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DutyCat

Definitive Evidence of Gridlines on TOS Enterprise

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Given how controversial this subject is among trekkies, I thought this deserved its own little thread.

The pic below was taken during the restoration.

What you see is the original upper saucer paintwork. I think this clearly puts to rest the debate on whether the 11 foot model has grid lines. It unquestionably does.

So Polar Lights and AMT were CORRECT in including these on their kits. The evidence speaks for itself.

Now I don't know at what point these were added. It may have been a season 3 mod for all I know, but clearly they were there. Whether or not this feature, or just hints of it, actually showed up on the screen is another question entirely.

kg_star-trek_tos_1701_studio_model-001.jpg

Edited by DutyCat

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Yup! That's a shot of the saucer during the restoration in 1990. The bridge and B/C decks section will be removed, stripped down to their original medium - which is wood, then re-primed, painted, and detailed. The saucer's top surface will remain untouched and preserved becuase this is the original finish from when the model was crated up after it's last filming.

Great pic Gil. I actually have this pic, as well as a few others in books and referance materials.

Tracy

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I just found even MORE proof. The following link is to a Flickr site run by a guy who acquired several slides of film from Lincoln Enterprises. This was Gene's company that was selling collectibles during the 1970s and the clear slides were pieces of 16mm film stock. This person scanned ones he acquired and cleaned them up a little. This I would say is hands down THE BEST image I have ever found of the 11 foot E's upper saucer during episode production:

filming Star Trek - The U.S.S. Enterprise and sister starship "Constellation"

You can see the rust ring, a few of the pencil lines. It is THERE BABY!!!

There are some other images from another Flikr user that are also Lincoln Enterprises slides (from "birdofthegalaxy" I believe his name is). They can't be copied, but they show the evolution of Enterprise weathering rather nicely as it seems the model had some weathering added around the time "Space Seed" was filmed as there are a few blue screen shots of the E with the Botany Bay studio model.

Edited by Jay Chladek

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Ok, I see grid lines. The next question is, when were they added? It is conceivable that they were added when the Smithsonian put the Enterprise on display the first time (they did spruce it up a bit), but I think its more likely they were a part of the improvements made in April, 1966. I am certain that they were not on the Enterprise for either the first or second pilot. As I posted on the other thread, these pictures are as clear as you could ask for, and the grid isn't there:

USSEnterprisemodel2ndpilot01.jpg

USSEnterprisemodel2ndpilot02.jpg

So I would say that if you are trying to build the Enterprise from either of the pilots, fill in the gridwork. And if you REALLY want to do an accurate series version of the Enterprise, fill in the gridwork and pencil it on with the finest mechanical pencil you can buy. But there was lots of footage of the pilot version of the Enterprise incorperated into the series. In any episode, you might see the pilot Enterprise moving past a planet, and in another scene, you see the improved series version. Sometimes the Enterprise had no grid, and the other times you just couldn't see it.

Edited by Rocky

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These images you've got linked are still pretty dang low resolution. Want to look at some high res versions of a few of the same, check out these:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/

They are copyright blocked, so they can't be copied. But if you right click, you can view them in very large and/or original scanned sizes. This one in particular shows some of the streaking that the effects photography caught during the tight bridge pull in from "The Cage".

http://www.flickr.com/photos/birdofthegalaxy/3750646617/in/photostream/

Now I do concede that there likely wasn't necessarily an attempt to pencil on a grid for "The Cage" or "Where No Man". But it does look like there might have been an attempt to give the model a little surface weathering at least on the saucer top to make it more visually interesting since the 11 footer was used only for that tight pull in shot in "The Cage". Otherwise, it was the three foot model used for that episode. It does indeed look as though the 11 footer stayed pretty clean in "Where No Man" except for the upper saucer. It looks like from many of the blue screen shots I am seeing in this photostream that the production version of the ship had more weather streaking on it by the episode "Space Seed". So in conclusion, the upper saucer grid was on the ship at least in Season 2 and perhaps as early as mid season one with some streaking before that.

As for how best to represent it, that comes down to what each individual modeler decides. Some will go grid, some won't. Nothing wrong with either choice though.

Edited by Jay Chladek

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If they were stripping paint, perhaps you're seeing the materials underneath and markings used to help for alignment during assembly of the prop.

