Navy officer who shot down Air Force jet

[31Tiger]

Not only that but he is an officer, an officer entrusted with others lives.

But these officer creatures, we gave them power and responsibility to make decisions based on the evidence at hand, that may well contradict what they were told previously.

One of the stories used a TBS is a dutch squad of UN paras in africa on peacekeeping duty were surrounded by hostiles who ordered they give up their weapons and evactuate their hut. The officer called his CO and asked what to do. the CO said to surrender their weapons. at which point, they did and the entire squad was hacked to death by machetes. That might have been a good time to exercise some judgement. One of those "something must be lost in translation, if he were my shoes he wouldn't give this order..." moments.

Everyday thousands of officers make intelligent decisions (so im told) that result in success, and not all of them are because they rigidly adhere to doctrine or orders.

Ahum, they where Belgian Para- commandos, and its "a bit" more complicated then there CO said they should surrender there weapons!! In fact it so complicated it takes a full lecture day at our military academy just to unravel the events that led to this drama; The fact that your TBS course misidentifies them as Dutch tells me that those instructers have NO idea what really happened there!

It is easy to talk crap about officers, i did the same as an NCO , but after 20 years of service i got the chance to become an officer and i can guarantee you its never easy to "please" everyone and sometimes you have to be harsh. Your decisisons are sometimes not understood because your subordinates don't see the full picture or have enough knowledge to understand it all.

Back on topic: UNBELIEVABLE

[galileo1]

Does that F-14 still survive? If so, maybe the Navy could give it to the Air Force so they can convert it to an aerial target (at the Navys expense) or put it on the ranges @ Eglin.

The caption on the pic states that the jet crashed in 1993 killing the pilot and RIO.

Rob

[TaiidanTomcat]

Ahum, they where Belgian Para- commandos, and its "a bit" more complicated then there CO said they should surrender there weapons!! In fact it so complicated it takes a full lecture day at our military academy just to unravel the events that led to this drama; The fact that your TBS course misidentifies them as Dutch tells me that those instructers have NO idea what really happened there!

I misidentified them as Dutch. ME juxtaposing them with another incident involving Dutch troops that Vince already corrected me on.

Thanks

See post #66

Edited January 10, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[31Tiger]

I misidentified them as Dutch. ME juxtaposing them with another incident involving Dutch troops that Vince already corrected me on.

Thanks

See post #66

Hey TT no problem! It was and still is a very sensitive subject here in my part of the world (Same thing for the Dutch and the Sebrenica story)

[Heyjoe]

Its the military. If you think that an incident that happened in your past won't affect your current career/promotion in a highly competitive environment, you are being nieve. Typically an incident that results in the loss of an expensive warplane through at the very least negligence, would mean no more promotions until they can show you the door, even if you avoid severe punishment.

One of the other tough parts about being an officer is "if it happened, and you were there, its your fault" It doesn't matter that the a civilian was at the helm when you hit a japanese fishing boat with your sub. It doesn't matter that you couldn't pick the private who lost his rifle out of a lineup. It doesn't matter that the fuel control clogged up and an F-18 crashed into a house, you are the maintenance officer. For CO's of fighter squadron losing an aircraft in training can be enough to end a career.

Interestingly, the RF-4 aircrew was totally dejected when drying out in sickbay when Captain of Sara (legendary Dave Frost) showed up with souvenirs (ballcaps, etc) and in attempt to cheer them up, asked if they wanted to meet the pilot who shot them down...turns out they had no clue why their aircraft departed controlled flight and they had no choice but eject when it dodn't respond to conrol inputs. In the Air Force at the time, if you lost an aircraft and (plausible) reason was unknown, you were done. So, I totally agree to above statement in that regard.

Other things that haven't surfaced in this thread:

- Dorsey was removed from flight status after FNAEB deliberations, but allowed to wear his wings. His career in active Navy was pretty muh over so he was stashed at Wing and ran the enlisted manning coordination for East Coast Tomcat squadrons until the deliberations were concluded and he resigned from active service. He DID go into the reserves and that is where he was promoted (many "sins" or foibles that would stop an active career can sometimes be overlooked in the reserves. He then went to law school and became a lawyer.....

- Dorsey defended his actions by saying the "Red and Free" call by controller was authoriztion to fire. He DID seek clarification from his RIO whose classic response was "Yeah, shoot!" That was pretty much last chance to avoid the tragic misunderstanding. RIO had no clue that pilot meant to fire and what he meant was to achieve a firing solution and simulate a shot. RIO does have an indication that Master Arm has been engaged, but likely wasn't expecting his pilot to shoot and wasn't looking down on TID to see that cue. Certainly a case study for lack of crew coordination!!!

