1/10 Ascent Stage LM-5 Eagle

[K2Pete]

By the way, am I right in assuming that over those crossbeams all across the LM like on your cutaway, all it had was just thin micrometeoroid cladding and no smooth solid panels anywhere, even underneath the cladding?

From what I understand, the crossbeams are an aluminum cage that the panels attach to, but there is a layer, or 20, of thermal insulation and then the micrometeoroid shielding panels. And yes, no solid panels ...

Here's an image showing the cage.

http://www.semissourian.com/photos/12/48/02/1248025-H.jpg

And my cutaway is still a bit of a 'work-in-progress' as I'd like to build portions of the cage as well.

[Paul Mullins]

Guys,

For cladding and cover purposes, Candylandcrafts.com in Somerville New Jersey is a candy making supply house. They sell aluminium foil wrappers in 6 inch by 6 inch sheets. 125 sheets to a package for a little over 7 dollars per package. They have foil in all sorts of colors including that orange/gold color that's so hard to replicate for the LM decent stage, plain gold, silver, and black. I ordered one package of each and paid 37 dollars including shipping. They're in the LM book from the Space in Minature series.

FYI HTH

Paul

[crackerjazz]

Hi, Pete - thanks for the photo! It's so clear - it seems like it was taken yesterday. Hi Paul, thanks for the info about the source for cladding material! :)

Does anyone know if the ascent engine cross-section in this document (Apollo Liquid Primary Propulsion System) is valid for the LM-5?

I suppose only one type of engine (bell design at least) was used throughout all LM versions? It's on page 32.

http://ntrs.nasa.gov/archive/nasa/casi.ntrs.nasa.gov/19700026405_1970026405.pdf

Hi Vincent, I superimposed it over your blueprint (http://spacemodels.nuxit.net/LEM-24/Mid-section-cabin/index.htm) and it seems to fit well:

I liked the cross-section because it had the lip. And also I wanted a bell that reached until throat level for the model so that if turned upside

down one can see well into the throat. I suppose it would be black and hard to see, but just in case someone takes a flashlight to it :)

I drew over the diagram and will have it 3D-printed. I'm just really curious about the "white polished" material if it turns out really smooth

and polished. If it's actually a sanding process I do hope it doesn't fillet the lip edge and that it still stays sharp. I was thinking about 3 options

for the Bell - (1) vacuformed (I'd have to make a plug and a vacuform box - always wanted but never got around to it) (2) CNC, and (3) 3D printed.

3D printing seems to be the faster option right now so I'll go ahead and cross my fingers - if it doesn't work out well then I go to option 2. I'll take

the vacuforming route last as it's the hardest for me to achieve (although I'm quite sure that will help me more with general model-building in the

long term).

[niart17]

Man this is looking better and better. I love the nozzles you've modeled. I am playing with all this new fangled technology too so it's good to see other's trying it out and hopefully learn from one another. I didn't catch it, did you say if you were doing the whole LM or just the ascent stage? Either way is challenging I'm sure.

Keep up the great work!

Bill

[crackerjazz]

Hi Bill, thanks! I was initially planning to build a 1/18 scale LM. I used Vincent's plans to draw these for example.

I started with the easiest parts to model but then I got stuck with the easiest parts to model :(

I won't be using them for now, if at all. There are some leg parts that I can't really model yet at the moment.

I'll give myself a year or two maybe. That's the reason I made up my mind to build just the ascent stage for now.

Besides, the printed parts can weigh heavy on your pocket, I'm finding out more and more.

[crackerjazz]

This evening, got a box!

This is their FUD (Frosted Ultra Detail) material. They are way, way, smoother than just FD. I'm happy with these, and don't really find

the need to search for an even better printer. (I heard there's one capable of printing to .001mm!) But this is good enough for me. The

fuzziness is barely noticeable unless zoomed in on. Besides - I don't think I can ever scratchbuild 16 of these and live to tell about it.

(I don't think I have Vincent's patience).

I tried Tamiya primer on it tonight - it didn't stick! I read one doesn't need to primer it but it would take acrylic straight on. I had to remove the

primer with a toothbrush under the tap. While I was doing that I noticed oily stuff from the toothbrush bristles and onto my fingers and it

dawned on me - Shapeways highly recommends removing the wax. I think it's an oil of some kind and I googled up some ways of removing

it like using kid's shampoo - I tried it and it did work - but just to be sure I dunked it into isopropyl alcohol for a few minutes as someone had done.

He said paint started adhering after that. I'll have to try again tomorrow.

The alcohol turned the nozzles white. I guess that means they're squeaky clean enough for painting. Boy was I brave -

they could've melted away before my eyes!

Edited March 7, 2013 by crackerjazz

[K2Pete]

Oh-h-h-h ... those look goo-o-o-od!

Out of curiousity, is it necessary to include the sprue as well? Or is it less expensive to call this ONE part instead of 16 individual parts.

I'm assuming that you'd be saving on material without the sprue.

And crackerjazz, your Descent Stage parts look terrific!

The 'research' you and niart17 are doing, is most appreciated!

