F-4 intake question

[Scott R Wilson]

Scott,

Hate to disagree but I have seen the jet they used to measure and those patches were on that aircraft. It is not a myth I have actually touched that jet.

We had a couple of D model up in Alaska that had that access panel cracked and repaired with a scab panel, although not as proud but still not flush.

Cheers

I'm still not buying it. If there was ONE panel on the jet that stood proud with the rest flush and Tamiya copied that, maybe. But when the raised panels on the model are the same panels on each side, corresponding to access panels on each side it just doesn't fit what you'd see on an ABDR jet. Patches on an ABDR jet are quite randomly scattered. Same with scab patches. If ONE access panel had a crack in it and had a scab placed over the entire panel, it would stand proud, but to have multiple panels done that way, and the same panels both left and right the way Tamiya did it to me is just not plausible. As I recall Tamiya also had raised maintenance access panels on their 1/32 F-14 and F-15 that don't exist on the real jets, and when those models came out there's no way either type had been used for ABDR. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Do you have any photos to prove what you're saying, if I may ask? That would help settle the question.

Regardless of their origins, the raised panels on the F-4 models need to be sanded down flush and rescribed. For anyone with a Tamiya F-4 model here's a couple of photos I took of the panel on the fuselage side above the flap hinge, note there is no raised area around it:

Scott W.

[Ol Crew Dog]

I'm still not buying it. If there was ONE panel on the jet that stood proud with the rest flush and Tamiya copied that, maybe. But when the raised panels on the model are the same panels on each side, corresponding to access panels on each side it just doesn't fit what you'd see on an ABDR jet. Patches on an ABDR jet are quite randomly scattered. Same with scab patches. If ONE access panel had a crack in it and had a scab placed over the entire panel, it would stand proud, but to have multiple panels done that way, and the same panels both left and right the way Tamiya did it to me is just not plausible. As I recall Tamiya also had raised maintenance access panels on their 1/32 F-14 and F-15 that don't exist on the real jets, and when those models came out there's no way either type had been used for ABDR. Guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Do you have any photos to prove what you're saying, if I may ask? That would help settle the question.

Regardless of their origins, the raised panels on the F-4 models need to be sanded down flush and rescribed. For anyone with a Tamiya F-4 model here's a couple of photos I took of the panel on the fuselage side above the flap hinge, note there is no raised area around it:

Scott W.

Scott,

There's another thread going on the F-15, check out the Georgia Air Gaurd jets wing. Those are beef ups scab patches.

What do you think are on the F-15s and F-16s , those scab patches, raised tracing that area or panel.

The beef ups on the Vertical stabs is a scab patch, put there to prevent cracking in the tourtière box. If you have any experience working aircraft these are common repairs. Even their F-15 kit I have seen patches on those panels where the canopy hinge point is, just got to remember the tail number, was changing the canopy when my leg rubbed against it while riding the hump.

[Scott R Wilson]

Scott,

There's another thread going on the F-15, check out the Georgia Air Gaurd jets wing. Those are beef ups scab patches.

What do you think are on the F-15s and F-16s , those scab patches, raised tracing that area or panel.

The beef ups on the Vertical stabs is a scab patch, put there to prevent cracking in the tourtière box. If you have any experience working aircraft these are common repairs. Even their F-15 kit I have seen patches on those panels where the canopy hinge point is, just got to remember the tail number, was changing the canopy when my leg rubbed against it while riding the hump.

Now you're changing the subject. You first said Tamiya modelled an ABDR trainer and copied the patches, and that you personally made some of the holes and subsequent patches in ABDR training. I say that's baloney, ABDR patches are irregularly shaped and scattered randomly, while the Tamiya raised areas in question correspond to removable access panels. Now you're talking about scab patch repairs on access panels that have developed cracks and scabs applied to beef up areas prone to cracks. That's a different thing altogether than ABDR training patches. You've also implied that the Tamiya raised areas would indicate scabs applied for structural strengthening like you see on F-15s and F-16s.

