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Lunar Module airframe


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Awesome site there John! Thanks for posting. I'll definately bookmark it and I've already downloaded the LM .pdf's for future use. Keep up the great work! Even if I'll never attempt as detailed a build as yours, it's becoming a better reference resource than some of the other stuff out there on the real LM's.

Bill

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That is most flattering Bill and thank you for such kind remarks but I do want to emphasise that there will be,sadly, quite a bit of guess work. For example : I cemented the aft bulkhead into place this afternoon in order that I can get the canted beams and engine enclosure accurately placed, but despite searching the web/book/films/utube etc for months I have NEVER come across a pic of the forward face of the aft bulkhead so this will have to be guessed at re placement of the stringers, beams and so on......Unless of course any of you guys know of a reference pic for me..... engineering information still seems very much a problem.

Have also been gathering materials for Mercury, Gemini and Apollo CM and Shuttle for some time with view to building their airframes in the future ( if I live that long ). Mercury is fairly OK as the maintenance manual is on line overstamped 'secret', bless 'em - cold war was at its height of course. Apollo CM is not too bad but still big gaps and Shuttle much better , but Gemini.......just 2 grainy pics of the craft with the shingles off is all I have discovered thus far. Just shows how quickly this material can seem to vanish or get buried. It must be out there somewhere, a stash of photos stuffed in a desk drawer perhaps and so never published.

With ref to the LM again : when Grumman won the contract Kelly was told to film everything and clips are on the excellent Moon Machines DVD, but where is the rest ? Spacecraft films say they are gathering material for a DVD but nowt as yet.

But hey......not all doom and gloom......the generosity of NASA. In 1971 when my first scratchbuilt LM build based on the Revell kit collapsed under its own weight ! they posted me a complete Apollo operations manual (its now been on line some time ) and Grumman sent me their beautiful 'book' of transparent overlays both gratis and both of which I am still using all these years later l ...... The covering letter from NASA was signed Stella Luna, Secretary, Public Relations Office Houston - how sweet is that ......... early days I guess then and no financial constraints.

Perhaps Orion will fare better. Hope so.

Thanks again

Cheers,

John

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When you say aft bulkhead, I assume you mean the construction of it before all the components are added to it? I have some pics I've scrounged of the aft bulkhead but they all have the netting and other features already in place so I suspect it's not what you're looking for. I can post what I have if you think they would help.

Bill

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Really appreciated Bill and many thanks. Do please post the pics . Every little helps. Pics are always useful and part of the arsenal of information. As I mentioned earlier I may fit out the cabin in part - still not sure. Do fancy getting some of the piping and cable harnesses in perhaps. However... Its the part of the aft bulkhead that is outside the pressurised cabin and facing forward that is the problem. Think it will have to be a guessing job sadly....but still fun.

Best regards

John

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Ahhh, gotcha. I figured we weren't talking about the same thing. Everything I have is easily found pics of the interior and I'm sure you wouldn't have had problems locating them. Wish I could help with the others. I have a brother that works at Nasa for U.S.A. and he can't even seem to find some of the stuff that modelers would want. Seems like sometimes the workers have harder time finding stuff then us normal citizens. I guess it's part of their "security". Anyway, if I find anything useful I'll let you know.

Bill

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Thanks for that Bill, much appreciated.

If your Bro' at NASA has probs what chance do us ordinary mortals have...........

Have the cant beams on the LM going in at the moment. The photo evidence does suggest that on the forward face of the aft bulkhead it is probably just rivets that have come through from the stiffener installation that supports the rack assembly so that is the way I will go.....makes structural sense.

Cheers

John

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... despite searching the web/book/films/utube etc for months I have NEVER come across a pic of the forward face of the aft bulkhead so this will have to be guessed at re placement of the stringers, beams and so on......

There is an engineering mockup of the ascent stage at the Cosmosphere, I have a few pics showing portions of the aft bulkhead. In the mockup the aft bulkhead is mostly hidden by the lowered docking hatch.

Note their mockup is an early one so I don't know if it is representative of the later version, for instance the EVA door is still round.

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Hi there Habu2

Thanks so much for these fantastic pics. Aint it just sooooo beautiful........... three dimensional art.............form following function.........and built with slide rules too. May I have permission to copy them to my LM file ? What a resource.......

Have not visited the Cosmoshpere, clearly I must at some time. Have seen the LM in the Smithsonian but IMHO it is poorly displayed and gives no idea of the engineering. Financial constraints I guess.

Wonder which LTA this is. Clearly very early on with the round forward hatch, but the basic overall structure appears very much like the LT4 I think.

Thanks again. Really appreciated

Time to add some more rivet overlays !

Best wishes

John

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Great pictures, very cool.

