1:72 CP-107 Argus Kit

[yvesff]

I am surprised that the Argus came out as the "most popular" choice... I seem to have missed this poll, was this on your website ? I have been building Canadian Airforce subjects for 30 years, and never "missed" building an Argus... maybe it is because I never saw one fly or that photos or references are pretty sparsed... Seems to me a good CF-100 or Tutor kit offers a much wider variety of different modelling subjects, would also be beneficial for your decal line, all in all a much better business proposition... Once you have built one Argus, you have pretty much built them all, while as there are literally dozens of different Canuck and Tutor schemes out there...

That's jsut my two cents, I wish you all the best.

YF

Edited March 13, 2013 by yvesff

[Kevan Vogler]

Once you have built one Argus, you have pretty much built them all, while as there are literally dozens of different Canuck and Tutor schemes out there...

While not as varied as the Tutor and Clunk, you'd need more than one model to get the whole Argus picture as there were two distinct marks with more than one paint and marking scheme. The aircraft served from the late 1950s RCAF to the early 1980s CAF, so there's a notable degree of variation.

Canmilair offers nine different Argus decal sheets:

http://www.canmilair.com/products.asp?cat=95

[Kevan Vogler]

Will your kit include both the Mk.I and Mk.II variants?

I know it would likely require at least different lower nose sections to do it, but it might be a good idea to offer the later, smaller chin radome as well as the larger, earlier one.

it would also put you in a position to offer more marking schemes in one package.

[ross blackford]

:D, A little off side but definitely not off topic. In the 70s when I was posted at Richmond the first time (about 1974 I think) we had a couple of Argus' vivting us to take part in the Fincastle Trophy competition. I had just arrived back on base about 2100 one Sunday night after a weekend with my parents here in Newcstle when on getting out of my car I could a piston engined aircraft idling somewhere on the base. I thought I'd listen and watch before I went inside.

After about 10 minutes idling the trottles were opened up to full and the din was incredible. I'd never heard such a noise before and wondered what it was. As the aircraft reached a point opposite where I was standing it appeared in a gap between two hangars and it was an Argus. This was the first time I'd seen or heard one as the two aircraft had arrived on the Saturday afternoon. When i got inside my roomates asked "what the heck was that thing?" It literally shook the whole base and made watching tv impossible. I'd pity anyone living in the circuit area of a base where these aircraft were regularly operated.

,

Ross.

[Flyboyf18]

Spent 6 months @ CFB Comox, west coast home of the Argus back in the day. They also had a Voodoo Sqn and I slept most nites like a baby!!

I like this idea mainly because I spent a tour on the Argus and to hear those big Wrights from inside the bird was awesome!!!

I sure hope this works!!!

Edited March 14, 2013 by Flyboyf18

[ALF18]

Interesting concept. Not sure I can buy into this at the moment though.

I'd like to put in a plug for a 1/32 Tutor kit. The Snowbirds scheme could be quite popular; I for one would love to have a decent kit of the aircraft I instructed on in MJ, in Big 2 livery. There could also be Golden Centennaires, etc - the possibilities are many. The Argus, while an impressive aircraft, doesn't turn my crank much.

ALF

[Flyboyf18]

Aw you 'jet jockies' were always jealous of the Argus!!

Probably coz we could take a break and cook a steak then go to the throne room and have a crap!!! Something that was extremely difficult to do in a jet!?!?!?

[82Whitey51]

Have you tossed this idea over at some of the other model aircraft forums? Just think it'd be a good idea to really spread the word around...perhaps even a print ad in Fine Scale or SAMI.

[Big Kohona]

This is something I'd certainly purchase once available (funding is tight for me right now). I suppose it is easy for me to say as I am not the one funding this, but I'd far rather an injection molded plastic kit over a resin one.

Have you given thought to seeing if IPMS Canada and any of their chapters would be willing to assist financially (commit to x number of kits, pre pay and then sell to their membership?). Just a thought.

Good luck, my fingers will be crossed to see this materialize.

[ALF18]

Aw you 'jet jockies' were always jealous of the Argus!! :touche:/>

Probably coz we could take a break and cook a steak then go to the throne room and have a crap!!! :whistle:/> Something that was extremely difficult to do in a jet!?!?!?

OK, now you know my secret...

I actually sat in a running Argus for 45 minutes in Comox, summer of 1979. The great beast started up, smoke billowing out unnaturally from the engines as they wheezed to life, and the idling racket went on, and on, and on,...

