Gripen NG

[TaiidanTomcat]

The Swiss Parliament’s Defense Committee has voted to suspend the purchase of 22 Saab AB (SAABB) Gripen aircraft, asking the government for additional information.

“We are putting the Gripen deal on hold until some important questions are answered and the definitive agreement is available,” Beat Flach, a lawmaker for the Green Liberal party and member of the committee, said on his Twitter Inc. feed today. A spokeswoman for the Defense Ministry confirmed the outcome of the vote, declining to comment further.

Switzerland plans to spend about 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.3 billion) on the planes made by Saab, based in Linkoeping south of Stockholm, to replace aging Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC) F-5 Tigers. Today’s vote is the second parliamentary setback for the acquisition, after the upper house last month failed to approve funding.

The purchase is controversial because it requires spending cuts in other areas, as a balanced budget is enshrined in Switzerland’s constitution. The Gripen deal may also face a national referendum.

European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. has written a letter to parliament offering to supply Switzerland with Eurofighters for 1.5 billion francs, Blick newspaper reported today, without saying where it got the information. That follows a similar overture by Dassault Aviation SA (AM) in January, according to Sonntagszeitung. Both companies lost to Saab in the initial bidding.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-04-09/swiss-parliament-committee-votes-to-suspend-gripen-jet-purchase.html

Edited April 10, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[Kei Lau]

Switzerland plans to spend about 3.1 billion Swiss francs ($3.3 billion) on the planes made by Saab, based in Linkoeping south of Stockholm, to replace aging Northrop Grumman Corp. (NOC) F-5 Tigers.

European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. has written a letter to parliament offering to supply Switzerland with Eurofighters for 1.5 billion francs.

Eurofighter at half the cost of Gripen NG? It may be in the TGTBT department.

[-Neu-]

Well everything that Saab has said has been in the TGTBT department. In its 2010 testimony to Canadian parliamentary defence committee, Saab offered several specifics on its program, they included a confirmed delivery date of 2016, a per unit cost of $55 million and an operational cost of $5000 dollars per hour. None of those are true. Saab themselves now promise a delivery date of 2018, per unit cost of $80 million and an operational cost of $10,000 dollars per hour. Yet as the Swiss discovered, their purchase cost is approximately 105 million, operational cost of over 20,000 and possibly a delivery date of 2020.

Eurofighter might be no better. Its per unit is $105~115, with a operational cost well above 20K per hour... likely 30k or more. Moreover the Swiss AF found the Eurofighter surprisingly ineffective at a number of key roles, and were not very happy with its overall peformance. Instead they wanted the Rafale.

Edited April 11, 2013 by -Neu-

[Paolo Maglio]

Eurofighter is offering second hand not-upgrated machines.

[-Neu-]

Let me guess... the Tranche 1 aircraft that the RAF wants to dispose of?

Edited April 11, 2013 by -Neu-

[Paolo Maglio]

Let me guess... the Tranche 1 aircraft that the RAF wants to dispose of?

Spain and Germany also want to sell some from Tranche 1.

[TaiidanTomcat]

eurofighter fire sale!

[TaiidanTomcat]

As made public on February 15 2013, the other parts of the agreement with FMV includes: possible orders of modification of 60 Gripen C to Gripen E to Sweden with first deliveries to Sweden in 2018; mission-specific equipment and support and maintenance for Gripen E to Sweden with initial deliveries in 2018, and; delivery of 22 brand new Gripen E, and related equipment to Switzerland, if the country decides to acquire Gripen E.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Saab/Newsroom/Press-releases--News/2013---3/Saab-receives-second-development-order-for-Gripen-E-from-FMV/

So Swede Gripen Es are rebuilds?

[Kei Lau]

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Saab/Newsroom/Press-releases--News/2013---3/Saab-receives-second-development-order-for-Gripen-E-from-FMV/

So Swede Gripen Es are rebuilds?

No, the article said it differently.

