jungle Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 I'd like to start a discussion about what plastic modelers are using today for gloss clear coats and final sealer coats, as well as techniques for applying them. I've been modeling off and on since I was 8, ( nearly 33 years ). I'm at a place in my modeling where I need to make some changes to my standard techniques, particularly regarding clear coats. Over the last few years several products have changed or been replaced, and new and better products have been introduced. What has worked for me in the past is using Future as a gloss clear in preparation for decal application and either an oil paint or enamel wash thinned with artists' turpinoid. I've used Polyscale flat clear to achieve a dead flat finish. Polyscale Flat always worked remarkably well. Unfortunately, as many of you know, Testors bought Polyscale and changed the formula. It's not the same. For the last 3 builds I've been experimenting with different gloss and flat clears. Here's what I've learned so far… Future Floor Wax: Still works well despite that many posts from numerous boards claiming that Johnson changed the formula. I believe it's the same formula, at least here in the States. Tamiya Clear X-22: Works great. They should offer a larger bottle at a more economical price. Alcalad II Clear Coat: Works great until I apply a wash. It seems tuff however, mineral spirits, turpenoid & alcohol all eat through it. Seems only a water based wash will work? Expensive! Polyscale Clear Flat (since Testors reformulated their paint): Sucks.(meaning unusable) Testors Acryllic Clear Flat: See Polyscale above. Testors Flat Laquer: Works fine but it yellows over time. Easy to see on light colors after only 6 months. Gunze Clear Flat (Aqueous): Actually a semi-gloss sheen, long dry time and I can't find it anywhere in the States. Tamiya Clear + Tamiya Flat Base: If you are very, very accurate with your mixing ratios you can achieve a perfectly flat clear that works well. It's easy add a titch too much flat base and end up with a fog white finish. Anything less than the correct amount of flat base yields a semi-gloss finish NEW Tamiya Flat Clear : If sprayed just right, it yeilds a nice dead-flat finish. However, it's too easy to get it wrong. I'm told thinning it with Tamiya's lacquer thinner will improve its sprayability through an airbrush but have not tried this. I've learned on this forum and some figure painting forums that some modelers use Liquitex Varnishes ( High Gloss, Flat & Semigloss) and achieve excellent results. Has anyone used the Liquitex varnishes and if so what do you think of them? Please share additional methods, products you may use as well as any feedback on the products I've listed above. Maybe you've had a different experience than I with some of the products and I mentioned. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bikerider Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks for asking. I am interested in learning best methods to get a really nice flat final coat. K Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardL Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Alcalad II Clear Coat: Works great until I apply a wash. It seems tuff however, mineral spirits, turpenoid & alcohol all eat through it. Seems only a water based wash will work? Expensive! Alclad II Clear Coat is enamel based, so of course your mineral spirits and turpenoid will eat through it. Get the "Aqua" gloss clear version if you wish to use oil wash on it. Gunze Clear Flat (Aqueous): Actually a semi-gloss sheen, long dry time and I can't find it anywhere in the States. Get all your Gunze aqueous from here in the states: Gunze Aqueous Paints Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardL Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Testors Aztek new airbrushable clear gloss and clear matt are easy to use and give great results: Airbrushable Acrylic Paint Quote Link to post Share on other sites
volzj Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Vallejo Flat, it's awesome stuff. It has been my go-to since Testors screwed with Polly Scale. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 When we are talking about polyscale/testors "ruined" clear we are talking about about stuff from the bottle, airbrushed correct? Because I have used the Testors Clear Flat rattle bomb in the past and just love it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DutyCat Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I swear by Testors Lacquer clearcotes. IMO, they do not yellow. If you are talking about gloss/semi-gloss white yellowing, it is not the Testors lacquer clearcote that is yellowing, it is the varnish they put in the white paint to gloss it up. I have models in my house that are over ten years old and have not yellowed. I spray Testors lacquer clearcotes roughly 50/50 with hardware store lacquer thinner. For white, I always spray it flat, knock it down a bit with fine steel wool, then gloss it up afterwards. If you are spraying Testors clearcotes out of a rattle can, then I could see the possibility of yellowing, but thin out of an airbrush...not likely. Edited February 16, 2013 by DutyCat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Greg Long Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Why did Testors scewaround with the Polyscale Flat Clear, it was a great product when it was in the Green/White labelled bottle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Vallejo Flat, it's awesome stuff. It has been my go-to since Testors screwed with Polly Scale. I haven't tried that. I'm going to see if I can pick up a bottle from the local hobby store today. