WHAT COLOR WERE THESE FOUR MUSTANGS?

[seawinder]

FWIW, at least on my monitor, your digital chip for Dark Earth doesn't look much like any Dark Earth I've ever seen elsewhere.

[xmh53wrench]

David your models are gorgeous....but if this is what it takes to make gorgeous models, I will remain mediocre at best. Kudos to you for all that effort. I would be surprised if that kind of effort is put into hundred thousand dollar auto restorations. Hell I am miffed that 5 bucks for a jar of paint with the word master has to be messed with....my hat is off to your diligence.

Edited December 19, 2012 by xmh53wrench

[LDSModeller]

The Lend Lease Mustangs will be painted 41 Dark OD / DuPont 71-009 Dark Earth / DuPont 71-021 Light Gray.

Not sure how you managed to get light grey for DuPont 71-021?

DuPont 71-021 is actually a Blueish/Greenish color with a slight grey

tint to it, hence it's name Sky Type S Grey

This is a colour chip and it's not a "grey" colour (even taking into consideration

of monitor difference)

Regards

Alan

Edited December 19, 2012 by LDSModeller

[PFlint]

Thank You for your kind reply , Alan

as for DuPont 71-021......its green,not gray

(a very pale green that vintage photography often missed)

it seems that someone was too lazy to read the links I gave and failed to do follow-up research into the two other colors used.

Edited December 19, 2012 by PFlint

[David Rapasi]

Not sure how you managed to get light grey for DuPont 71-021?

DuPont 71-021 is actually a Blueish/Greenish color with a slight grey

tint to it, hence it's name Sky Type S Grey

This is a colour chip and it's not a "grey" colour (even taking into consideration

of monitor difference)

Regards

Alan

Thanks Alan

Since I lost almost all of my reference materials a few years ago I have become dependent on Don Color and ARC for my military colors.

From the responses to this article I went with the colors specified for the DuPont colors for the P-40.

Don Color P-40 DuPont colors show the use of 71-021 Light Gray for the Bottom Color.

The color of the Mustang and P-40 in the photos from this web site look the same as the photo I used, a very light color that is said to have lost its color hue due to copying.

Further research into this subject just produced more confusion with everyone having a different opinion and no color chips.

I will remix the color for my Mustangs with a tint of green to match the Sky - Type S color chip you provided.

Dave

[mawz]

You're trying to match pigmented model paint to RGB color "chips"? Good luck with that. Color doesn't work that way. Pigment is additive color, monitors are subtractive color. Apples vs. railroad tracks.

Not to mention those chips include colours that are not actual standard RAF, MAP or Dupont colours, as has previously been mentioned. Those chips are completely useless even for something like doing a repaint of a simulator aircraft skin.

RGB colour chips are complete bollocks unless you also know the colour space they're in and what they were matched to. It is possible to produce usable RGB colour chips (but not to do paint matches from them), but these chips certainly are no such thing given that lack of colour space info (and the fact that browsers normally don't display in a standard colour space. Firefox and Chrome can be set to respect ICC profiles though). But that also requires a properly profiled display, which most don't have.

Note that to get accurate colour printouts of your chips you also need a profile for your printer (not model, actual printer as this varies by device, particularly with consumer printers), ink and paper as well as the above mentioned profile and colour space info required for accurate monitor display. There's no benefit in matching to an RGB chip printed out on an unprofiled printer with generic paper, you can't expect to have something more than vaguely similar to what the individual who made the chips saw.

The same goes for scanning. You need a accurate ICC profile for your scanner to reliably match colour on your monitor (in addition to the monitor profile and colour space info for the colour chip)

Getting accurate colour in a repeatable fashion on your monitor and prints is a complex issue which requires a fair bit of investment and study. Serious photographers struggle with this constantly.

Edited December 21, 2012 by mawz

[LDSModeller]

Hi Dave

Glad to be able to help.

One thing that has been mentioned previous, about chips is gaining an exact colour profile.

However not all is lost, as the RNZAF actually received a number of Cutiss P40E's

in 1942, built to RAF spec and wait for, it painted in Dupont Colours with appropiate

paper work stating what paints were used.

