the best airbrush "trouble free"

[KING57]

I just step up to my first double action airbrush and got a Grex Tritium TS with the pistol style

trigger. It's was easy to use the first time out. and to clean.

[Dale Neid]

Hey, All,

New here, but found this thread and just had to put in my 2 cents. I have used Paasches for over 30 years. I have a 30 yr old H single action and a 17 yr old VL with all 3 tips/needles. I just bought a Talon as well. I did try an Iwata a few weeks back. Bought it on sale and the place a great refund policy. I just could not get the Iwata to do what my VL can do; the Iwata was returned. Is that because I have used my VL for so long? I am sure that has something do with it. It is because my VL is an older brush and maybe built better than the new ones? Not sure about that. A friend has a newer Millenium and I compared it against my VL. Both seem to be of damned good quality.

After having said all this.... it is a matter of the person behind the brush. Go slow, understand what thinning, pressure, and trigger throws work well for a certain application. Take your time and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. I can get my VL to throw around 1-2mm lines all day with enamels (Testors and Humbrol) thinned about 20-30% and at 8-10 psi. Love that for those crazy Luftwaffe camos.

The Talon is ok, I am still getting used to a gravity feed brush. I do have the smallest and next size tip/needle for it. I did polish out the tip, needle, and trigger with sandpaper (200 down to 2000 grit) and it is a damned smooth action now. BTW, I do this with all my airbrushes and I am pretty anal about cleaning them as well. I just need to spend more time with it. In side by side comparisons, I preferred the Talon to the Iwata.

Later,

Dale

Edited December 26, 2012 by Dale Neid

[denstore]

Hey, All,

New here, but found this thread and just had to put in my 2 cents. I have used Paasches for over 30 years. I have a 30 yr old H single action and a 17 yr old VL with all 3 tips/needles. I just bought a Talon as well. I did try an Iwata a few weeks back. Bought it on sale and the place a great refund policy. I just could not get the Iwata to do what my VL can do; the Iwata was returned. Is that because I have used my VL for so long? I am sure that has something do with it. It is because my VL is an older brush and maybe built better than the new ones? Not sure about that. A friend has a newer Millenium and I compared it against my VL. Both seem to be of damned good quality.

After having said all this.... it is a matter of the person behind the brush. Go slow, understand what thinning, pressure, and trigger throws work well for a certain application. Take your time and PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE. I can get my VL to throw around 1-2mm lines all day with enamels (Testors and Humbrol) thinned about 20-30% and at 8-10 psi. Love that for those crazy Luftwaffe camos.

The Talon is ok, I am still getting used to a gravity feed brush. I do have the smallest and next size tip/needle for it. I did polish out the tip, needle, and trigger with sandpaper (200 down to 2000 grit) and it is a damned smooth action now. BTW, I do this with all my airbrushes and I am pretty anal about cleaning them as well. I just need to spend more time with it. In side by side comparisons, I preferred the Talon to the Iwata.

Later,

Dale

What Iwata was it? What was it you wanted it to do?

[Dale Neid]

What Iwata was it? What was it you wanted it to do?

If I remember correctly, it was an HP-C, I THINK from the Eclipse line. However, I am not sure on the line. I wanted it to get down to as fine a line as my VL can, yet be able to spray a broader area as well. All things my VL can VERY well. I had huge problems getting the Iwata to get to fine lines. The best I could get were about twice the size that my VL can throw.

Please note that I am not saying Iwatas are bad brushes. The build quality was outstanding. It was just not the brush for me.

Dale

Edited December 26, 2012 by Dale Neid

[denstore]

Probably an HP-CS Eclipse then. It must have been either faulty or you havn't found the right thinning for it. It's capable of sub-millimeter lines, with the right mixture.

[Don Wheeler]

Or maybe an HP-CR with a .5mm nozzle.

Don

[denstore]

Or maybe an HP-CR with a .5mm nozzle.

Don

Possible, but then it wasn't an Eclipse.

[RichardL]

"trouble free" for me is Iwata Revolution gravity feed. Just fill the cup with paint and spray.

[Dale Neid]

Hey, All,

The nozzle was 0.3 mm on the Iwata. As I said before, the Iwata just did not work for ME. I was using the same mix of paint and thinner in the Iwata as I was in the VL. My VL consistently produced finer lines than the Iwata. I went back and found the sample sheet of styrene I was shooting onto and measured my results. The VL could get down to just under 1mm all day. The best I could get the Iwata down to was somewhere between 1.5mm and 2mm. I was talking with a friend who owns an Iwata (he was there when I was shooting with it as well), he made a comment that he was surprised the Iwata could not get down to the VL's level of throw. We dbl checked the brush, tore it down, cleaned it and ensured we re-assembled it correctly. Still could not get the Iwata under 1.5mm. Now, my VL was been tuned up (polishing of needle, tip, action) extensively. It is smooth as silk in its action. The Iwata was used stock out of the box, I did not want to put a return at risk with any tuning up.