I just realized something while looking at these ... about the round hatches. I've always wondered why there was a flat area on the docking tunnel hatch. It's not totally round. I was thinking it was maybe about clearances or something to that effect. But looking at the forward round egress hatch, the bottom is flat! Could that be why the docking hatch is that way too? I can see building the hatch to one specification as saving time ... what with the whole "getting to the moon before the decade is out." thing.

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Something I've always wondered and probably should know by now, but when they dock with the CSM and open the upper hatch, what do they do with the cone shaped piece that's used to help guide the docking probe into place? I assume they have to store it somewhere but I've never seen that piece in any pics by itself. Also when on the moon and the time when they opened the upper hatch, I assume they had to remove it and put it back in place as well. The whole docking/hatch area intriques me. I'd love to see a computer animated video of how all that works.

Bill

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Something I've always wondered and probably should know by now, but when they dock with the CSM and open the upper hatch, what do they do with the cone shaped piece that's used to help guide the docking probe into place?

It is removed and stored in the CM - no need to carry all that weight down to the lunar surface and back up.

Edited by habu2
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Note their mockup is an early one so I don't know if it is representative of the later version, for instance the EVA door is still round.

According to this site the ascent stage in my photos is LTA-3A, a Grumman stress test article.

Edited by habu2
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and the hatch was changed from round to rectangle because the astronauts could not ingress/egress with their PLSS on. Round probably chosen first because it is structurally a stronger design....rectangles are so much weaker. This fundamental bought down the Comet in 1952?.....rectangular windows...they cracked at the corners.

And thanks Habu2 LTA3 ...very early but is basically there.

John

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Hi j-love

Many thanks........Great pics and another LTA....neat stuff indeed. Clearly, in my so called 'reasearches' , I must have been sleep walking ( or do I mean clicking ) half the time.

Cheers

John

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To satiate my curiosity ... I searched and found this:

Integrated RCSlAPS PA-1 Test Program

The PA-1 test rig was a flight-weight ascent-stage structure with only the RCS

and APS installed. It was built principally for development testing of the APS, and the

RCS was included primarily for evaluating the interconnect-propellant-feed mode.

The configuration of the PA-1 RCS was similar to that of test rig HR-3P and flight

vehicle LM-1 except that solenoid valves were installed between the propellant tanks

and the helium module to prevent migration of propellant vapors into the regulators and

check valves during extended downtimes. Also, additional feedline access ports were

installed between the cluster isolation valves and the engines to aid in draining

propellant.

All testing was conducted at the NASA White Sands Test Facility (WSTF) during

September and October 1966. A series of 11 runs was made under the altitude conditions

(88 000 to 140 000 feet) attainable with the WSTF vacuum pumping system. Approximately

3000 firings and 515 seconds of firing time were accumulated on 12 engines;

the four upfiring engines were disabled to prevent possible injector-manifold explosions,

which could occur at the relatively high test-cell pressure. The high test-cell pressure

was not a realistic simulation of space vacuum.

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Then what do they use to re-dock with the ascent stage if that part is on the CM?

Doh, I think my statement may have been in error. :bandhead2: I've seen mission photos of the docking mechanism inside the CM but, now that I think about it, those must have been taken when the CM & LM were docked.

I was just watching "When We Left Earth" (the Discovery DVD set) to see if I could see the docking cone and, to my disappointment, ALL of the footage of the LM shot from the CM (A9, A10, A11, A12 & A14) is REVERSED !!! The "bonus" segments (produced by NASA) of A9 & A13 showing the LM are correct but all the CM to LM shots produced by Discovery were reversed... :(/>/>

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Morning Folks,

Thanks for that j-love ...fascinating stuff. Have you read Kelly's Moonlander ?

Am sure I have seen film of the docking mechanism being demonstrated somewhere habu2...Moon Machines DVD ? or maybe a Utube clip I did not bookmark. THe link I gave http://www.hq.nasa.g...tem_pp87-92.pdf is pretty comprehensive as a description though.

Cheers

John

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Such a terrific exchange of info! Thanx!

I agree with you John ... I've seen video of the removal and stowage of the probe and drogue, and just recently on YouTube or Spacecraft Films ... but I don't recall which one. Moon Machines, maybe on the episode regarding the CM design ...

And I read Moon Lander just a week and a half ago. I hafta say I was disappointed. Too much organizational stuff and not enuff about the actual design and engineering of the various phases of the construction of the LM. I would have loved to read, even just one chapter, where it detailed the decisions, design and material, that went into this unique craft. I did, however, enjoy the read.

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Morning Pete,

I understand what you mean about Moonlander but beside the actual engineering I do find all the politicking fascinating...getting the creative ideas through the maze of decision making necessary in a company to the drawing board as it were and the problem solving of actual manufacture......Watched the excellent drama doc' on the Challenger disaster last Monday and await ' Truth Lies and O rings " by McDonald and Hansen from Amazon with interest. Should have read this a lot earlier I am sure

Cheers

John

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