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 I swear by Testors Lacquer clearcotes. IMO, they do not yellow. If you are talking about gloss/semi-gloss white yellowing, it is not the Testors lacquer clearcote that is yellowing, it is the varnish they put in the white paint to gloss it up. I have models in my house that are over ten years old and have not yellowed. I spray Testors lacquer clearcotes roughly 50/50 with hardware store lacquer thinner. For white, I always spray it flat, knock it down a bit with fine steel, then gloss it up afterwards. If you are spraying Testors clearcotes out of a rattle can, then I could see the possibility of yellowing, but thin out of an airbrush...not likely. I use mainly Tamiya acrylic paint under the Testor's lacquer. Tamiya paint does not yellow. I use an airbrush, though I'm pretty certain the spray can and the bottle are the same thing. The lacquer clear yellows on all paint schemes I've tried it on. It shows up easiest over white paint. Maybe there is something in the air at my house? I have a friend who uses Testor's lacquers with great results. I personally don't trust the stuff. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 When we are talking about polyscale/testors "ruined" clear we are talking about about stuff from the bottle, airbrushed correct? Because I have used the Testors Clear Flat rattle bomb in the past and just love it. I was referring to the stuff in the bottle applied with an airbrush, specifically the lacquer. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Alclad II Clear Coat is enamel based, so of course your mineral spirits and turpenoid will eat through it. Get the "Aqua" gloss clear version if you wish to use oil wash on it. Get all your Gunze aqueous from here in the states: Gunze Aqueous Paints The guy at the hobby store told me Alcalad was lacquer based and that the MIG wash would work on it. He was wrong about the wash working. Everything I've been told suggests that Alcalad is lacquer based, though, it behaves like an enamel. Why do you say it is enamal based? Edited February 16, 2013 by jungle Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 16, 2013 Author Share Posted February 16, 2013 Today I am off to the art store to pick up bottles of Liquitex gloss and flat varnishes. I have high hopes for these products as they are archival quality meaning they offer UV protection and are breathable and flexible which eliminates discoloration, fading and cracking—on paintings at least. I hope they work for model aircraft as well? I'll also swing by the hobby shop and hope they have a bottle of Velejo clear flat. I'm going to conduct a little experiment and I'll post my findings on this thread. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
DutyCat Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) I use mainly Tamiya acrylic paint under the Testor's lacquer. Tamiya paint does not yellow. I use an airbrush, though I'm pretty certain the spray can and the bottle are the same thing. The lacquer clear yellows on all paint schemes I've tried it on. It shows up easiest over white paint. Maybe there is something in the air at my house? I have a friend who uses Testor's lacquers with great results. I personally don't trust the stuff. Well, I really don't know how to answer that. If you are experiencing yellowing I can't argue with you. Is it old product? Is it amber in the bottle? The newer stuff is almost clear. I just know I have been using Testors clears as I described for decades and have never experienced yellowing. Of course I do not apply it really thick....just enough to get a "decent" shine for decals, then the aforementioned thin Future barrier cote for washes, then the Testors flat for a final finish. Never had an issue doing it this way. And yes, the spray can stuff is the same. It will just go on a LOT thicker. Riskier. By way of experimentation, I have had decent results with Testor's Acryl clears. Also, a few years ago, I used some Micro-Flat on a quick build project and that worked okay. Some guys like Floquil Flat. It gives a nice, slightly satin finish. I think the biggest risk with yellowing is the gloss coat, as it has to go on much thicker than the flat coat. The flat coats are generally applied so thin that it is difficult to envision noticeable yellowing. You just need to find a system that works for you. Acrylic clears(especially gloss) might be your answer. I personally have not used any flat that gives as fine a finish as Testors, however. I generally don't like to use acrylic glosses under decals because I am afraid of the clear's reaction with decal solvent. But if you let the clear cure properly, it probably won't be an issue. Edited February 16, 2013 by DutyCat Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardL Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 (edited) Everything I've been told suggests that Alcalad is lacquer based, though, it behaves like an enamel. Why do you say it is enamal based? Because the label on the bottle in front of me says "CONTAINS Mineral Spirits": Their NM finishes are lacquer based, but not their clears. Edit: added picture Edited February 17, 2013 by RichardL Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ThatJeffGuy Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Please share additional methods, products you may use as well as any feedback on the products I've listed above. Maybe you've had a different experience than I with some of the products and I mentioned. Humbrol GlossKote Humbrol MattKote Humbrol SatinKote All thinned with mineral spirits (hardware store paint thinner). Artist oil washes thinned with turpenoid work well. The only caveat is the products have to be stirred extremely well to dissolve all material in solution or they will not dry well. No problems with yellowing but I've only been using them for 7 years Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AnthonyWan Posted February 16, 2013 Share Posted February 16, 2013 Can anyone comment on the large cans of Krylon Gloss Clear and Flat Clear? Looks like this: http://images.michaels.com/dw/staging/michaels-catalog/large/cp0408.jpg or something similar, usually available in Wal-Mart. I recall using one of these products to gloss and flat a 1/32 F-16 a while ago, and it worked pretty well. I forget if it was the lacquer or acrylic product though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Can anyone comment on the large cans of Krylon Gloss Clear and Flat Clear? Looks like this: http://images.michaels.com/dw/staging/michaels-catalog/large/cp0408.jpg or something similar, usually available in Wal-Mart. I recall using one of these products to gloss and flat a 1/32 F-16 a while ago, and it worked pretty well. I forget if it was the lacquer or acrylic product though... :rolleyes:/> I can't comment on the Krylon paints. i've never used them for modeling. That is a sweet looking Falcom though! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jungle Posted February 17, 2013 Author Share Posted February 17, 2013 Because the label on the bottle in front of me says "CONTAINS Mineral Spirits": Their NM finishes are lacquer based, but not their clears. Edit: added picture Ahhh, the next time I'll read the bottle. Guess I should share that info with the Hobby store clerk. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