Dude, I worked on F-4Cs for a year and some months, then F-4Es for over four and a half years. I am well familiar with scab patches for cracks and other damage. I personally caused a scab patch to have to be applied to the leading edge of an F-4E's wing when a TACAN digital to analog data converter I'd left sitting on top of the fuselage behind Door 19 slid off while I was away to another jet to sign off a red X for someone. I know scab patches applied in the same place to all jets in a fleet for strengthening are done by TCTO, and there was never such a TCTO for the raised access panels as seen on the Tamiya F-4 fuselage and intakes. I also know that if an individual panel had damage a scab would be applied to cover the damage, and not the whole panel. And I know if one panel suffered a crack or damage on a particular jet they sure as heck wouldn't preemptively apply sheet metal to cover the entire panel on both panels (one from each side of the jet).

I am not trying to fight with you, and I left you an "out" when I said we'll have to agree to disagree but you kept on. Okay, maybe because it's 3:20 am and I haven't finished my coffee before going to work, but I don't feel like pussyfooting around. I will say it directly, Tamiya did NOT copy ABDR patches, and your saying they did and that you personally had knocked some of the holes and made the patches they copied is pure BS. The ABDR myth for the Tamiya F-4 model is incorrect and needs to be retired. And those raised panels on the intakes and fuselage need to be sanded smooth and rescribed.

Scott Wilson

[ThePhantomTwo]

I would have to agree with Scott on this.If it is F-4C 63-7433 in question that Kadena recieved for ABDR from my unit,181st TFG that Tamiya used,I can tell you it did not leave this base with "proud" panels.Not one F-4C I ever worked on our flightline or from other units, had the "proud" panels Tamiya molded on thier 1/32 F-4C/D.The proud panels are exactly what Scott said,if we had a panel develop a crack or became damaged,we would order one thru the logistics/supply system and they either came from Hill or AMARG for a replacement,I can count on one hand and still have fingers left over how many times we had to do that.Some of our fleet did have a few patches from use in SEA or other non-combat units,I have doubts as well that the panels were a TCTO items or they would also be on the display F-4C we have on base as well as the one at Camp Atterbury(our F-4C fleet ranged from early production to late production F-4C's,and late in our F-4C days,we had the remaining former EF-4C's),an hour or so from here.My experiance with Phantoms pretty much mirrors Scott's,except mine was with the ANG though I was pretty much on orders or temporary technician status from 1987 to 1993,not active AF.

Pictures of our display F-4C(ex-EF-4C),pics taken while under going a re-paint.It was retired right off our flightline before being on display at State Headquarters in Indianapolis(Stout Field).The ABDR F-4C Scott posted is one of our former F-4C's(ex-EF-4C)that was a ABDR bird at Volk Field,WI before going to the Hardwood Range at Finley,WI.

Edited February 17, 2013 by ThePhantomTwo

[ThePhantomTwo]

And the final product of the re-paint

[B-17fan]

Here are some ABDR patches

[Ol Crew Dog]

Now you're changing the subject. You first said Tamiya modelled an ABDR trainer and copied the patches, and that you personally made some of the holes and subsequent patches in ABDR training. I say that's baloney, ABDR patches are irregularly shaped and scattered randomly, while the Tamiya raised areas in question correspond to removable access panels. Now you're talking about scab patch repairs on access panels that have developed cracks and scabs applied to beef up areas prone to cracks. That's a different thing altogether than ABDR training patches. You've also implied that the Tamiya raised areas would indicate scabs applied for structural strengthening like you see on F-15s and F-16s.

Dude, I worked on F-4Cs for a year and some months, then F-4Es for over four and a half years. I am well familiar with scab patches for cracks and other damage. I personally caused a scab patch to have to be applied to the leading edge of an F-4E's wing when a TACAN digital to analog data converter I'd left sitting on top of the fuselage behind Door 19 slid off while I was away to another jet to sign off a red X for someone. I know scab patches applied in the same place to all jets in a fleet for strengthening are done by TCTO, and there was never such a TCTO for the raised access panels as seen on the Tamiya F-4 fuselage and intakes. I also know that if an individual panel had damage a scab would be applied to cover the damage, and not the whole panel. And I know if one panel suffered a crack or damage on a particular jet they sure as heck wouldn't preemptively apply sheet metal to cover the entire panel on both panels (one from each side of the jet).

