Early F-14A Expert Advice

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

Guys, I need your expert advice...again.

I want to replicate VF-14 F-14A AB100 BuNo. 159421 but I have 2 issues:

1) I'm not sure of the exact month and year-frame the aircraft I want to replicate was painted. I guess it was between 1975 and 1977 but I'm not sure. I have pictures of this CAG bird from 1976 and it has the number 76 on the outside of both tails so it is not the same paint scheme as this one. This is the airplane's picture I took out of a 1977 Japan book:

2) Beavertail: I'm almost certain that this bird had the F-14A early style beavertail but I'm not sure whether it included the Dielectric Panels on both side of the tails or if they were not present at the time of the picture??

I have more than 25 F-14 books and not a single one explains when Grumman stopped including the dielectric panels on Tomcats. I have seen pictures of the first VF-1 and VF-2 F-14A Tomcats from 1974-1976 and some of them have the panels and others don't.

I have taken this picture out of M.A.T.S. superb F-14 website so you get an idea of what my dilemma is about. I'll appreciate your comments

Edited February 7, 2013 by #1 Tomcat Fan

[f4h1phantom]

159421 was a block 75 aircraft. That's the block that introduced the new beavertail, and I can see it clearly in the picture you are posting.

http://www.topedge.com/alley/text/f14a/f14ab75.htm

This is the main page from where the above link was taken, and it is worth a look:

http://www.topedge.com/alley/alley.htm

From what I've read, they started removing the dielectric panels "soon" after the aircraft entered squadron service, which I think was as early as 1975 if memory doesn't fail. But you don't need to worry about that now! :P

Here's a pic of an aircraft from an earlier block (most surely block 70) with the earlier beavertail and the dielectric fairings removed. It will hopefully serve to show the difference with the one you posted:

HTH,

Jorge.

Edited February 7, 2013 by f4h1phantom

[Yuri61]

F4H1Phantom is correct. The photo you posted is of Vf-14 after their first cruise with VF-32. It has the standard boat tail as in drawing number two. VF-14, VF-32, VF-1, and VF-2 all had the maiden cruise with the very early boat tail configuration. You could build this airframe with a standard boat tail as depicted in most of Hasegawa 1/48 scale F-14A kits. I am currently researching VF-14,VF-32, VF-1, and VF-2 photos to produce artwork so decals for their first cruises in 32 scale can be made. The early boat tail will follow in resin to complete the decals sets.

I really love the F-14A early schemes.

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

Thank you very much guys !!!! Its obvious you know your way around these birds.

The only thing that's still unclear to me is when (month and/or year) the picture I posted was taken. Yuri61, you say it was after their first cruise but did not mention when that was.

Another thing I could ask your advice for is whether these block Tomcats still had the early Gun Gas Vent (as the bird in Yuri's pic) or if they had switched to the new one.

F-14A Eary Gun Gas Vent

F-14A Later Gun Gas Vent

Thanks again,

Danny

Edited February 7, 2013 by #1 Tomcat Fan

[f4h1phantom]

Here's a pic of a block 75 aircraft with the segmented gun gas exhaust:

The full caption from the Wikimedia picture reads:

A U.S. Navy Grumman F-14A-75-GR Tomcat (BuNo 159428) from Fighter Squadron VF-33 Starfighters in flight. VF-33 was assigned to Carrier Air Wing 1 (CVW-1) aboard the aircraft carrier USS America (CV-66) for a deployment to the Atlantic Ocean from 30 May to 8 July 1982.

Jorge.

Edited February 7, 2013 by f4h1phantom

[graves_09]

To my eyes, the first picture (Danny's post) looks like they very early beaver tail with the dielectric panels installed. The VF-14 picture by F4H1Phantom, looks like the same early tail but with the dielectric panels removed. Notice how the edges around the tip (the part the sticks out the furtherest with the fuel dump) is squared, NOT rounded off like "standard" F-14A tail shown in F4H1Phantom's VF-33 picture.

[VFA-103guy]

To my eyes, the first picture (Danny's post) looks like they very early beaver tail with the dielectric panels installed. The VF-14 picture by F4H1Phantom, looks like the same early tail but with the dielectric panels removed. Notice how the edges around the tip (the part the sticks out the furtherest with the fuel dump) is squared, NOT rounded off like "standard" F-14A tail shown in F4H1Phantom's VF-33 picture.

Nope, that jet has the newer style beaver tail. As stated, Block 75 F-14's featured the newer design, and had it been the early style boat tail, the area would have clearly been wider and even with the dialectric panels removed, those areas were typically black during that time frame.

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

I've updated the Tomcat's picture (bigger size) so the experts can tell.