Thanx

Pete

[spaceman]

Wow, the nozzles look great, and the 3D printer seems to be a very good tool.

Keep up your interesting studies, this is real virgin soil for me and for many others.

[niart17]

WOW! those did turn out nice. I was impressed with the Frosted Detail, I can only imagine if the ultra detail is smoother then these are really really nice. And yeah, that was pretty brave just dunking them all like that. But glad it worked. Can't wait to see paint on them. Are you going to go with some sort of metalizer paint or just stick with regular paints?

BTW, your descent stage was looking really awesome too, hope you get to that as well one day.

Bill

[j-love]

Those do look great ... wow.

BTW, here's a process I just found recently for polishing ABS printed parts. (Not for the faint of heart.)

Acetone Vapor Polishing Lunacy

[crackerjazz]

Thanks, Pete! : ) I put the sprue in there for effect, haha - to make them look like model kit parts. But I think they served a good purpose, too, cause I read they clean up the prints of support wax somehow over at the printing shop. And I thought that if they did that manually it would somehow help. Oh, and yeah it did save me quite a bit on printing, Individually it was something like 6+ dollars, shipping excluded. But these 8 nozzles cost me 32 dollars shipping included so I saved a bit there. I'm thinking maybe I should have included twice the number on the sprue to save even more. Maybe I'll try that for the other 8 nozzles I need. With smaller width sprues this time.

Spaceman, thanks! I'd love to build more 3D prints, but at the same time I'm hoping to keep the number of printed parts down because of price. For the ascent stage engine bell they want $70 (the wife is becoming suspicious - I can't tell her they're car repair parts anymore as the car is running pretty well lately). I will try to make a plug for that one and have it vacuformed.

Hi Bill, yes FUD is capable of printing more finer details. Not perfectly smooth of course but forgiveable and enough to make me smile. I'm excited too about painting it. Couldn't tonight because of a really long day (and night) at work but tomorrow - I'm surely looking forward to it. I'll be trying some Tamiya acrylic which they recommend. Deep inside though I still really want to try my normal paint, now that the alcohol has done it's thing. Maybe I'll try one using my normal Tamiya-primer-first method.

Oh and thanks, guys, about the descent stage. Yeah maybe one day I'll get to that when my drawing skills are up to par. I have to learn from you, Bill. Man I love that work of yours. One day I'll be able to do that, too - i hope!

J-Love, thanks! And thanks for that very interesting article! :)/>

Happy Friday, everyone!

Edited March 8, 2013 by crackerjazz

[spaceman]

As I said, the nozzles will look very nice and I wanted to anyway after the price inquire, but $70 is already expensive.

[crackerjazz]

Oh that's the ascent engine bell, sorry. Yes $70 is not for me either - I won't dare have that printed there - I value my life more :) I'll try making a plug for it using the conventional way and have it vacuformed.

[niart17]

Yeah, I think putting 8 on a sprue would work. Just mirror the ones you have to the other side of the sprue in a Christmas tree type set-up and that alone would help bring the price of material and clean-up down. From what I understand they do most of the clean-up by hand so anything to make it easier on them so they don't mess up a part is a good thing. And dude, your models are just as good if not better than mine. I'm definately not at the top of the CAD world.

Based on the background of your models it looks like you're using Solidworks? If that's the case, I'm curious, are you just exporting to .stl and then uploading to their site or are you using their SW add-in that does the export directly? I'm not using their add-in and I don't know if the results would be better with it. Also, I see they have a 64M file size limit but you can .zip files to them. Do you know if that means that a file larger than 64 can be zipped and it would be ok, or is that still not allowed?

BTW, something you could maybe do is open a shop there and that way you can tell the wife that yeah, you may have spent $70 on a single model piece, but with the ton of money you're going to make it's going to pay for itself 10-fold. You just have to buy it for research. That might work until she figures out there aren't a ton of people that are going to build a 1/10 LM.

Keep posting progress, I'm loving this.

Bill

[crackerjazz]

Hi Bill, I'm not using the add-in either. From what I understand, there is no difference in results since it applies the same user STL settings.

And the STL file sent is not saved on your computer and has to be saved separately. The only advantage is in that it prompts you about filename,

description, and so on instead of your searching for them on the webpage and wondering what you have to do next. Good idea about a shop,

- just wish I had much to offer. Buy it "for research"? - I know my wife will catch the tiniest twitch on my face, but I'll give it a try :)/>

Wow, I wonder where most of the weekend had gone. I guess it went mostly to figuring out the best angles to bevel the styrene edges. Why

do I feel working with styrene is just like carpentry minus the nails.

So not much progress there. Hopefully I can accomplish something tonight like primer the nozzles like I'd planned.

Edited March 10, 2013 by crackerjazz

[ralf]

Well it's certainly a different approach than the 3d printing. But I suspect in 10 years or so scratchbuilding is old school and we all print out our entire models. Keep up the good work!

[crackerjazz]

Hi Ralf, thanks! Yes by that time high quality 3D-printing will be within reach and might even be a staple in every modeler's workshop.

