daywalker Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 I have a Hasegawa 1/48 F-104C, and want to build it as an "A". What do I need to do to get an "A" from a "C"? Right away I see that the refueling probe is not present on the "A", are there other differences as well? TIA! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sven Harjacek Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Here's what wikipedia says on that matter F-104A: A total of 153 initial production versions were built.The F-104A was in USAF service from 1958 through 1960, then transferred to ANG until 1963 when they were recalled by the USAF Air Defense Command for the 319th and 331st Fighter Interceptor Squadrons. Some were released for export to Jordan, Pakistan, and Taiwan, each of whom used it in combat. In 1967 the 319th F-104As and Bs were re-engined with the J79-GE-19 engines with 17,900 lbf (79.6 kN) of thrust in afterburner; service ceiling with this engine was in excess of 73,000 ft (22,250 m). In 1969, all the F-104A/Bs in ADC service were retired. On 18 May 1958, an F-104A set a world speed record of 1,404.19 mph (2,259.82 km/h) F-104C: Fighter-bomber versions for USAF Tactical Air Command, with improved fire-control radar (AN/ASG-14T-2), centerline and two wing pylons (for a total of five), and ability to carry one Mk 28 or Mk 43 nuclear weapon on the centerline pylon. The F-104C also had in-flight refuelling capability. On 14 December 1959, an F-104C set a world altitude record of 103,395 ft (31,515 m), 77 built. It may help. Cheers,Sven, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daywalker Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thanks Sven, that does help. If I were to leave off the air refueling probe and the fuselage weapons pylons, would that make a reasonable F-104A? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantom Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Not sure, but I think the tail is smaller. Certainly the C tail is shorter then then CF-104 or 104 G/S. The A tail might have been smaller still. Ejection seats might be different as well as the early A was made for (not too successful) downwards ejection. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daywalker Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thank you for the help, I had forgotten about the downward firing ejection seats on the "A". Besides the actual seat (and which one would it be?), would there be any sort of, say, panel lines on the bottom of the fuselage showing the eject-able hatch? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) All F-104s had had a panel on the underside of the nose for the downward ejection seat, even if it was fitted with an upward firing seat. It was sometimes used to remove the seat from the bottom. Also, I believe some early A models were not fitted with the gun, so the port would be plugged. Also, I think the vents on the avionics panel on the right side of the nose were different on early As. Edited January 13, 2013 by Dave Williams Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Some pics here: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/22221b92516f1640.html of F-104As, they had the gun from the looks of things. edit: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/950e50947964e86d_large note the ejection warning triangle indicating downward ejection seat. Jari Edited January 13, 2013 by Finn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daywalker Posted January 13, 2013 Author Share Posted January 13, 2013 Thank you for the clarification Dave, much appreciated. Good call on that panel, I looked at the kit parts and there it was. note the ejection warning triangle indicating downward ejection seat. Jari Good spot Jari! I would not have noticed that one. Thanks for the help! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ya-gabor Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Some pics here: http://images.google.com/hosted/life/22221b92516f1640.html of F-104As, they had the gun from the looks of things. edit: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/950e50947964e86d_large note the ejection warning triangle indicating downward ejection seat. Jari Hi Jari, Some fascinating period photos! Love the early C-2 ejection seat photos. Thanks for finding them! Hi Daywalker, I am sure there are some Starfighter specialist around, but if I remember right you will have to do some work on that C to convert it to A. The tail was very different. And you will need a new ejection seat, I don't remember any aftermarkets doing a downward ejecting version. The headrest is very different from the upward firing C-2 seat. Not sure about this but I think the downward seats were replaced in service, and anyway originally not all A models had the down firing seats, so you will have to have a look at which example / particular a/c you are building and what time in its service life you want to represent. Best regards Gabor Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Pictures of F-104As with and without (see #2 and #4) the gun. http://kevsaviationpics.blogspot.com/2012/04/lockheed-f-104a-starfighter-part-ii.html Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:83d_Fighter-Interceptor_Squadron_-_F-104s_1958.jpg http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wU857.htm I believe there were problems with the gun installation early on and the very first 104As were delivered without it. Once the problem was resolved, it was installed. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve jahn Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 The F-104A and F-104C had the same tail. There was no difference. The two seaters had a longer tail and also the G model. Steve Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daywalker Posted January 14, 2013 Author Share Posted January 14, 2013 Hi Jari, Some fascinating period photos! Love the early C-2 ejection seat photos. Thanks for finding them! Hi Daywalker, I am sure there are some Starfighter specialist around, but if I remember right you will have to do some work on that C to convert it to A. The tail was very different. And you will need a new ejection seat, I don't remember any aftermarkets doing a downward ejecting version. The headrest is very different from the upward firing C-2 seat. Not sure about this but I think the downward seats were replaced in service, and anyway originally not all A models had the down firing seats, so you will have to have a look at which example / particular a/c you are building and what time in its service life you want to represent. Best regards Gabor Pictures of F-104As with and without (see #2 and #4) the gun. http://kevsaviationpics.blogspot.com/2012/04/lockheed-f-104a-starfighter-part-ii.html Also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:83d_Fighter-Interceptor_Squadron_-_F-104s_1958.jpg http://www.916-starfighter.de/Large/Stars/wU857.htm I believe there were problems with the gun installation early on and the very first 104As were delivered without it. Once the problem was resolved, it was installed. The F-104A and F-104C had the same tail. There was no difference. The two seaters had a longer tail and also the G model. Steve Thank you everyone for chiming in! For my build, I think I will go ahead and build my Hasegawa F-104C as an "A", modifying the refueling boom and a few other items accordingly. Should get me close enough to a correct for me. Thanks for those photos Dave, and the link was especially good. Great color shots there! Steve- Thanks for clarifying the tail issue, good to know I can leave it as is. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 The two seaters had a longer tail Not all did - the first F-104B batch (F-104B-1-LO 56-3719/3724) were built with the same tail as the F-104A/C, as well as lacking the ventral fin of the singleseaters. HTH, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve jahn Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Not all did - the first F-104B batch (F-104B-1-LO 56-3719/3724) were built with the same tail as the F-104A/C, as well as lacking the ventral fin of the singleseaters. HTH, Andre Sorry but, Only the very first F-104B Prototype had the short tail,The other appox 25 airplanes had the long tail. Steve Edited January 19, 2013 by Steve jahn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andre Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Sorry but, Only the very first F-104B Prototype had the short tail,The other appox 25 airplanes had the long tail. Steve http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f104_4.html: The initial batch of F-104Bs had the same vertical tail as did the F-104A single seater. However, the B did not have the ventral fin that was fitted to the A. During early flight testing, the F-104Bs exhibited an annoying tendency to snake back and forth during flight, indicating that a larger keel area was required. Twenty subsequent F-104B production versions (from FY 1957 batches) were fitted with the F-104A's ventral fin and were given considerably larger vertical fin area and a broad-chord, fully power-assisted rudder extending well beyond the end of the tail pipe. The area of the vertical fin of the F-104B was now fully 25 percent larger than that of the F-104A. Cheers, Andre Quote Link to post Share on other sites
JeffreyK Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) Sorry, I'm late to the party, but it was night time here in the UK... There are a number of visual differences between A and C, some are already covered here, some not: - If the downward firing C-1 seat was still fitted, the canopy demister tubing layout was different to all later models. - The avionics panel on the lower ST side fuselage near the cockpit had an NACA style air intake. - The gun port was faired over on many airframes due to problems with the Vulcan gun - On both fuselage sides, near the cockpit, there were stiffener plates of an elongated "L" shape fitted - The gun gas vents and shell ejector port on the forward fuselage underside, around the nose gear doors, had a different layout and shape to all alter models - The two engine hot air vent louvres on the upper rear fuselage, port side, were in a staggered position on some airframes as opposed to side-by-side on other airframes and all other F-104 variants - No areal refuelling probe - No underwing pylons - Differences from other F-104 variants were: short tail (as F-104C), thin tyres and non-bulged gear doors (as F-104C), no heated intake lips - i.e. they were NMF not black as on later variants Look for those details in these good walkarounds: http://www.philsaeronauticalstuff.com/f_104a/f_104a.html http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle2/f-104a_56-0733/ (note that this aircraft hasn't got the right seat fitted) Some period pictures with the C-1 seat: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/ET60-00056.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-3016.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-3009.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Medium/E-6209.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-5071.jpg Hope that helps... Cheers Jeffrey Edited January 19, 2013 by JeffreyK Quote Link to post Share on other sites