I am not trying to fight with you, and I left you an "out" when I said we'll have to agree to disagree but you kept on. Okay, maybe because it's 3:20 am and I haven't finished my coffee before going to work, but I don't feel like pussyfooting around. I will say it directly, Tamiya did NOT copy ABDR patches, and your saying they did and that you personally had knocked some of the holes and made the patches they copied is pure BS. The ABDR myth for the Tamiya F-4 model is incorrect and needs to be retired. And those raised panels on the intakes and fuselage need to be sanded smooth and rescribed.

Scott Wilson

I am so impressed with your knowledge......

[ThePhantomTwo]

Crap,now I remember why I quit replying to posts on the boards.........

[chek]

Well, Scott's a recognised authority and documenter of USAF Phantoms, so I for one am happy to accept his word as the last on the matter, just as I'm happy to take advantage of his superb collection of photos and stories he freely shares.

There's no point in having the privilege of access to people a thousand times more knowledgeable like Scott on this board, then arguing against them from a position of ignorance.

[Rex]

hah, Dave

I have a question, though,,,,,,,that donkey d*ck,,,,is that for the EF-4C? (sorry, I got lost staring at pics, etc)

if so, that is a cool and useful photo all by itself

it is cool to read Volk Field and Finley on here,,,,,,I grew up on a farm on the opposite side of Petenwell flowage from that area,,,,we once had a contract to cut trees to help restore the Wildlife refuge near Finley and Sprague,,,,,used to watch fighterbombers circle over the farm as they made their runs at the Finley targets (or after, I don't know, they weren't low enough to tell)

[ThePhantomTwo]

Yup Rex,it is a EF-4C radome.I worked more on the ex-Wild Weasel C than the standard C,by the time I came out of crew chief tech school nearly all the "plain" C's were off the flight line and replaced with remaining lower timed EF's from Ft. Wayne,before that we flew a mix of the two.

[Scott R Wilson]

I am so impressed with your knowledge......

Somehow I don't think that was meant as a compliment. Macht nichts...

This does bring to mind a couple other similar situations the other folks reading this may find entertaining. Many years ago when I lived in Texas a former F-111 crew chief worked at the same business jet maintenance company that I worked for. He told a number of people about his incentive flight during which, so he said, the F-111 flew at Mach 4.6. Some of the other folks, knowing my USAF background and strong interest in military aircraft told me about his claim and asked if it was possibly true. I told them of course not, and I tried to be polite and suggested the fellow was mistaken. He got really ****** off at me, insisting it was indeed Mach 4.6.

The next day I brought in several books about the F-111 to prove my point, and of course he then insisted that the true top speed was classified and all military jets go a lot faster than what they say, and stuck to the Mach 4.6 story. When I still said he was wrong, there was no way an F-111 could fly Mach 3 let alone 4.6, he cussed me out pretty well and we were enemies till the day I left that job.

A few years ago here in Wisconsin another fellow who has never served in the military told me he went down to Madison back when the Wisconsin ANG was flying A-10s, and bought himself a ride in the backseat of one of their Warthogs. Of course I was surprised and blurted out that the military not only doesn't sell rides in fighters but that the only 2-seat A-10 ever built was at Edwards and had been long retired from flying by the time this ride supposedly took place. He didn't get mad like the first guy, but still insisted he'd bought a backseat ride. The next day he brought in an article he'd found online and printed out that claimed the USAF had bought 25 two seat A-10s, and continued to claim he had ridden in one. I just let it drop and didn't argue with him.

Not long afterwards I was talking to one of our engineers at my work, and he mentioned his wife had been a crew chief and got a back seat ride in an A-10 when she was stationed at England AFB, Louisiana. Again I said the only 2-seater was at Edwards and hadn't flown in years. He then told me she didn't sit in a seat, but sat on the floor in the area behind the pilot's seat. When I told him that wasn't possible he got quite angry.

So why do you suppose people make up BS stories and then get so ticked off when someone holds up the BS flag? Do they really think no one will ever call them on the lies? I wonder if the people who do this have some need in their lives to be admired or noticed and telling the tall tales is the only way they feel they can fill that need? How pathetic.

Scott

[Ben Brown]

Perhaps it's time to let this one go. I seem to recall, a loooong time ago, when the model was first released, the discussion on rec.models.scale (remember that?) started out with somebody only theorizing that those raised panels might have been BDR panels, and over the years, it got repeated to the point where they eventually were BDR panels. Sort of like the purple Nakajima Rufe.

Ben

[Ol Crew Dog]

Somehow I don't think that was meant as a compliment. Macht nichts...