This attached photo is a restored P40E at MOTAT in DuPont colours.

Obviously there will some who will state, that a 'Restoration" is not the same as the original and that is true.

However the paints have been matched as close to the original, going by Curtiss documents.

But it will give you some idea of what the original colour looked like.

In the photo of said P40E - note the colour of the "Sky" (being matched to DuPont 71-021).

What is interesting about this photo is it gives you a variety of

colourings with the light.

Now this next photo is under the shadow, note the colour- looks more grey does it not?

Hope that helps you some?

Regards

Alan

[seawinder]

Cool pictures, Alan. Have you got any that show more of the Dark Earth? I keep looking at Dave's digital chip from Don Color and thinking it just doesn't look close at all.

[LDSModeller]

Cool pictures, Alan. Have you got any that show more of the Dark Earth? I keep looking at Dave's digital chip from Don Color and thinking it just doesn't look close at all.

I looked through the photos I took, the same day as the

Sky colour, but the lighting made it appear darker than it

was.

Here are a couple I took some time ago, Close up of the Dark Earth

(some has faded as you can see)

One that might interest you a real close up of the Dark Green

Hope that helps

Regards

Alan

[bigjugs]

Alan:

You state: "This attached photo is a restored P40E at MOTAT in DuPont colours.

Obviously there will some who will state, that a 'Restoration" is not the same as the original and that is true.

However the paints have been matched as close to the original, going by Curtiss documents.

But it will give you some idea of what the original colour looked like.

In the photo of said P40E - note the colour of the "Sky" (being matched to DuPont 71-021)."

---------------------

As far as i know, no Curtiss documents have been shown to exist. Although one person has claimed to have obtained some from a dumpster as the old Curtiss factory was being torn down. I'd love to see the document.

As for the aircraft, a restoration which the restorers painted in colours they think match the du Pont colours, assuming du Pont paints were used. But this sounds more like modeling. Is that not what we all do?

[LDSModeller]

Alan:

You state: "This attached photo is a restored P40E at MOTAT in DuPont colours.

Obviously there will some who will state, that a 'Restoration" is not the same as the original and that is true.

However the paints have been matched as close to the original, going by Curtiss documents.

But it will give you some idea of what the original colour looked like.

In the photo of said P40E - note the colour of the "Sky" (being matched to DuPont 71-021)."

---------------------

As far as i know, no Curtiss documents have been shown to exist. Although one person has claimed to have obtained some from a dumpster as the old Curtiss factory was being torn down. I'd love to see the document.

As for the aircraft, a restoration which the restorers painted in colours they think match the du Pont colours, assuming du Pont paints were used. But this sounds more like modeling. Is that not what we all do?

The RNZAF Museum has documents that arrived with the Curtis P 40E's in

1942.

In looking for DuPont paint types, they gave me the numbers of the

DuPont paints used on the aircraft, Dark Earth/ Dark Green etc and included

the DuPont numbers for the Roundel colours also.

The restorers at MOTAT, I have spoken to, do strive to get it right, and I don't

doubt the above Curtiss documents at the Museum would come in handy to do so.

Regards

Alan

[David Rapasi]

Hi Dave

Glad to be able to help.

One thing that has been mentioned previous, about chips is gaining an exact colour profile.

However not all is lost, as the RNZAF actually received a number of Cutiss P40E's

in 1942, built to RAF spec and wait for, it painted in Dupont Colours with appropiate

paper work stating what paints were used.

This attached photo is a restored P40E at MOTAT in DuPont colours.

Obviously there will some who will state, that a 'Restoration" is not the same as the original and that is true.

However the paints have been matched as close to the original, going by Curtiss documents.

But it will give you some idea of what the original colour looked like.

In the photo of said P40E - note the colour of the "Sky" (being matched to DuPont 71-021).

What is interesting about this photo is it gives you a variety of

colourings with the light.

Now this next photo is under the shadow, note the colour- looks more grey does it not?

Hope that helps you some?