Fact of the matter is that the model itself isn't even the best resource. What you see on screen is. This is even true of the controversial colors on the Ent-D for TNG. The basic punchline is this: They used specific lights and they used specific paints, and outside of those very specific lighting and post-processing conditions, the models/props would look totally off. If you took an exact reference from the ENT-D model to get the 100% exact color, it would still be wrong unless you shot photos of it in the exact lighting conditions and light colors as the production crew. THe real reference is what shows up on the screen. The final product. This remains true of all Star Trek series.

On screen you cannot see any lines or panels. End of debate.

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No sir, not the end of the debate, the fact is they are there. The Smithsonian, as it is WELL documented, did NOT do any restoration of the top of the saucer. Now I agree, they do not show up on tv, at least on non high def ones, and probably not at all, especially to to the lower quality photography back then, but they ARE there, so one can model her any way one wishes.

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On screen you cannot see any lines or panels. End of debate.

On screen you also didn't see one whole side of the ship so does that mean since you didn't see it it wasn't there? :woot.gif:

Bill

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It's fun seeing new people join in this "debate" decades after the facts have been all ready known.

Controversial colors of the Ent-D? There has NEVER been a controvercy. They are well know and documented. Andy Probert has them listed on his website. The whole purpose of them being selected was to make the ship look gray on screen.

The penciled in Grid lines... No, they have not always been there - Only on the production version of the 11ft model. Numerous other things were modified as well, such as lighting, and hull markings. You can't go by what's on screen because they used stock footage of all three versions of the ship by season 3. You can even see all three versions in a single episode! This is one of the reasons I love the remastered Trek so much. More continuity that fixes a cheep budget from a production team's 60's TV show that had no faith whatsoever it would be anything more than a "here today gone tomorrow" gig.

As a modeler, your best resource is "always" the actual physicle model. What's seen on TV is an illusion. All my Trek models are reproductions of a studio model - They are the only thing that is truly "REAL" in all of this.

Tracy

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The Ent-D colors combined with the lighting the studio used means that using the physical colors of the model will yield a replica with colors wildly off from the actraul screen.

That was the controvery. Taking actual color samples are meaningless unless you look at the final post-processed result.

Same for the TOS.

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That makes no sense whatsoever. The purpose of the actual hull colors is to give the results for what is seen on screen. That is why I paint my builds like the studio model. If you are into photography, using lighting, f stop and shutter speed can recreate what you see on screen.

Case and point... My ERTL Enterprise D painted in studio model colors with different sources of light.

http://s676.photobucket.com/user/Tracy_Mann/media/Star%20Trek/starship1.jpg.html?sort=6&o=36

Tracy

Edited by Vidar 710

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Now that brings up a very interesting side topic. What you see on screen, either big screen or television. is that a representation of filmed events or is it what you are to suppose to see if you were standing there? Colors seen in photographs can wildly vary from what is seen in person. That is why photographs of aircraft aren't dependable to make accurate color representations of the actual objects. BUT a FILMED model is different in that there is no actual subject matter, only the model. So are you building a model of the model or are you building a model of the film object OR are you building a model of a ship that doesn't exist in real life? I'd say either way you go is going to be fine.

I will say though that the ONLY constant in the Star Trek universe as far as the color of the ships is the color of the actual models. The color on screen can vary 100's if not 1000's of different ways depending on the television and/or big screen it's being seen on. So if you want to hit the target that's not moving, go with the model colors. If you want to paint what YOU see then use YOUR television and go by that. Otherwise, paint it pink and call it a day.

Bill

Edited by niart17

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So if the 11 foot model was painted pink, and what we see on tv is the product of special filters and processing effects, what color would you paint your model? I say what we see on tv rules. But of course, you can paint YOUR Enterprise pink.

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On screen you also didn't see one whole side of the ship so does that mean since you didn't see it it wasn't there? :woot.gif:/>

Bill

Actually, that whole side of the 11 foot model was vastly different than the side that was filmed. It lacked most of the detail features and markings and had power cables running all over it. So all of you 11 foot model purists, who feel the need to match the actual model, you have a lot of modifications to do to the Polar Lights kit to get it just right...

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So if the 11 foot model was painted pink, and what we see on tv is the product of special filters and processing effects, what color would you paint your model? I say what we see on tv rules. But of course, you can paint YOUR Enterprise pink.