This is what Jorge's TOPEDGE link says about Block 75 Tomcats:

"This block introduced a modified air brake and beaver tail, which improved the aircraft's combat radius and subsonic cruise performance. The beaver tail was cut back (earlier F-14's had their dielectric panels on the beaver tail removed to give a similar shape and were modified to the new shape during overhauls) to the present shape. The airbrake was squared off and introduced a hump in its centre section. The change also saw the rear position light move from the beaver tail to the tip of the port vertical fin."

In my posted picture it is very clear that the rear position light is in the port vertical fin tip so this confirms the tail change of the above explanation. However, Ryan's (graves_09) comments also make sense because the picture tricks your eyes making it look like the early style tail. Maybe this was a hybrid Tomcat....new vertical fins but early beaver tail with dielectric panels still installed. Was that possible??

Boy I feel more confussed now than when I started this conversation. :(

Edited February 7, 2013 by #1 Tomcat Fan

[Shadrik]

The exhausts look quite different on the first picture. It looks like the outer layer of overlaping lamells is missing. Wasn't there a slightly different exhaust on very early F-14 A's? Vf-1 I think?

[f4h1phantom]

Neither of the pictures is the best to clearly see what kind of beavertail the aircraft have, particularly because of the angle from which they are taken, and also because of the low resolution.

But perhaps these enlargements can help a bit:

Just trying to help while sharing my passion for early Tomcats.

Jorge.

Edited February 7, 2013 by f4h1phantom

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

Neither of the pictures are the best to clearly see what kind of beavertail the aircraft have, particularly because of the angle from which they are taken, and also because of the low resolution.

But perhaps these enlargements can help a bit:

Just trying to help while sharing my passion for early Tomcats.

Jorge.

Thanks for the input Jorge. The Tomcat on the left clearly shows the early style tail without the dielectric panels and black painted like Brian said they were. The one I posted is still a mystery to be solved.

[f4h1phantom]

I've updated the Tomcat's picture (bigger size) so the experts can tell.

This is what Jorge's TOPEDGE link says about Block 75 Tomcats:

"This block introduced a modified air brake and beaver tail, which improved the aircraft's combat radius and subsonic cruise performance. The beaver tail was cut back (earlier F-14's had their dielectric panels on the beaver tail removed to give a similar shape and were modified to the new shape during overhauls) to the present shape. The airbrake was squared off and introduced a hump in its centre section. The change also saw the rear position light move from the beaver tail to the tip of the port vertical fin."

In my posted picture it is very clear that the rear position light is in the port vertical fin tip so this confirms the tail change of the above explanation. However, Ryan's (graves_09) comments also make sense because the picture tricks your eyes making it look like the early style tail. Maybe this was a hybrid Tomcat....new vertical fins but early beaver tail with dielectric panels still installed. Was that possible??

Boy I feel more confussed now than when I started this conversation. :(/>/>/>/>/>

I am not sure about what he means regarding the rear position light. Here's a pic of a block 65 aircraft with no light on the beavertail, but on both fins as "normal".

Even prototypes had the red lights on both fins. I am intrigued by that comment.

Jorge.

Edited February 7, 2013 by f4h1phantom

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

I am not sure about what he means regarding the rear position light. Here's a pic of a block 65 aircraft with no light on the beavertail, but on both fins as "normal".

Even prototypes had the red lights on both fins. I am intrigued by that comment.

Jorge.

Jorge, you should NOT confuse position light with AntiCollision lights. The 2 red lights you refer to are AntiCollision lights. Both the former and later vertical tails had the AntiCollision lights in the same spots: back tip of the Starboard side (SAC Light) and front tip of the Port side tail (PAC Light). The POSITION light is a WHITE light located in a cylinder-like shape on the upper back of the port vertical tail. You can clearly see that the VF-1 picture you just posted doesn't have one but my picture and the VF-33 you posted both have this light on the mentioned spot.

Tomcats had a 3rd AntiCollision light on the chin pod as well.

Edited February 7, 2013 by #1 Tomcat Fan

[Darren Roberts]

Here's a quick timeline for the changes to the boattail/gun vents. This is off the top of my head, so I'm not including BuNo's. I'll include block numbers if I can recall them.

-- Original boattail with dialectric panels in place/7 segment louvered gun vent (block 70 and earlier)

-- Dialectric panels removed

-- Standard boattail introduced/7 segment louvered gun vent still installed (block 75)

-- Standard boattail/standard 2 segment gun vent introduced

-- Alpha probe in the nose introduced (block 110?)