And 3D modeling magazines would probably be commonplace at the bookstore, where there's practically none right now. There's something

about scratchbuilding, though, that captivates me, imperfections and all. There's that "human touch" that makes it fun to look at -

"Hey he missed that, or That's a bit wonky" - there's a fun factor to it. It shows that it's a creation rather than a factory product.

I guess it's akin to the fun of looking at sketches than the final render.

Edited March 13, 2013 by crackerjazz

[K2Pete]

There's something about scratchbuilding, though, that captivates me, imperfections and all. There's that "human touch" that makes it fun to look at -

"Hey he missed that, or That's a bit wonky" - there's a fun factor to it. It shows that it's a creation rather than a factory product.

I guess it's akin to the fun of looking at sketches than the final render.

I completely agree with you! The aspect of working with my hands is what has drawn me to this hobby. ( I'm tired of 'drawing' on the computer ... )

When I see you chamfer the edges of your panels, I appreciate that extra bit of time it took to do it. It's those details I love to watch come together. To get into the thinking process of the builder and learn from it.

When I first got into the hobby 5 or so years ago, I had a resistance to using aftermarket parts, I guess, because it was too easy. But then I realized I couldn't make my own, say RCS thruster bells, so there's a supplier out there, I'll use his. I feel the same way about 3D. It's fun to create your own and see 'em printed out as well as using this new technology for the more difficult-to-make parts.

Having said that, the spacing between your radiator 'ribs' is perfect! And for the first time, I have a clear idea as to just how big this model is gonna be, comparing it to the glue bottle ... wow-w-w!

Thanx

Pete

[niart17]

good deal Crackerjazz, good to know I wasn't doing it totally against the grain. Seems like we're on the same page as for as the models.

Dude, your scratch building skills are really up there. Perfect mitered corners, jeesh, I just butt join everything and let sand paper try to make them nice and striaght after the fact, which is why my corners are not nearly as precise and clean as yours.

And Pete, I agree about the 3D printing. I think it's a great tool to use when other techniques just won't work or are so difficult or expensive to do using traditional building methods. If the cost were a lot cheaper, it would be fun however to try to create a full model to assemble using 3D printing. I think possibly one day that's how you'll get models. Log on to a site, buy the temporary use of a model file and print it out, either at home or at a print service, then build. Print on demand could change the way a lot of different things are produced. Less waste, less overhead. It also could spell trouble though for a lot of companies since acess to manufacturing would be much more open to anybody...interesting times ahead. I will say that I'm going to start letting my daughters play with 3d programs as early as they will able to comprehend what's going on. I don't want them behind the curve if that's the way things will be headed.

Bill

[crackerjazz]

Pete, Bill, thanks for the kind words! :) You are absolutely right about starting them early. Kids nowadays can comprehend more complexity.

They figure out complicated games on the computer so quickly while I'm stuck on games about throwing stuff and such.

Still chipping away. I was hoping to post something more substantial - this weekend, hopefully. It's Friday again - where'd the days

go?

[crackerjazz]

Some progress shots....

Edit: Just one more shot before I call it a night.

Edited March 24, 2013 by crackerjazz

[spaceman]

WOW, this looks fantastic. :clap2:

Let's see your next steps, I'm very curious.

[johnbuck]

1/10th Crackerjazz.....wow.... that's bigger than the standard doll house scale of 1/12 ! It certainly is a fine piece of work thus far. At this scale you will be able to include absolutely everything . I look forward to following this build very much.

Best

John

[johnbuck]

and I do so agree about the comments re scratchbuilding. It gives you a kind of rebel independence....you can build what you want to build....not what a kit manufacturer says you should build..

The research, which teaches you so much. All those lovely sheets of virgin styrene....knowing that whatever can be done in metal can be done in this material. You get marking out,cutting up,cementing,solving probs as you go. I don't think there is a greater buzz. Yep I'm waxing lyrical............

Incidentally the space paper modelling sites have some great stuff and the ways of working are very similar. Try this site the artwork is phenomenal ......

http://axmpaperspacescalemodels.com/

best wishes

John

[crackerjazz]

Spaceman, thanks! :) You'll have to wait a bit for the next steps, heheh. The shape of the equipment bay where they thrusters connect to have got me scratching my head at the moment. But I've got some good news - remember the $70 ascent engine bell? I tried to canvass from other printers and was told they can't beat that price. One even quoted me $230! So when someone offered to print at $32 I said that was too hard to pass up. I decided printing is still better as opposed to vacuforming so as not to lose the tapering wall thickness. Not that it would be noticeable at all but I know I'll sleep better. And it'll be faster to make, too. And I was thinking that even if the print doesn't turn out that smooth, there aren't any details to lose if it should need some putty and sanding.

Hey, John! Thanks for your kind words. How I wish I could do what you're doing on your crazy-detailed ultra-realistic LM airframe. I don't think I have THAT kind of skill for model engineering :) Your have a gift for transforming stryene scrap into priceless gems. I'll try to add some interior details using your methods as soon as I finish the exterior - there's so much to learn from the way you build - thanks for sharing. And thanks for that papermodeling link!