Ok (playing devils advocate so don't get upset) just to throw this out there, on MY t.v. when I was growing up we had a couple of bad tubes so the Enterprise, as I recall, was a greenish yellow unless it was on the right side of the screen at which point it took on more of a blueish tint. So I should paint my model a pukey yellow green to be more screen accurate? See, that goes both ways.

Besides, the actual model wasn't painted pink.

But anyway, my point wasn't to say one way was right and the other was wrong. I am merely saying that the color of the ship on screen varied widely based on the screen it was seen on (like our crappy TV). The ONLY constant was the color that the actual model was painted. That's all I meant.

Bill

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Well, I will disagree with my friend Tracy here and say that for me at least, one object of modeling is to recreate an authentic miniature version of a real, or fictional vehicle. Now, for a real aircraft, you are going to want the actual colors painted on that aircraft, lightened up a bit for scale effect. For a fictional vessel, like the beloved Enterprise, you want to represent the vessel as it is presented on screen to the audience. So, it is a model representing a "actual" fictional vessel, not a model of a model that is painted dark so that when it gets in front of the studio lighting, it appears a lighter shade.

So to summarize, if you want a model of a model, go for the original studio paint job. If you want a model representing the Enterprise on your screen, you need to lighten things up a bit. It comes down to personal preferences, really, and no one can really gig you either way.

I do agree with what Tracy says about the remastered Trek....the CGI makes the ship consistent throughout all three years...no mixing of models with different physical features.

Edited by DutyCat

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I do agree with what Tracy says about the remastered Trek....the CGI makes the ship consistent throughout all three years...no mixing of models with different physical features.

Not so. If you watch Where No Man Has Gone Before, a.k.a. "The Second Pilot", they faithfully recreated the Enterprise as it originally appeared in that episode. The bridge is taller, the dish is bigger, and the warp nacelles have red domes with spikes. But it doesn't change within the same episode, which was a goofy thing to see in the original version.

I'll have to go back and see what they did for Mirror, Mirror.

Edited by Rocky

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...to pencil on a grid...

As for how best to represent it, that comes down to what each individual modeler decides. Some will go grid, some won't. Nothing wrong with either choice though.

I've gone too far now, but if I was starting this kit, I'd fill in the grid lines with a dark putty as a preshade, and then paint over that. The grid lines would show through the paint, like the fine pencil lines looked, without the overdone recessed grid. On the other hand, if I was trying to make the ship look like the CGI Enterprise, I wouldn't fill in the grid at all.

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Actually, that whole side of the 11 foot model was vastly different than the side that was filmed. It lacked most of the detail features and markings and had power cables running all over it. So all of you 11 foot model purists, who feel the need to match the actual model, you have a lot of modifications to do to the Polar Lights kit to get it just right...

I just got an idea for a diorama: Build a model of the 11 foot model, and a scale camera, light stands, film crew and Gene Roddenberry figure!

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Not so. If you watch Where No Man Has Gone Before, a.k.a. "The Second Pilot", they faithfully recreated the Enterprise as it originally appeared in that episode. The bridge is taller, the dish is bigger, and the warp nacelles have red domes with spikes. But it doesn't change within the same episode, which was a goofy thing to see in the original version.

I'll have to go back and see what they did for Mirror, Mirror.

Well, that is because in the timeline, that is how the ship supposedly appeared at that time. Same with The Menagerie. You were seeing events from 11 years prior. Slightly different ship design, slightly different bridge, slightly different uniforms and personal grooming (Spock's eyebrows). We all know that the show's producers were still refining the look of the show and the concept, but the convenient assumption we can make is, like any naval vessel, the Enterprise received in service modifications during minor refits. I think what Tracy is referring to is once the show hit its stride, the ship design largely settled down, but you continued to see old stock ship footage surface hear and there. The remastered remedies that.

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Very late to the dance on this one, but just as a side not--Flickr has THE WORST copyright protection ever. Just letting you all know in case you had even a passing thought of posting any copyrighted material there. You would be ridiculously wrong thinking there was a scintilla of security there.

I have two of these to build, so the first will be OOB as far as the grid goes. The second, we'll see...

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If the sun goes nova, I'm going to sit at threads like this and type, "End of Discussion" just as my hair catches fire, and it really WILL be the end of the discussion. :D This debate goes back decades - the panel line debate, that is. I've seen the saucer gridlines on the version of the series I have, and I don't think it's HD. I think it was a final season episode. So the grid was there. End of Discussion. :lol:

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