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Mosquito Mk IVB


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Left wing are red, right wing are green (seen as dark blue-green when not lit). The white light is on the tip of the aft fuselage. No white lights on wing tips ever (modern strobes excepted).

Edited by Jennings
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Everything points to them being clear, since, quite early on, intruders were fitted with low-intensity infra-red lamps, known as "resin" lamps. These were (until mid-1944) only allowed to be used within a few miles of the U.K. coast, and within the country's boundaries, and were a defence against home-based nightfighters.

Much later in the war, infra-red, known as "Type F," and "Type Z" was used on fighters and bombers over Europe, but pilots were never told, in case the Germans ever caught on (they never did.)

Edgar

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Everything points to them being clear, since, quite early on, intruders were fitted with low-intensity infra-red lamps, known as "resin" lamps. These were (until mid-1944) only allowed to be used within a few miles of the U.K. coast, and within the country's boundaries, and were a defence against home-based nightfighters.

Much later in the war, infra-red, known as "Type F," and "Type Z" was used on fighters and bombers over Europe, but pilots were never told, in case the Germans ever caught on (they never did.)

Edgar

Hi Edgar, I guess one could say that it was an early attempt at an IFF system. What made me think that the aft faceing light were not colored was when I built Tamiya's 1/48th scale Dambuster Lanc., and was instructed to leave the "bulbs clear on the aft wing tip lights. And as I clear the cob webs from my brain I do recall hearing about the infra red bulbs. Thanks again Gary

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Serious issue at Britmodeller

My research on this topic pointed to britmodeller.com a couple of times, and Google is flagging it as a malware site.

If you know the webmasters, please contact them as they have some work to do ASAP

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Hi Edgar, I guess one could say that it was an early attempt at an IFF system. What made me think that the aft faceing light were not colored was when I built Tamiya's 1/48th scale Dambuster Lanc., and was instructed to leave the "bulbs clear on the aft wing tip lights. And as I clear the cob webs from my brain I do recall hearing about the infra red bulbs. Thanks again Gary

The whole infra-red system remained a complete mystery, until the time of the 1st. Gulf War, when Peter Cooke read about "resin lamps" in the Mosquito manual, and asked what they were. As I said, pilots had no real idea, and those who contacted him said that they were formation lights, and "b---y useless," because they were so dim. He then got a letter from a man who had worked in the business since, and during, the war, who told him what they were really for.

Nightfighters carried a forward-facing sight, which worked on the infra-red spectrum, and, in his words, "if the aircraft's wingtips lit up like a Christmas tree" when viewed through the sight, the crew knew it was friendly, and left it alone.

Until 1943/4 it was only used over the U.K., to ensure that the Germans never found out about it, but it was eventually extended to include our four-engined bombers, and went into Europe. If you ever see mention of "Village Inn," it was a completely new radar system fitted to the rear turrets of Lancasters, which enabled the tailgunner to lock onto a "bogey" coming up from behind; with the radar he also had an infra-red sight, plus the new gyro gunsight exactly like those fitted in late fighters. To enable him to differentiate between the unseen aircraft, bombers were also fitted with forward-signalling I.R. transmitters (if you see a bomb-aimer's cupola, on a Lancaster or Halifax, with two black circles on it, those are the transmitters,) which showed the Morse "letter of the day."

With this new equipment, the gunners no longer needed tracer, so, if they were allowed to fire, the enemy had no advance warning, and might never know what hit him. Village Inn also triggered a warning on the bombers intercom, so the captain could, if he preferred, just take evasive action, and deny the gunners their chance.

At first the rearward-shining "resin lamps" seem to have been just low-wattage bulbs, hence the large covers on the Mosquito and Lancaster wingtips, but eventually smaller standard bulbs, fitted with an I.R. screen, were used; these took on the shape of narrow tubes, somewhere on the wings' trailing edges, often just inboard of the ailerons, so the "extra" covers could be deleted on late-war airframes, which is why Mosquitos don't have them in 1944/5. Incidentally the lights were supplied to the Black Widow squadrons, operating in Europe, so, if you see one with extra rear lights on the wings, that's what they're likely to be.

There are literally dozens of files on this subject, in our National Archives, and I've barely scratched the surface so far.

Edgar

Edited by Edgar
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there is no problem at britmodeler.

the warnings are all false.

(I was just there)

you can try switching to Mozilla ,Internet Explorer,Safari or Opera and get past the bogus error messages.

That you were just there is orthogonal to the problem Google reports.