Regards

Alan

Alan

If the chips from Don Color are incorrect could you, if possible, post the color chips for DuPont 71-013 Dark Green and DuPont 71-009 Dark Earth, it would be helpful for mixing the paint colors.

Thanks

Dave

Edited December 21, 2012 by David Rapasi

[David Rapasi]

Not to mention those chips include colours that are not actual standard RAF, MAP or Dupont colours, as has previously been mentioned. Those chips are completely useless even for something like doing a repaint of a simulator aircraft skin.

RGB colour chips are complete bollocks unless you also know the colour space they're in and what they were matched to. It is possible to produce usable RGB colour chips (but not to do paint matches from them), but these chips certainly are no such thing given that lack of colour space info (and the fact that browsers normally don't display in a standard colour space. Firefox and Chrome can be set to respect ICC profiles though). But that also requires a properly profiled display, which most don't have.

Note that to get accurate colour printouts of your chips you also need a profile for your printer (not model, actual printer as this varies by device, particularly with consumer printers), ink and paper as well as the above mentioned profile and colour space info required for accurate monitor display. There's no benefit in matching to an RGB chip printed out on an unprofiled printer with generic paper, you can't expect to have something more than vaguely similar to what the individual who made the chips saw.

The same goes for scanning. You need a accurate ICC profile for your scanner to reliably match colour on your monitor (in addition to the monitor profile and colour space info for the colour chip)

Getting accurate colour in a repeatable fashion on your monitor and prints is a complex issue which requires a fair bit of investment and study. Serious photographers struggle with this constantly.

I am not using RGB Numbers to mix paint.

RBG numbers are used only in electronic applications and cannot be used to mix paint.

I use the HSB numbers to get the correct Color Hue, Saturation, and Brightness.

Knowing these numbers I can almost mix the color without using a paint chip.

When I print a paint chip on printer paper I scan it back into Photo Shop and compare the printed chip to the original paint chip for verification.

Normally for every color I have used to paint a model, the match is close enough to get an accurate paint mix for a base color.

When the model is finished, the Hue, Saturation, and Brightness usually change somewhat due to the method I use for weathering. Weathering

The only function the monitor has in all of this is to observe the work I am doing, it has no bearing on the color of the chips, or the color of the paint mix.

Dave

Edited December 21, 2012 by David Rapasi

[PFlint]

http://amair4raf.blogspot.com/search?q=71-013

http://amair4raf.blogspot.com/2009/04/two-dark-earths.html

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-D9r0ERJ4HLM/TlT7eMoSgfI/AAAAAAAAChI/4WON0WYwR08/s320/DuPontTLSColours.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-S0UnL5sjdtc/TlT_b1fwx7I/AAAAAAAAChM/vja02eafYnU/s320/DuPontTLSColours2.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-Iic3UVwACCw/TlUCInKQN3I/AAAAAAAAChQ/OAU2c_qc5yE/s320/MAPvsDuPontComparison.jpg

[David Rapasi]

With all of the information I received, and the results of research online, I now have;

Five colors for 71-013 Dark Green

Eight colors for 71-009 Dark Earth

Six color for 71-021 Sky - Type S

I think I will stay with the colors I originally mixed and the color from Alan for 71-021.

Dave

[Falcon50EX]

For What its worth, David's research into Corsair paint schemes allowed me to mix up a colour that looks a lot better than MM Blue Gray to my eye. For me, it made a difference.

david

Edited December 21, 2012 by Falcon50EX

[dancho]

The original image looks pale to me. I put it in my handy image manipulation program and just boosted the saturation and put some yellow back in it.

A person could do this type of thing all day. I did notice that the guy checking the tire pressure (or whatever he's doing) seems to be dressed in a rather natty cream ensemble--rather than the faded khaki overalls that I originally assumed he was wearing. Something tells me this picture was posed... :whistle:/>

[PFlint]

better quality versions of the images are available at the United States Library Of Congress website http://loc.gov

http://lcweb2.loc.gov/service/pnp/fsac/1a35000/1a35300/1a35322v.jpg

there are 2 other images ,but I can't seem to find them right now

these photographs and many other color photos were taken by Alfred Palmer for the Office of War Information (OWI) in 1942.