- Perhaps ONLY reason that Dorsey wasn't court martialed (his dad being a flag gave him no top cover after that although some say he struggled through some phases of training and even he admitted to being a slow learner) was fact that the critical "Red and Free", which was universally in use in Exercises could be misinterpreted so one of outcomes was to precede such a call with "Exercise, Exercise, Exercise". Tragically, a repetition of "Exercise vs Real World" situation occured aboard USS Saratoga a few years later during a NATO Exercise in the Med when Battle Stations were called away in dead of night to simulate a surface attack. The Flag Staff was driving scenario, but sailors manning the Seasparrow were awakened out of sleep and told to "Arm and Tune". In another classic misunderstanding, 2 Seasparrows were fired at the Turkish TCG Muavenet (DM 357) with sailors believing they were commanded to do so and Staff thinking they wwre in an Exercise using real-world comms to initiate a simulated launch resulting in 5 deaths and 22 injuries.

Note: when Air Force generated FAX denigrating VF-74 and Navy (this was way before InterNet was a twinkle in Al Gore's eye) began making the rounds, a counter FAX popped up reminding them that a USAF Exchange pilot flying with VF-74 (just before they transitioned to Tomcats) downed his flight lead with a Sidewinder during training. In that incident, USAF pilot forgot that Navy routinely carried live missiles when flying off the ship and pulled trigger as he had when training in USAF Phantom Squadron. He realized his mstake immediately and called out a warning. Both aircrew ejected successfully.

[gonzalo]

Interestingly, the RF-4 aircrew was totally dejected when drying out in sickbay when Captain of Sara (legendary Dave Frost) showed up with souvenirs (ballcaps, etc) and in attempt to cheer them up, asked if they wanted to meet the pilot who shot them down...turns out they had no clue why their aircraft departed controlled flight and they had no choice but eject when it dodn't respond to conrol inputs. In the Air Force at the time, if you lost an aircraft and (plausible) reason was unknown, you were done. So, I totally agree to above statement in that regard.

Other things that haven't surfaced in this thread:

- Dorsey was removed from flight status after FNAEB deliberations, but allowed to wear his wings. His career in active Navy was pretty muh over so he was stashed at Wing and ran the enlisted manning coordination for East Coast Tomcat squadrons until the deliberations were concluded and he resigned from active service. He DID go into the reserves and that is where he was promoted (many "sins" or foibles that would stop an active career can sometimes be overlooked in the reserves. He then went to law school and became a lawyer.....

- Dorsey defended his actions by saying the "Red and Free" call by controller was authoriztion to fire. He DID seek clarification from his RIO whose classic response was "Yeah, shoot!" That was pretty much last chance to avoid the tragic misunderstanding. RIO had no clue that pilot meant to fire and what he meant was to achieve a firing solution and simulate a shot. RIO does have an indication that Master Arm has been engaged, but likely wasn't expecting his pilot to shoot and wasn't looking down on TID to see that cue. Certainly a case study for lack of crew coordination!!!

- Perhaps ONLY reason that Dorsey wasn't court martialed (his dad being a flag gave him no top cover after that although some say he struggled through some phases of training and even he admitted to being a slow learner) was fact that the critical "Red and Free", which was universally in use in Exercises could be misinterpreted so one of outcomes was to precede such a call with "Exercise, Exercise, Exercise". Tragically, a repetition of "Exercise vs Real World" situation occured aboard USS Saratoga a few years later during a NATO Exercise in the Med when Battle Stations were called away in dead of night to simulate a surface attack. The Flag Staff was driving scenario, but sailors manning the Seasparrow were awakened out of sleep and told to "Arm and Tune". In another classic misunderstanding, 2 Seasparrows were fired at the Turkish TCG Muavenet (DM 357) with sailors believing they were commanded to do so and Staff thinking they wwre in an Exercise using real-world comms to initiate a simulated launch resulting in 5 deaths and 22 injuries.

Note: when Air Force generated FAX denigrating VF-74 and Navy (this was way before InterNet was a twinkle in Al Gore's eye) began making the rounds, a counter FAX popped up reminding them that a USAF Exchange pilot flying with VF-74 (just before they transitioned to Tomcats) downed his flight lead with a Sidewinder during training. In that incident, USAF pilot forgot that Navy routinely carried live missiles when flying off the ship and pulled trigger as he had when training in USAF Phantom Squadron. He realized his mstake immediately and called out a warning. Both aircrew ejected successfully.

There you go even Steven!