This does bring to mind a couple other similar situations the other folks reading this may find entertaining. Many years ago when I lived in Texas a former F-111 crew chief worked at the same business jet maintenance company that I worked for. He told a number of people about his incentive flight during which, so he said, the F-111 flew at Mach 4.6. Some of the other folks, knowing my USAF background and strong interest in military aircraft told me about his claim and asked if it was possibly true. I told them of course not, and I tried to be polite and suggested the fellow was mistaken. He got really ****** off at me, insisting it was indeed Mach 4.6.

The next day I brought in several books about the F-111 to prove my point, and of course he then insisted that the true top speed was classified and all military jets go a lot faster than what they say, and stuck to the Mach 4.6 story. When I still said he was wrong, there was no way an F-111 could fly Mach 3 let alone 4.6, he cussed me out pretty well and we were enemies till the day I left that job.

A few years ago here in Wisconsin another fellow who has never served in the military told me he went down to Madison back when the Wisconsin ANG was flying A-10s, and bought himself a ride in the backseat of one of their Warthogs. Of course I was surprised and blurted out that the military not only doesn't sell rides in fighters but that the only 2-seat A-10 ever built was at Edwards and had been long retired from flying by the time this ride supposedly took place. He didn't get mad like the first guy, but still insisted he'd bought a backseat ride. The next day he brought in an article he'd found online and printed out that claimed the USAF had bought 25 two seat A-10s, and continued to claim he had ridden in one. I just let it drop and didn't argue with him.

Not long afterwards I was talking to one of our engineers at my work, and he mentioned his wife had been a crew chief and got a back seat ride in an A-10 when she was stationed at England AFB, Louisiana. Again I said the only 2-seater was at Edwards and hadn't flown in years. He then told me she didn't sit in a seat, but sat on the floor in the area behind the pilot's seat. When I told him that wasn't possible he got quite angry.

So why do you suppose people make up BS stories and then get so ticked off when someone holds up the BS flag? Do they really think no one will ever call them on the lies? I wonder if the people who do this have some need in their lives to be admired or noticed and telling the tall tales is the only way they feel they can fill that need? How pathetic.

Scott

I served as a Crew Chief on the f-15 for 20 years, A through S models.

Worked engines and hydraulics, TA, Crash Recovery as well as QA.

I was stationed at Langley, Kadena, Elmendorf and Lakenheath.

I have worked on Dc-3, Martin 404, DH-6, DH-7, king air, Queen air, Lear 35, F-15, mig-29, Su-27, F-4e, F-4f, Tornado, alpha jets, Mirage 2000 and Etendard.

I have flown C-150/52, Dakota, T-tail Lance, Dc-3, Martin 404, lear, king air , queen air and DH-6.

I was one of the people that helped Jake with his F-15 book.

I have 3 degree's plus multiple certifications in aeronautics and aerospace.

Currently in management on the JSF program.

The jets we put on the pedestals and cement blocks were ABDR birds in most cases, the ABDR patches were replaced with pretty scab patches before painting.

The F-4 at Langley painted in ghost gray was an ABDR bird along with the one at Elmendorf and Kadena....

The one in Elmendorf sat in the Alert cells when I was the NCOIC, the one at Kadena was one of three on the east ramp near the hush house, the powers that be picked the better of the three for the static bird.

I was US Air Force museum HPC (Historical Property Custodian) and Squadron historian.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Ol Crew Dog

[Ol Crew Dog]

Somehow I don't think that was meant as a compliment. Macht nichts...

This does bring to mind a couple other similar situations the other folks reading this may find entertaining. Many years ago when I lived in Texas a former F-111 crew chief worked at the same business jet maintenance company that I worked for. He told a number of people about his incentive flight during which, so he said, the F-111 flew at Mach 4.6. Some of the other folks, knowing my USAF background and strong interest in military aircraft told me about his claim and asked if it was possibly true. I told them of course not, and I tried to be polite and suggested the fellow was mistaken. He got really ****** off at me, insisting it was indeed Mach 4.6.

The next day I brought in several books about the F-111 to prove my point, and of course he then insisted that the true top speed was classified and all military jets go a lot faster than what they say, and stuck to the Mach 4.6 story. When I still said he was wrong, there was no way an F-111 could fly Mach 3 let alone 4.6, he cussed me out pretty well and we were enemies till the day I left that job.