Luckily the thing broke down before we taxied, and our scheduled 12-hour patrol got cancelled! We hopped out, walked to the Mess and had beers and played crud all afternoon instead. I can't imagine spending hours on end in that noisy aircraft. Takes dedication!

I prefer having a short 1-hour BFM trip, going back to the hotel for a nice meal, followed by a nice dip in the pool/hot tub, chatting up the ladies (when I was single of course), and spending the hours in their company, rather than cooped up in a drafty noisy prop job - but that's just me.

ALF

[pigsty]

I'm intrigued. A 1/72 Argus sounds like a dream come true, but the detail on the proposal page is a bit thin.

First, idiot question: does $100 get you a free kit, if $200 gets you a number of free kits?

Now the important ones:

• what do you expect the kit to sell for?
• what projected market is there at that price?
• what happens if the cost of development goes up? In particular, what if not enough extra funding came through and you had to give up part-way through?
• what if the kit is finished but the sales don't come?
• you mention a resin kit as an alternative. Would investors get that instead of an injection-moulded one, even though the unit price would probably be higher?
• does the free kit deal apply everywhere or just in Canada?

Given time I can probably come up with more questions, but those'll do to be going on with!

[Learstang]

This is a great idea, and about time someone thought of doing an injection-moulded Argus! Good luck with the project - I'm supposed to be getting an advance for a book on the Shturmovik (not the modelling guide I've been working on for ages, but an historical book). Once I get that, I definitely will give a donation to this worthy cause. Now if only you'd think about doing a new-mould Shackleton (I know it's not Canadian, but it never hurts to ask)!

Best Regards,

Jason

[Scooby]

Interesting concept. Not sure I can buy into this at the moment though.

I'd like to put in a plug for a 1/32 Tutor kit. The Snowbirds scheme could be quite popular; I for one would love to have a decent kit of the aircraft I instructed on in MJ, in Big 2 livery. There could also be Golden Centennaires, etc - the possibilities are many. The Argus, while an impressive aircraft, doesn't turn my crank much.

ALF

I buggeg you know who for a 1/32 Tutor. I am sure you know who is involved with this kit.

The CFI at the Namao Flying Club when I was learning to fly was a retired Argus pilot.

[RiderFan]

Hi there.

As per the 'perks' descriptions, the free kits are for the $200 only. And in theory, it would be for any injection kit that I release. This assumes that the Argus isn't the only one.

[*]what do you expect the kit to sell for?

I'm currently expecting it to go for between $50 and $60. This would be in line with other kits of similar size like the C-130 or P-3 Orion kits.

[*]what happens if the cost of development goes up? In particular, what if not enough extra funding came through and you had to give up part-way through?

The business arrangement takes care of that. It's a flat fee for the work. If not enough funding comes through, then project doesn't start anyway.

[*]what if the kit is finished but the sales don't come?

Then I end up with a lot of boxes of kits.

[*]you mention a resin kit as an alternative. Would investors get that instead of an injection-moulded one, even though the unit price would probably be higher?

The two projects are completely independent of each other. You're not investing in a resin kit.

[*]does the free kit deal apply everywhere or just in Canada?

Anyone who invests $200 or more.

thanks

David

Edited March 16, 2013 by RiderFan

[Tom]

One additional item that would help is that if anyone is aware of really good multiview drawings that would be a good start too.

I have a large poster sized set of drawings, and while they look to be pretty spot on, they're not from original Canadiar drawings. I've contacted Bombardier (which purchased Canadair back in the 80s) to see if they have drawings they could share, but so far no word from them. So if anyone has any tucked away in a back closet or attic someplace, and would like to make copies for me, that would also be a great help too.

Thanks

David

David,

You can also try contacting the National Air Force Museum of Canada at 8 Wing CFB Trenton. I know they have a bunch of engineering (maintenance) books on the Argus because I have had a look through them. Who knows, you might get lucky. Probably best to try and get in touch with their Curator.

Cheers,

Tom

[phantom]

In addition to references they still have one.......

Its seen better days........

[RiderFan]

Hi there.

Yeah, I think I have about 200 photos of that one in Trenton. It's good to be able to get up close and personal with the ones outside.

[KursadA]

First of all, congratulations - it was about time someone pioneered the use of crowdfunding sites for scale modeling. Other modeling communities have done this successfully (see this for example), and I've been planning a similar project for a while (mine is still in its early stages, though). I hope this first (to my knowledge anyway) scale aircraft modeling crowdfunding project results in a new kit; and others can follow your lead.