daywalker Posted January 19, 2013 Author Share Posted January 19, 2013 Very good information, thank you everybody! Sorry, I'm late to the party, but it was night time here in the UK... There are a number of visual differences between A and C, some are already covered here, some not: - If the downward firing C-1 seat was still fitted, the canopy demister tubing layout was different to all later models. - The avionics panel on the lower ST side fuselage near the cockpit had an NACA style air intake. - The gun port was faired over on many airframes due to problems with the Vulcan gun - On both fuselage sides, near the cockpit, there were stiffener plates of an elongated "L" shape fitted - The gun gas vents and shell ejector port on the forward fuselage underside, around the nose gear doors, had a different layout and shape to all alter models - The two engine hot air vent louvres on the upper rear fuselage, port side, were in a staggered position on some airframes as opposed to side-by-side on other airframes and all other F-104 variants - No areal refuelling probe - No underwing pylons - Differences from other F-104 variants were: short tail (as F-104C), thin tyres and non-bulged gear doors (as F-104C), no heated intake lips - i.e. they were NMF not black as on later variants Look for those details in these good walkarounds: http://www.philsaeronauticalstuff.com/f_104a/f_104a.html http://www.primeportal.net/hangar/bill_spidle2/f-104a_56-0733/ (note that this aircraft hasn't got the right seat fitted) Some period pictures with the C-1 seat: http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/ET60-00056.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-3016.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-3009.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Medium/E-6209.jpg http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Photo/F-104/Large/E-5071.jpg Hope that helps... Cheers Jeffrey Cheers Jeffrey, that was very helpful! Seeing the list of differences along with corresponding photos helped immensely. Thank you! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Steve jahn Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 (edited) The Link you provided does not work, however I am still correct about the prototype F-104B having the short tail. Show me a photo otherwise. I worked with lockheed Techs at Luke AFB in the early eighties. The last place that Starfighters were based in the US was Luke before they were sold to taiwan. F-104G and TF models were there. NASA had some longer I believe.This subject came up several times. An F-104A was modified into a two seater and during flight testing found it had bad longitudinal stability. Hence the long tail on the production models. I guess you could say the first plane could have been batch one but thats stretching it. Joe Baugher has a great website but he did not work on every plane ever made. steve http://www.joebaughe...rs/f104_4.html: Quote The initial batch of F-104Bs had the same vertical tail as did the F-104A single seater. However, the B did not have the ventral fin that was fitted to the A. During early flight testing, the F-104Bs exhibited an annoying tendency to snake back and forth during flight, indicating that a larger keel area was required. Twenty subsequent F-104B production versions (from FY 1957 batches) were fitted with the F-104A's ventral fin and were given considerably larger vertical fin area and a broad-chord, fully power-assisted rudder extending well beyond the end of the tail pipe. The area of the vertical fin of the F-104B was now fully 25 percent larger than that of the F-104A. Cheers, Edited January 19, 2013 by Steve jahn Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 From the link i provided above this pic shows a tech pointing out the location where underwing pylons would go: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/40b0d162b4dab625_large Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 In this very nice movie collection by Wayne Weiss, a short movie about 'F-104 Ejection Seat Testing' can be found. It reports that the 'C' model seat (no suffix) was fitted to serial (construction) numbers 1018-1033, and the 'C1' model seat from 1034 on. A 'D' model seat was under development. The 'C2' model isn't even mentioned yet. The C and C1 were the downward firing models, but does anyone know the difference between the two? Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted January 19, 2013 Share Posted January 19, 2013 Rob check here: http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rob de Bie Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Rob check here: http://www.ejectionsite.com/f104seat.htm Thanks Jari! I didn't know that Stanley actually designed the C seats. Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted May 12, 2013 Share Posted May 12, 2013 Here is a pic of a F-104B showing that it had the downward ejection seats: http://jetpilotoverseas.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/lemay-f-104b-ride-1958-180149_small.jpg BTW that is Curtis LeMay in the flight gear. Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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