A few years ago here in Wisconsin another fellow who has never served in the military told me he went down to Madison back when the Wisconsin ANG was flying A-10s, and bought himself a ride in the backseat of one of their Warthogs. Of course I was surprised and blurted out that the military not only doesn't sell rides in fighters but that the only 2-seat A-10 ever built was at Edwards and had been long retired from flying by the time this ride supposedly took place. He didn't get mad like the first guy, but still insisted he'd bought a backseat ride. The next day he brought in an article he'd found online and printed out that claimed the USAF had bought 25 two seat A-10s, and continued to claim he had ridden in one. I just let it drop and didn't argue with him.

Not long afterwards I was talking to one of our engineers at my work, and he mentioned his wife had been a crew chief and got a back seat ride in an A-10 when she was stationed at England AFB, Louisiana. Again I said the only 2-seater was at Edwards and hadn't flown in years. He then told me she didn't sit in a seat, but sat on the floor in the area behind the pilot's seat. When I told him that wasn't possible he got quite angry.

So why do you suppose people make up BS stories and then get so ticked off when someone holds up the BS flag? Do they really think no one will ever call them on the lies? I wonder if the people who do this have some need in their lives to be admired or noticed and telling the tall tales is the only way they feel they can fill that need? How pathetic.

Scott

I get the same thing when the F-15 is discussed, " but I read it in a book". Usually Jakes book, so check the contributors of his F-15 book.

No problem with the not believing me , I know what I saw.

Sorry no pictures as well, just memories in most cases. Did not carry a camera to work, not allowed on the flight line unless I got a permit.

I do know where I've been and what I have, and yes I have flown in the back seat of an F-15 not in bay5. I would go down to the PI for X Countries..

I have worked alert in Korea and Elmendorf, and yes it was me that did the last alert launch of an F-15 at the Det at Osan.

If you check the photos of the E Model crash at the Heath, I am in those pics as I was in Crash Recovery. One of the pics it's me standing on the left side looking at the crashed Mudhen's cockpit.

I was working weekend duty when 76-0071 and 76-0076 decided they did not like being across the ramp from each other and collided when 76 jumped chocks in burner...

I have a done allot in my career but never went Mach in an F-111, I have in an F-15......

I have been involved with aviation one way or another the past 45 years( caught the bug in kindergarten), through being a mechanic, pilot, and engineer and now production management.

Cheers

Dave Whalen "Ol Crew Dog"

Edited February 19, 2013 by Ol Crew Dog

[Ol Crew Dog]

Perhaps it's time to let this one go. I seem to recall, a loooong time ago, when the model was first released, the discussion on rec.models.scale (remember that?) started out with somebody only theorizing that those raised panels might have been BDR panels, and over the years, it got repeated to the point where they eventually were BDR panels. Sort of like the purple Nakajima Rufe. :rolleyes:/>

Ben

And the blue cowled P-51's........

[Wayne S]

I get the same thing when the F-15 is discussed, " but I read it in a book". Usually Jakes book, so check the contributors of his F-15 book.

To be honest bud, I think that is a mental note you put in your own mind.

Jakes book, does it list 'Ol Crew Dog' as a contributor? If not, how are those that you are writing about supposed to make the connection anyway? Think about it.

[Ol Crew Dog]

To be honest bud, I think that is a mental note you put in your own mind.

Jakes book, does it list 'Ol Crew Dog' as a contributor? If not, how are those that you are writing about supposed to make the connection anyway? Think about it.

Dave whalen

Most of the time I put my name, I appologize.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Ol Crew Dog

[Wayne S]

Dave whalen

Most of the time I put my name, I appologize.

LOL bud, I have known who you are for years on end now, Before this new forum was created, no need to let me personally know.

Read through your post and see if you put your name on them, Most of time, you do not. Now "Dave" Maybe now and then.

Edited February 19, 2013 by Wayne S

[Ol Crew Dog]

LOL bud, I have known who you are for years on end now, Before this new forum was created, no need to let me personally know.

Read through your post and see if you put your name on them, Most of time, you do not. Now "Dave" Maybe now and then.

Why do you torment me soo..... :)

[Wayne S]

Why do you torment me soo..... :)/>

Ha,