If I may have a suggestion for your project: can you consider adding smaller contribution levels and perks for those of us like myself who may not necessarily be interested in a CP-107 kit, but want to support your project anyway? While I have no doubt that a CP-107 was an important aircraft and might be very interesting to Canadian modelers, its appeal outside Canada may be somewhat limited. On the other hand, using crowdfunding to launch a kit brand is a great initiative and many, many more people will be willing to chip in a smaller amount to support it; even without getting any kit in return. I'm sure you will get a lot of $10-$50 contributions from fellow ARC members who would like to support the use of a brand new concept for funding hobby projects; and these will add up. Contributors at these levels will obviously not get a kit, but they might get a small token of recognition of their support. You might be familiar with the book "The Kickstarter Handbook" from your previous crowdfunding experiences, it has some informative sections about how these contribution levels can be planned.

Good luck! Folks, I think this is big and I would highly encourage everyone interested in the subject to support it.

Edited March 17, 2013 by KursadA

[pigsty]

Thanks for those answers. Unfortunately, they lead to more questions.

As per the 'perks' descriptions, the free kits are for the $200 only

In that case, if I were to offer less than $200, what would I get in return? Would I have to buy a kit even though I might already have given enough to pay for it twice over? Or would I get a share of the proceeds?

It's a flat fee for the work. If not enough funding comes through, then project doesn't start anyway

That's not what I asked. Development costs commonly rise as projects move along. I can't see a way in which you could start development without spending money, so if you run out part-way through, where does everyone's money go?

Then I end up with a lot of boxes of kits

And your investors? You've possibly got a lot of other people's money at stake - what about their interests?

The two projects are completely independent of each other. You're not investing in a resin kit

You originally said If this goal isn't reached then I will look into other options to produce the kit (such as resin), but an injection kit should be the goal. This implies that if this much is raised the kit will be injected, whereas if only that much is raised it will be resin. Or are you saying that you'd return everyone's money and start again - with another crowd-funding proposal?

Edited March 18, 2013 by pigsty

[RiderFan]

In that case, if I were to offer less than $200, what would I get in return? Would I have to buy a kit even though I might already have given enough to pay for it twice over? Or would I get a share of the proceeds?

Yes, at that level, you'd still have to buy the model even if you donated money. Crowd funding isn't an investment for the contributors to make money off of. It's to get projects/products they're interested in off the ground. You would not be getting a share of any proceeds or purchasing any interests in my company.

As per the description on the donation page, the $100 is a thank-you note on the list of contributors in the packaging. Think of it as getting your name on the credits screen.

That's not what I asked. Development costs commonly rise as projects move along. I can't see a way in which you could start development without spending money, so if you run out part-way through, where does everyone's money go?

I've already invested a good chunk of my own money into this project. As I said above, the cost of the project if fixed. We've agreed to a total cost of the project and included buffer costs. I've managed a lot of projects in my time and understand how to build a fixed price contract.

And your investors? You've possibly got a lot of other people's money at stake - what about their interests?

Quite simply, there are no investors. Nobody contributing should expect anything in return other than what is indicated on the donation page. Their 'interest' was to have a kit produced, if in the event I end up with a warehouse full of unsold kits, those contributing have had their one interest addressed but the fact the kits exist in the first place.

You originally said If this goal isn't reached then I will look into other options to produce the kit (such as resin), but an injection kit should be the goal. This implies that if this much is raised the kit will be injected, whereas if only that much is raised it will be resin. Or are you saying that you'd return everyone's money and start again - with another crowd-funding proposal?

Please read the donation page and my first post here. No ones money is at stake. That's not how Fixed Funding crowd funding works (which is what this is as stated on the donation page). If the goal isn't reached everyone gets their money back, I don't see a dime, there's no injection kit, and I'll look at other alternatives. There's no implication there at all. There have already been donations and I don't have access to that money. As stated, it sits in escrow until the required amount is reached. Again, there's no risk to anyone that donates. That's part of the point.

It even clearly states just that on the donation page: "This campaign will only receive funds if at least C$100,000 is raised by Tue 30 Apr 11:59PM PT." There's no money for me to return because I don't get any if the goal is not reached.

The only person that with any risk at this point is me because I've spent money I can't get back.