Now, is this a case of the fact that my VL and I have been working together for over 15 yrs? That my fingers are just used to the touch my VL requires? I have no idea. What is interesting is my friend borrowed my VL to try it in his setup. He was able to achieve as fine if not finer results with the VL than his Iwata. He was surprised. He also loved the feel of my VL. We are in the process of tuning up his Iwata. However, his Iwata (I do not know what model is was) would get to just under 1mm as well.

I am not trying to start a holy war thread of Paasche vs Iwata. The Iwata I tried was a damn nice brush of outstanding build quality. It just would not shoot down as fine as my VL. Could I have gotten the Iwata down as fine with adjusting mixes? I do not doubt that I could have. But, why would I put in that effort when my VL does everything I want a brush to do? Heck, I have painted an entire motorcycles with it, I just varied what needle/tip I was using across the MC paint job.

Dale

Edited December 27, 2012 by Dale Neid

[denstore]

As I said before, the Iwata just did not work for ME. I was using the same mix of paint and thinner in the Iwata as I was in the VL.

There's your problem. You used the same mix in the Iwata as in the Paasche. The Iwata would have needed more thinning.

What about air pressure? Same or different? Higher or lower? The HP-C is a gravity fed 0.3mm, while the Paasche VL uses a lot more air for its siphon feed and 0.5mm nozzle. To make the Iwata perform at its peak, both needs to be adjusted. Just as you probably had to experiment a bit to find what mix suited your VL when you started years ago.

I'm not saying that you should have kept the Iwata. If you are satisfied with the VL, no reason to change. But your problems with the Iwata sounds more user than hardware related.

Every new airbrush is a new experience. Even when keeping in the same brand. Sometimes even with same brand and model.

[galileo1]

I've said this before, the best I've found is the Iwata Revolution CR. I call it the AK-47 of the Iwata range: its cheap, has pretty good accuracy (better than most) and you can treat it like crap and it will do the job no matter what. I've had one for four years and haven't disassembled it for over two years. The cleaning regimen basically consists of putting thinner into the cup and spraying it out and wiping it clean. I'd urge you to look into it.

Agree completely with this! I love mine (as I also do my HP-CH). It's got a 5mm needle but I can get down to hair line spraying. It's just a matter of proper paint thinning and pressure.

Rob

Edited December 27, 2012 by TOPGUN

[Dale Neid]

There's your problem. You used the same mix in the Iwata as in the Paasche. The Iwata would have needed more thinning.

What about air pressure? Same or different? Higher or lower? The HP-C is a gravity fed 0.3mm, while the Paasche VL uses a lot more air for its siphon feed and 0.5mm nozzle. To make the Iwata perform at its peak, both needs to be adjusted. Just as you probably had to experiment a bit to find what mix suited your VL when you started years ago.

I'm not saying that you should have kept the Iwata. If you are satisfied with the VL, no reason to change. But your problems with the Iwata sounds more user than hardware related.

Every new airbrush is a new experience. Even when keeping in the same brand. Sometimes even with same brand and model.

My VL has a 0.28mm tip/needle combo. It is an old brush and I have purchased all the tips/needles years ago. I still have all 3 sets, but use the 0.28 one most of the time and, occasionally, the largest set for big projects like the motorcycle.

I completely agree that is is all about the user. As I have mentioned, my VL and I have been working together for 15+ years. That brush and I get along VERY well. My H and I get along just as well when I need a single action brush. The Talon and I are still dating. I am getting use to her more and more. I discovered she needs a thinner solution as, it sounds like, the Iwata would have liked. With the new fine tip and needle and thinning at about 40%, I am finding I can get the Talon down to about 1mm now. I am growing to really like the ease of a gravity feed brush and I am committed to really learning the Talon as well as I know the VL. The Talon has far less waste than the VL as would be expected.

I tend to spray 1/48 scale stuff at between 5-15 psi with 8-10 psi being the most commonly used pressures.

