor guys and use a thin putty with the pattern pressed into it. That wouldn't be as forgiving though and could take a lot of work making it consistent and hard to remove if mistakes are made.

I love it when a specific modeling problem produces really varied processes to accomplish. It's always nice to see other ideas. Keep it up!

Bill

Well, I can tell you I am going to try to make two beany caps, one for early shuttles and one for late.

The zimmerit approach is in fact part of, but not all, of my blanket solution. I have thought about the surgical tape method, but cutting it precisely and fitting it so the seams match up precisely might be an issue. I think what I am planning has a good shot at working, but you never know about these things until you actually try them. In any case, the whole project is plagued with obstacles that must be overcome to get master level results. You try to anticipate problems and come up with solutions, but this project is especially challenging. If you figure everything out, a spectacular shuttle can be built. That is why I am trying to document everything, so that future builders will be able to see all of the landmines beforehand and hopefully avoid them.

r/Gil

Edited November 21, 2012 by DutyCat

[Jay Chladek]

Two "beanie caps"? Why? Shuttle windows were the same on the airframes from Columbia to Endeavour (and even Enterprise to a certain extent although its TPS was different since they were fake tiles). Only minor differences that came about where the higher amount of AFRSI blankets used on Discovery and Atlantis, but eventually, LRSI tiles were added back I believe due to their resistance to impact damage. Now if you are going back all the way to the windows on the aft flight deck for tiles (such as with Columbia and Challenger) then I can maybe see that. But it does seem like a lot of work to put into an insert plug when any detail you add to the plug is going to have to get sanded and blended into the kit detail anyway.

But, I'll be interested to see the results just the same.

[DutyCat]

Two "beanie caps"? Why? Shuttle windows were the same on the airframes from Columbia to Endeavour (and even Enterprise to a certain extent although its TPS was different since they were fake tiles). Only minor differences that came about where the higher amount of AFRSI blankets used on Discovery and Atlantis, but eventually, LRSI tiles were added back I believe due to their resistance to impact damage. Now if you are going back all the way to the windows on the aft flight deck for tiles (such as with Columbia and Challenger) then I can maybe see that. But it does seem like a lot of work to put into an insert plug when any detail you add to the plug is going to have to get sanded and blended into the kit detail anyway.

But, I'll be interested to see the results just the same.

Well, I was thinking about going with one fully tiled for old Columbia/Challenger, and one blanketed/tiled for the later Discovery//Atlantis/Endeavor. Or, I could go with one smoothie and one D/A/E, the later featuring the tile around the windows only, as it sort stands on its own and would not have to be blended with tile/blankets on an adjacent body part. That way, if a person wants to do it all with decals on the smoothie they can, or add the tile/blanket by scratch as suits them. We'll see how things turn out once I get further into it. Maybe I will just do a later shuttle cap and be done with it. I suppose one could always sand down the tile detail if they don't want it.

Edited November 23, 2012 by DutyCat

[K2Pete]

Can you explain what you mean by a 'beanie cap"?

And if I understand you correctly, are you gonna take a shuttle's nose section, and make a master, say from the star-trackers up, and vacuform it with clear styrene and then rework that new piece? For new windows?

It seems to be a helluva lot of work, that's why I'm not sure what you mean.

Thanx Gil

Pete

[DutyCat]

Can you explain what you mean by a 'beanie cap"?

And if I understand you correctly, are you gonna take a shuttle's nose section, and make a master, say from the star-trackers up, and vacuform it with clear styrene and then rework that new piece? For new windows?

It seems to be a helluva lot of work, that's why I'm not sure what you mean.

Thanx Gil

Pete

I have cut out the flight deck area back from that deep line that goes across the nose behind the thrusters, and up from the fine raised line that goes from the thruster area back towards the cargo bay. The cut is made where the maximum natural curvature is. If you follow that line, it will intersect the cargo bay about a quarter inch or so above the cargo bay hinge line.

I am presently framing out completely new windows out of sheet styrene and will use them to rebuild the window area. After that I am going to tile around them with very thin strip styrene to represent the tile pattern on Discovery, Atlantis, and Endeavor. Then I am going to cast the whole thing out of clear resin. At that point, I should be able to drop it right back on the orbiter and be good to go!

Not sure how it will turn out, but I am hopeful. There is a lot of trial an error associated with scratchbuilding work. Stay tuned!