madmike Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 I love Vallejo Model Colour clear flat but it is a mongrel to airbrush. The time I have used it through an airbrush, I have had to coax the whole process along and spend quite some time cleaning up the airbrush. Even thinning it under milk consistency, does not make it easy to airbrush. I have heard the Model Air version is far better. Gunze flat clear is also a great option. Used to be a devotee of Pollyscale flat but after the formula change and all those clouding issues, have yet to find the optimum replacement. I use spray cans of Testors Dullcoat for my 25mm miniatures though Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scapilot Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 For Krylon, I have used their Fusion line of Gloss and Flats with mixed results. The Fusion Flat coat straight from the can is not adviseable. It looks like straight lint all over it when finished spraying. I have attempted to decant it with again mixed results. If you decant it and allow it to gas off it thickens entirely too fast, and too much to where it becomes a mess. The Krylon Gloss does work somewhat well, although I have found that since it's lacquer and comes out at such a high rate that it can sometimes pummel a paint job giving very awkward results...especially if you've done pre or post shading. It somehow interacts with the paint to give off a 'bleed through' effect. However, it is a very good gloss finish that is hard as a rock if you're not trying to do a very fancy paint scheme. Dries in minutes, and holds up well for washes. I thought decanting the flat coat was a mess until I attempted it with this, and then I found the prime result of mess...it was like trying to airbrush Aunt Jemima syrup. Also not recommended if you have any silver or high shine paints on your plane as it pretty much turns them to a dull gray almost instantly. I know it sounds like a lot of negatives, but the point is...that they CAN work, and if you work with them from a careful distance, then they are certainly more forgiving, and if you can get a good coat on there, then you're certainly in business, and they hold up well, and cure quick. Kind of a love hate relationship, but feel free to try them out on a old kit you may have lying around, as mileage may vary between users. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardL Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Vallejo Polyurethane Matt Varnish works great for me. It's very easy to airbrush when thinned with Vallejo new airbrush thinner. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
galileo1 Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Vallejo Polyurethane Matt Varnish works great for me. It's very easy to airbrush when thinned with Vallejo new airbrush thinner. Where did you order your Vallejo Matt varnish, Richard? The ones in your pic look different than the 17ml ones I bought a couple of years ago. Thanks, Rob Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RichardL Posted February 18, 2013 Share Posted February 18, 2013 Where did you order your Vallejo Matt varnish, Richard? I got mine from Squadron: Vallejo Matt Varnish SprueBrothers also carries it: Vallejo Matt Varnish Quote Link to post Share on other sites
AnthonyWan Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 For Krylon, I have used their Fusion line of Gloss and Flats with mixed results. The Fusion Flat coat straight from the can is not adviseable. It looks like straight lint all over it when finished spraying. I have attempted to decant it with again mixed results. If you decant it and allow it to gas off it thickens entirely too fast, and too much to where it becomes a mess. The Krylon Gloss does work somewhat well, although I have found that since it's lacquer and comes out at such a high rate that it can sometimes pummel a paint job giving very awkward results...especially if you've done pre or post shading. It somehow interacts with the paint to give off a 'bleed through' effect. However, it is a very good gloss finish that is hard as a rock if you're not trying to do a very fancy paint scheme. Dries in minutes, and holds up well for washes. I thought decanting the flat coat was a mess until I attempted it with this, and then I found the prime result of mess...it was like trying to airbrush Aunt Jemima syrup. :bandhead2:/> Also not recommended if you have any silver or high shine paints on your plane as it pretty much turns them to a dull gray almost instantly. I know it sounds like a lot of negatives, but the point is...that they CAN work, and if you work with them from a careful distance, then they are certainly more forgiving, and if you can get a good coat on there, then you're certainly in business, and they hold up well, and cure quick. Kind of a love hate relationship, but feel free to try them out on a old kit you may have lying around, as mileage may vary between users. I use the Krylon Acrylic Flat and Gloss with quite favorable results...Make sure you get the product labeled "Acrylic" under the Kyrlon branding, it's pretty hard to see. Have some pics later... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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