SAAB will complete development of the Gripen E and build 22 for Swiden and 24 for Swiss. They are brand new development aircrafts. And the designation changes from C to E.

The agreement includes "possible orders of modification of 60 Gripen C to Gripen E to Sweden with first deliveries to Sweden in 2018". It seems to indicate the detailed scope of the upgrade and cost are yet to be negoiated. It did not mention whether the upgrade includes airfram SLAP or avionics and software of the E only. That's only for the Swedish Gripen C.

The USAF, USN and their foreign sales customers does similar upgrade to their older types all the time. Boeing just completed several upgrade contracts for the Australian, Finland, Swiss and Malaysia to upgrade their early F/A-18A/B models with the electronic and weapon suits of the F/A-18C/D. Canada did not do it probably because their airframes are older and scheduled for earlier retirement. (Just guessing about the Canadian.)

[Emvar]

The USAF, USN and their foreign sales customers does similar upgrade to their older types all the time. Boeing just completed several upgrade contracts for the Australian, Finland, Swiss and Malaysia to upgrade their early F/A-18A/B models with the electronic and weapon suits of the F/A-18C/D. Canada did not do it probably because their airframes are older and scheduled for earlier retirement. (Just guessing about the Canadian.)

Actually, Finland/Swiss/Malaysia already operate F-18C/D models they never had the earlier A/B. Australia and Canada have Upgraded their A/B models to C standards. I know the total aircraft upgraded by the RCAF was 80.... we have lost a couple since. I am not sure about the Australian numbers though. I think Spain and Kuwait also operate the C/D and I have no information about those aircraft.

Emil

[TaiidanTomcat]

No, the article said it differently.

FTFA

The agreement with FMV on Gripen E, that was made public on February 15 2013, includes the development and modification of Gripen E for Sweden during the period 2013-2026 as well as a possible order for new production of Gripen E for Switzerland.

?

SAAB will complete development of the Gripen E and build 22 for Swiden and 24 for Swiss. They are brand new development aircrafts. And the designation changes from C to E.

I don't see how they can. The Gripen E is supposed to have new intakes, more internal fuel etc. Here is SAABs 2012 PDF

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Documents%20and%20Images/About%20Saab/Events/Farnborough%202012/Gripen%20presentation%20Farnborough.pdf

It explains that a modified C/D would be called C/D+. I have no idea how you would turn a C into an E without big alterations, unless a Gripen E what was previously a C/D+? I also heard that Sweden was only ordering 60 NGs so when I saw this I assumed the 60 Cs to Es were that 60?

The agreement includes "possible orders of modification of 60 Gripen C to Gripen E to Sweden with first deliveries to Sweden in 2018". It seems to indicate the detailed scope of the upgrade and cost are yet to be negoiated. It did not mention whether the upgrade includes airfram SLAP or avionics and software of the E only. That's only for the Swedish Gripen C.

I guess this is where I am confused.

The USAF, USN and their foreign sales customers does similar upgrade to their older types all the time. Boeing just completed several upgrade contracts for the Australian, Finland, Swiss and Malaysia to upgrade their early F/A-18A/B models with the electronic and weapon suits of the F/A-18C/D. Canada did not do it probably because their airframes are older and scheduled for earlier retirement. (Just guessing about the Canadian.)

but these aren't airframe updates, to my knowledge no one has updated an F-16 or F-18A-D to carry another 4000 pounds of fuel. In order to that it took a whole new airplane F-18E/F. Gripen Es will take airframe modifications. new landing gear, etc.

??

[TaiidanTomcat]

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Saab/Newsroom/Press-releases--News/2014---5/Result-in-Swiss-referendum-announced/#.U3mgePldUSU

Further to the decisions by the Swiss Parliament in 2013 to procure 22 Gripen E, a national referendum was held today in Switzerland on the funding law for Gripen. The result was ‘no’ which means that the Gripen E procurement process in Switzerland stops. For Saab, the Gripen E programme continues according to plan, with development and production of 60 Gripen E for Sweden ongoing and deliveries scheduled for 2018.