Dale

Edited December 27, 2012 by Dale Neid

[RichardL]

Well, I tried a few airbrushes over the years. Started out with the Badger 150. Yep, had the Paasche Talon also but it didn't feel very balanced due to its huge paint cup:

Tried the Badger 105 Patriot and the Badger Sotar - both didn't work out. Finally settled down on Iwata Revolution BR & CR and no longer feel the need to try anything else:

[scapilot]

I've experimented a lot this year with air brush selection. Started with the badger 105 and found that it seemed to have too much output for my likings. Went to the badger 100-1 and really liked that one. Made the mistake of thinking that a single action brush might be cool for detailing and got the badger 200. Mistake. Finally figured I'd take the plunge on the Grex TG2 and I think I've finally found the one. Me and the brush just click. Love the pistol style grip and way more control and comfort over open style air brushes to me.

[denstore]

My VL has a 0.28mm tip/needle combo. It is an old brush and I have purchased all the tips/needles years ago. I still have all 3 sets, but use the 0.28 one most of the time and, occasionally, the largest set for big projects like the motorcycle.

I completely agree that is is all about the user. As I have mentioned, my VL and I have been working together for 15+ years. That brush and I get along VERY well. My H and I get along just as well when I need a single action brush. The Talon and I are still dating. I am getting use to her more and more. I discovered she needs a thinner solution as, it sounds like, the Iwata would have liked. With the new fine tip and needle and thinning at about 40%, I am finding I can get the Talon down to about 1mm now. I am growing to really like the ease of a gravity feed brush and I am committed to really learning the Talon as well as I know the VL. The Talon has far less waste than the VL as would be expected.

I tend to spray 1/48 scale stuff at between 5-15 psi with 8-10 psi being the most commonly used pressures.

Dale

First, I need to say that english isn't my first language. I have been told that things I intend to be informative, sometimes might be read as critical or masterful(?), but it isn't my intention.

I didn't even know that there was a 0.28mm nozzle for the VL. The #1 for the VL is 0.55mm. But even if you use a 0.28mm, your mix might not transfer well to the Iwata.

And it feels like you have been expecting a bit too much and too soon from the Iwata. If you already are using a fine needle nozzle combo as 0.28mm, what did you expect from a larger (0.3mm) nozzle airbrush? Two things control fine line ability, the nozzle size and needle angle. If you already have an airbrush with the right characteristics for fine detail, there's no magic that will make another airbrush with larger size nozzle perform better. It might reach the fine lines easier, because of an easier to control trigger or from a better air valve. The Iwatas are usually very good when it comes to this, and as I have said a few times before, the real advantage of the "japanese general purpose airbrush" (all the HP-clones, not only Iwata), is their ability of working with low pressure and still atomize paint in an even and smooth way. It gives versatility, and is the prime reason why the Iwata Eclipse and Revolutions are as popular among modelers as they are. It's a nice, proven design, and it works. Not that others don't, but that's another discussion.

If you have tuned your VL, you already have those capabilities in your airbrush. Combined with the fact that you are used to your VL, and the Iwata is unfamiliar, and that the paint mixture might not be right, I'm not at all surprised that you didn't get the results you where looking for. Add to it that most of the Iwatas are a bit rough the first weeks of use, and the results are given.

What I'm going to say now isn't about you, but about users in general. I used to have this discussion over and over with my clients when I had my airbrush (web)store. What do surprise me over and over is that people expect their new airbrushes to perform like magic wands. It's a tool, not a magical artifact. It's whole purpose is to atomize paint, and it will do that. Some do it better than others. Some are having a tighter spray cone. Some are better at making shades, fades and colour transitions. The more expensive ones are usually better at several things. Rarely at everything. Never the best at everything. And as with any tool, you need to learn its capabilities. Few people would expect a single (hairy) brush to work for for everything and every style. And nobody would think that buying Windsor & Newton would instantly transform you into Michelangelo.

The airbrush is so much more than just a nozzle and needle. The trigger, air valve, feed and action style makes it perform in different ways. As do things like overall length and cup size. Brand is very far down the list on how an airbrush performs. But still people believe that if they buy a certain brand, they are insured against any problems, hardware or software. And believe me, 95% of the problems comes from the users doing things that could be prevented by reading the manual, and realizing that it is a precision tool, and that it needs to be treated as such. On another forum, there was a gentleman who stated that Iwata Eclipse was the worst airbrush he had owned, since he had to replace the nozzle three times in as many months. At first I thought he was either joking or extremely unlucky, since I haven't had to replace the nozzle of my Eclipse even once in the 15 years I've owned it. But after running an airbrush shop for a couple of years, you realize that there are a group of people that believe that expensive tools are supposed to stand up to abuse. It's just not so. Knowledge about the tool and its construction, and general good care and cleanliness keeps most problems at bay. They are not constructed for harsh conditions or long periods without maintenance.