-- ECM blisters introduced (block 125)

There are many different combinations, and some of the old airframes lasted well into the late 80's, so you can't necessarily go by timeframe to say whether or not a specific plane had what or what no. For instance, Gypsy 207, which shot down the Libyan MiG in 1989, still had the 7 segment louvered gun vent installed. I've also seen a shot of a VF-33 jet around the DS I timeframe that retained the original boattail sans the dialectric panels.

I'm actually building the VF-14 jet that you referenced for my Bicentennial builds. It has no alpha probe in the nose, it has the 7 segment louvered gun vent, no ECM blisters, standard boattail (I believe this was actually the first airframe in this block, so it was the first one to have the standard boattail), and the fin caps had the hexagonal shaped stiffener plates.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Darren Roberts

[#1 Tomcat Fan]

Here's a quick timeline for the changes to the boattail/gun vents. This is off the top of my head, so I'm not including BuNo's. I'll include block numbers if I can recall them.

-- Original boattail with dialectric panels in place/7 segment louvered gun vent (block 70 and earlier)

-- Dialectric panels removed

-- Standard boattail introduced/7 segment louvered gun vent still installed (block 75)

-- Standard boattail/standard 2 segment gun vent introduced

-- Alpha probe in the nose introduced (block 110?)

-- ECM blisters introduced (block 125)

There are many different combinations, and some of the old airframes lasted well into the late 80's, so you can't necessarily go by timeframe to say whether or not a specific plane had what or what no. For instance, Gypsy 207, which shot down the Libyan MiG in 1989, still had the 7 segment louvered gun vent installed. I've also seen a shot of a VF-33 jet around the DS I timeframe that retained the original boattail sans the dialectric panels.

I'm actually building the VF-14 jet that you referenced for my Bicentennial builds. It has no alpha probe in the nose, it has the 7 segment louvered gun vent, no ECM blisters, standard boattail (I believe this was actually the first airframe in this block, so it was the first one to have the standard boattail), and the fin caps had the hexagonal shaped stiffener plates.

Thank you very much Darren. You have resolved my doubts with 2 remaining: you say this bird had a standard boattail, does it mean dialectric panels included? Do you know when the picture I posted was taken?? I believe it was 1977 but I need someone like you to confirm it.

[f4h1phantom]

Jorge, you should NOT confuse position light with AntiCollision lights. The 2 red lights you refer to are AntiCollision lights. Both the former and later vertical tails had the AntiCollision lights in the same spots: back tip of the Starboard side (SAC Light) and front tip of the Port side tail (PAC Light). The POSITION light is a WHITE light located in a cylinder-like shape on the upper back of the port vertical tail. You can clearly see that the VF-1 picture you just posted doesn't have one but my picture and the VF-33 you posted both have this light on the mentioned spot.

Tomcats had a 3rd AntiCollision light on the chin pod as well.

Apologies for the confusion, you are of course right. And thanks for the education!

Jorge.

[f4h1phantom]

Double post, sorry!

Edited February 7, 2013 by f4h1phantom

[VFA-103guy]

Thanks for the input Jorge. The Tomcat on the left clearly shows the early style tail without the dielectric panels and black painted like Brian said they were. The one I posted is still a mystery to be solved.

There's no mystery..dude, it's the newer style beaver tail and it's very clear. I seriously think you're thinking too much into it.

[VFA-103guy]

@ D-Rob-

The probe on the nose started with Block 95 F-14's. VF-84 had rec'd some of the first batch of them.

[Darren Roberts]

@ D-Rob-

The probe on the nose started with Block 95 F-14's. VF-84 had rec'd some of the first batch of them.

Good catch!

[VFA-103guy]

The exhausts look quite different on the first picture. It looks like the outer layer of overlaping lamells is missing. Wasn't there a slightly different exhaust on very early F-14 A's? Vf-1 I think?

That's a good question, but I don't believe so.

Darren may be able to answer this question. He's kinda the go to guy on early F-14's. I'm just the late A, B and D guy that dabbles in early F-14A's and test tomcats.

[Darren Roberts]

The nozzles are different from what are considered "standard". I believe it was an earlier version of the TF-30. As if the TF-30 wasn't a crappy engine already, the earlier versions were even worse. "Catastrophic engine failure" was a normal term for those early motors!

[bushande]

I would concur, that the nozzles on this bird are actually the bigger peculiarity. I only saw those very early cans on some few VF-1 and VF-124 birds and always assumed they were gone at a very early point in the Tomcat's service live at least at the same time the boat tail went away or even earlier. That this Tomcat features already the "newer" beaver tail but still those burners really looks kind of off to me. But i guess nothing is impossible regarding the Navy.