Google still reports a problem now. Try https://www.google.com/search?q=infrared+light+wwii+identificationMy link

If the warning is, in fact, bogus, the webmasters at britmodeller.com still have work to do. That too is described in the Google page the above query will describe.

In any event, the exchange is off topic and obviously pointless.

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The whole infra-red system remained a complete mystery, until the time of the 1st. Gulf War, when Peter Cooke read about "resin lamps" in the Mosquito manual, and asked what they were. As I said, pilots had no real idea, and those who contacted him said that they were formation lights, and "b---y useless," because they were so dim. He then got a letter from a man who had worked in the business since, and during, the war, who told him what they were really for.

Nightfighters carried a forward-facing sight, which worked on the infra-red spectrum, and, in his words, "if the aircraft's wingtips lit up like a Christmas tree" when viewed through the sight, the crew knew it was friendly, and left it alone.

Is this a 2nd sight or the only sight used on, say an NF Mosquito?

At first the rearward-shining "resin lamps" seem to have been just low-wattage bulbs, hence the large covers on the Mosquito and Lancaster wingtips, but eventually smaller standard bulbs, fitted with an I.R. screen, were used; these took on the shape of narrow tubes, somewhere on the wings' trailing edges, often just inboard of the ailerons, so the "extra" covers could be deleted on late-war airframes, which is why Mosquitos don't have them in 1944/5. Incidentally the lights were supplied to the Black Widow squadrons, operating in Europe, so, if you see one with extra rear lights on the wings, that's what they're likely to be.

Would you post some URLS or photos showing these? I'm getting all the bits to do EW*R, a Mosquito NF II, 307 Squadron, and this would be cool to show...

There are literally dozens of files on this subject, in our National Archives, and I've barely scratched the surface so far.

This is great stuff, thanks!

Can we anticipate more from you on this in the future?

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Is this a 2nd sight or the only sight used on, say an NF Mosquito?

It was a second item, fitted alongside the gunsight; after each sortie, it was unbolted, and removed, being kept in a locked cupboard, so there would be little chance of ever seeing one in an aircraft on the ground. So far, I've not found a single photo, or illustration, of one.

Would you post some URLS or photos showing these? I'm getting all the bits to do EW*R, a Mosquito NF II, 307 Squadron, and this would be cool to show...

There isn't much to see on the later lights:-

PICT0050.jpg

Can we anticipate more from you on this in the future?

It all depends on what turns up in a file, and I can never be sure until I open it. I'm also not concentrating on a particular subject, so I hop around from Spitfires to Hurricanes, camouflage to production, etc.

As an example, I recently found an order, to SEAC Command, not to fly Spitfire VIIIs & XIVs on bombing runs, since some had faulty wing/fuselage attachment points, which needed replacement. As this was in August 1945, were they repaired, and does it have a bearing on the Spitfires they're looking for in Burma? As so often, the file comes to a halt before the answer appears, but it's a further reason why one should never discount any possibility, while researching.

Edgar

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OK, nothing to show in the cockpit, Based on your "late-war airframes", the NF II wouldn't have had the tube light you show above.

I guess that I can assume something that looks like a clear rearward-facing wingtip light can be assumed to be this.

Thanks for the info, and good hunting in the archives! :salute:

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I wonder why the Germans never discovered the infra red sites on crashed Lancs.?

They might have done (though none were fitted before at least April 1944,) but there's a world of difference between finding something, and working out exactly what it was for. The Germans were working on their own infra-red system, known as the "Kiel Apparatus," but it was designed more for spotting exhausts, and was used in conjunction with A.I., so there was every chance they would consider this to be similar.

Questioning the pilots would have disclosed that the lights were called resin lamps, which were a pre-war dim light naval system that didn't work, which would have sent them down a cul-de-sac. The lights consisted of ordinary bulbe behind I.R. filters, so the Germans would have needed to test the glasses specifically for I.R. sensitivity.

Edgar

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They might have done (though none were fitted before at least April 1944,) but there's a world of difference between finding something, and working out exactly what it was for. The Germans were working on their own infra-red system, known as the "Kiel Apparatus," but it was designed more for spotting exhausts, and was used in conjunction with A.I., so there was every chance they would consider this to be similar.

Questioning the pilots would have disclosed that the lights were called resin lamps, which were a pre-war dim light naval system that didn't work, which would have sent them down a cul-de-sac. The lights consisted of ordinary bulbe behind I.R. filters, so the Germans would have needed to test the glasses specifically for I.R. sensitivity.

Edgar

Hi Edgar, Thanks for your very informative answers. Have a great New Year Gary

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