I believe you're confusing 'donation' with 'investment'. There are no investors. You're not investing. Investing implies you're seeking a financial gain from the project. No one contributing will make money off this. You're simply helping a project get started and you get a token of thank-you in return.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowd_funding

I've used crowd funding very successfully for multiple other projects. I recently used crowd sourcing to fund the development of a free to play video game. This was a game that people didn't have to pay for in the first place, but to get its development funded we used crowd sourcing and we were very successful in raising the money (we're talking millions of dollars) required to do that. The only thing the contributors received in return was the ability to play the (free game) before non-contributors did. These were not $10 or $15 contributions either. In fact the highest contribution level (a couple of hundred dollars) account for about 80% of the raised funding. We had some folks make multiple donations (equaling over $2000) to get the project off the ground so they could play a free game.

Hopefully that answers some questions.

Thanks

David

Edited March 18, 2013 by RiderFan

[RiderFan]

can you consider adding smaller contribution levels and perks for those of us like myself who may not necessarily be interested in a CP-107 kit, but want to support your project anyway?[/b][/i] While I have no doubt that a CP-107 was an important aircraft and might be very interesting to Canadian modelers, its appeal outside Canada may be somewhat limited. On the other hand, using crowdfunding to launch a kit brand is a great initiative and many, many more people will be willing to chip in a smaller amount to support it; even without getting any kit in return. I'm sure you will get a lot of $10-$50 contributions from fellow ARC members who would like to support the use of a brand new concept for funding hobby projects; and these will add up. Contributors at these levels will obviously not get a kit, but they might get a small token of recognition of their support. You might be familiar with the book "The Kickstarter Handbook" from your previous crowdfunding experiences, it has some informative sections about how these contribution levels can be planned.

Good luck! Folks, I think this is big and I would highly encourage everyone interested in the subject to support it.

That's a good suggestion. I've added $25 and $50 options too. Donations less than that, although appreciated, wouldn't help much because I'd need hundreds of thousands of them.

I'm not sure this is the first time crowd funding has been used in the model industry. Maybe the first time it's been used in such a formal way, but I'm pretty sure that other projects have been funded via donations. Certainly that guy with the little figures did a good job. I could produce a lot of nice kits with a million dollars worth of donations.

thanks

David

[KursadA]

I just made my small contribution. I am not really interested in the CP-107; but this is an initiative that deserves support. Good luck!

[ian_maw]

I'm not sure who holds the keys to the Argus in Summerside. But I do remember there was a complete set of CFTOs on board when we hauled the aircraft in for repaint. Including the book of drawings showing how to paint every aircraft in the CF inventory during the symetrical period (right down to the smallest stencil). Shame the refinishers seemed to ignore much of what was in the book, As I see the guys in Trenton did too.

Worth tracking down the society that looks after 10739 now, and if you can get a hold of that painting guide, maybe we could get it copied for sale, and raise all kinds of money.

(As I hit send, and miraculously bump this to the top again)

[Big Kohona]

I am curious as to how much door knocking you have done yourself (aside from a post on the ARC)? What portion of the cost are you contributing?

Where I think the idea of an injection molded 1/72 Argus is great, if you are hoping that this crowd funding thing will carry you to the goal line or even remotely close, you will be sadly mistaken. Why not see if you can sell this idea fully to Mr. Kinetic and get him to foot the lions share, giving him the rights most of the profits? You could take a percentage for doing the research and contribute what you can financially. Take that money and build on it until you get yourself into the position to fund a project 100% yourself (like that 1/72 CF-100 idea that was bounced around...).

This crowd funding thing was bounced around several years ago by a now defunct company called Pro Scale. They wanted to produce a 1/72 RCAF Buffalo (IMS) and they did not suceed. They even remarketed a couple of Heller kits under their label, you will see them from time to time on eBay and elsewhere - 2 different offerings of a boxed sets of 3 Heller T-33s, 2 Canadian and 1 US markings and also the 707 with Canadian markings.

Again, a great idea, just never flew... which was too bad.

Your work is cut out for you, just invest in a good pair of shoes for all the walking and door knocking that is to come if this is to really happen. Good luck to you.

[pigsty]

Hopefully that answers some questions.

It does, thank you. I think, to sum up, it looks like this: lots of people hopefully give you money, you develop a kit, many (possibly most) of those people then have to buy the kit off you as well, and if there's any profit you keep it. Meanwhile my kit could cost me up to $200. It all seems a bit one-way.

I can see how this works for, I don't know, helping someone estabish a career in the arts. But I'm not seeing much of an attraction in the world of modelling. The difference is that, with the arts, I'm not expecting the result to be a discreet item that can be sold commercially. Sorry, but I don't want an Argus enough to pay that sort of money, and the warm feeling from knowing it's on the market won't impress the bank manager.

I do wish you luck, though.

Edited March 19, 2013 by pigsty