Over the years I have tried almost every brand and style of airbrush I have gotten my hands on. I guess it exceeds 100 different airbrushes. It has been a lot of fun. But it wasn't only a hobby. I had customers, and tried to learn as much as I could to help them. My overall experience is that there are no brands that standing out as much better than the rest. The ones with higher quality usually cost more, so it follows the saying that you get what you pay for. Also, quality is hard to define. Quality can be finish and tolerances. It can also be in construction and design. Or as with russian tanks, quantity (cost). But there is some kind of sweet spot. Most modelers are best serviced by a gravity fed double action airbrush of a known brand, with a 0.3-0.5mm nozzle. If it's a Badger, H&S, Iwata or Paasche depends more on things like how it feels in your hands or local availability, ease of maintenance or, of course, the size of your wallet.

And, there are no airbrushes that are completely wrong for modelers. There´s been a lot of debating of using high end airbrushes like the Microns, as well as debates on the very cheap Chinese clones. Or the single action verses double action debate.

Less discussion has been seen about using the larger airbrushes and spray guns. Probably because among modelers there's less interest in covering large surfaces. But in the end it is all a matter of taste.

Edited December 28, 2012 by denstore

[matilda]

i abuse iwata revolution BR now for a 6 years, and it still work like first day.

cleaning.... well, after i finish a model, but it happen to do 2 or 3 model in a same time , so...

i did try only once a EVOLUTION of a friend of mine, and he try mine and wee agreed that both are good tool.

still, he shed to will not be problem for him to buy one and start work with it, and i can buy only an other iwata.

like some one shed all ready, its a kalasnikov of brushes...

stevan

[Kei Lau]

Well, I tried a few airbrushes over the years. Started out with the Badger 150. Yep, had the Paasche Talon also but it didn't feel very balanced due to its huge paint cup:

Tried the Badger 105 Patriot and the Badger Sotar - both didn't work out. Finally settled down on Iwata Revolution BR & CR and no longer feel the need to try anything else:

What happened to the Iwata HP-BP(?) that was next to the Talon in the picture?

I settled down on the Iwata Eclipse HP-CS. I like its self centered nozzle better than the tiny ones on the Revolution series. The Badger Krome is also a good alternative, but the 105 Patriot did not work out for me either.

The choice of airbrush is personal. If possible, find one to try the balance on you hand and pull on the trigger to see how it feels before buying.

[RichardL]

What happened to the Iwata HP-BP(?) that was next to the Talon in the picture?

The Iwata HP-B P was a fine airbrush, but I can't remember why I got rid of it. Perhaps it didn't feel right in my hand or more of a hassle.

[Don Wheeler]

Well said, Denstore.

Don

[denstore]

Well said, Denstore.

Don

Thanks! It means a lot coming from you!

[fool on the hill]

There is a dual action brush available from Harbor Freight. I'm sure it's terribly uncool, but it does the job,(actuallyit doea a good job), doesn't have maintenance issues, and, at $17.00 it's virtually disposable. It has some less than ideal features and is a pain in the *ss to use left handed (me) but as a starter or budget unit it can't be beat.

[MarcDuhon]

I have an Iwata CS Eclipse.... I love it.... its easy to strip and change color quickly... I also go from acrylics to enamels to lacquers interchangeable with no issuee..... Its a great all around airbrush... lots of control you have aly down alot of paint and then do delicate work...

[Kei Lau]

There is a dual action brush available from Harbor Freight. I'm sure it's terribly uncool, but it does the job,(actuallyit doea a good job), doesn't have maintenance issues, and, at $17.00 it's virtually disposable. It has some less than ideal features and is a pain in the *ss to use left handed (me) but as a starter or budget unit it can't be beat.

You can find a very objective assessment of the Harbor Freight airbrush here.

For skilled airbrush users who need a disposible airbrush, it is a good price. For new comers who want to build up skill in airbrushing, NO!!

[amin]

this was my airbrush 6 years ago,it was very innovative at the time.

http://www.testors.com/product/137119/A4709/_/Deluxe_Resin_Airbrush_Set

[RichardL]

this was my airbrush 6 years ago,it was very innovative at the time.

http://www.testors.com/product/137119/A4709/_/Deluxe_Resin_Airbrush_Set

I used the metal version for a couple of years. It worked fine until the nozzle and the air passage in the body got clogged and had to be submerged in cleaning solution overnight. Still had to disassemble the nozzle since crud got stuck in the little spring. I'm glad I switched to a "standard" airbrush where the long needle can be pulled straight out of the airbrush body for easy cleaning.