[Ruud]

Spain was one of the three none US F-18A/B customers. They bought some ex-USN Hornets later on and now fly F-18A/B+ Kuwait, Malaysia, Finland, and the Swiss went straight to the C/Ds (only D for Malaysia).

Everyone is finding out new planes (even smaller ones like the Gripen) are very expensive to buy and keep flying. Austria is having financial issues with their Eurofighter force too.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eurofighter-set-for-rough-ride-in-austria-updated-02701/

[TaiidanTomcat]

Spain was one of the three none US F-18A/B customers. They bought some ex-USN Hornets later on and now fly F-18A/B+ Kuwait, Malaysia, Finland, and the Swiss went straight to the C/Ds (only D for Malaysia).

Everyone is finding out new planes (even smaller ones like the Gripen) are very expensive to buy and keep flying. Austria is having financial issues with their Eurofighter force too.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/eurofighter-set-for-rough-ride-in-austria-updated-02701/

FTFA:

[Aigore]

FTFA:

Dey fly 'em on myrrh?!

[Julien (UK)]

I have seen a figure of £88,000 per hour mentioned for the RAF Typhoon.

Julien

[Aigore]

I have seen a figure of £88,000 per hour mentioned for the RAF Typhoon.

Julien

Wut?!

Now there must be some really odd way to calculate cost/flight hour to reach those numbers.....you count with appreciation, milage and stuff or what? you don´t have to take the pilot and the ground crews mortages into it as well?

[Berkut]

I have seen a figure of £88,000 per hour mentioned for the RAF Typhoon.

Julien

That sounds like non sense tbh. Rafale's costs are around 10 000 euro.

Edited June 29, 2014 by Berkut

[-Neu-]

That sounds like non sense tbh. Rafale's costs are around 10 000 euro.

Its a higher number than suggested by others, but its pretty well known in defence circles that the Eurofighter's operational costs are by far the highest among major fighters available. The problem with Eurofighter is that spare parts are difficult to obtain and costly due to low commonality between any particular version (both between tranches, and different national versions.) It is also not a cheap aircraft to operate, as a twin-engined high speed point defence interceptor.

The difficulty is in creating an objective standard for assessing a fighter in a single environment. I'd suggest the numbers stated by the French Government has quite different assumptions than other nations. The RCAF and USAF would love to have a CPFH for the C-130 at $12000.... with the exception of some very low usage Reserve units, USAF the average is around 15,000~30,000K. Other nations, like Canada have higher costs, due to lower fleet size and lack of economies of scale.

There was an attempt by the RCAF to do this between 2006 and 2011. Their assessments suggested the Eurofighter would be in the 25~30+K range, the Rafale would be in 23~27,000, F-35 and F/A-18E would be around 20~25,000k.

[Johnopfor]

I guess that the Brazilians can expect to get thier's a little earlier.......

[ThePhantomTwo]

Low usage Reserve units?Given operational and training requirements,there is no such animal,or they would no longer be a flying unit due to not being able to keep aircrews qualified or meet mobilization requirements.

[-Neu-]

Sorry, let me rephrase that because it was unclear and imprecise. "low useage" was a relative comparison between the Reserve and Active duty units. All but one reserve unit have a total of 7,000 hours, but only eight (around 5,000 hours) are below $15,000 CPFH. All Active duty units are between 5,000 and 35,000 hours annually.

Allied militaries like Canada rely heavily on the C-130 to conduct domestic and foreign operations. Smaller fleet means and high demands are means high operational tempo and greater aircraft usage, so we go through them faster. We had the most heavily used C-130 fleet in the world: Almost all our Es reach 50,000+ hours and are retired due to fatigue. Our H fleet isn't that far behind. I know the french, with their very active operations in Africa also rely heavily on the hercs, so I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't far behind.

[Ruud]

unless they are expecting to use their World Cup ticket income to by them... Those stadiums have not been very full.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Since there was a lot of Eurofighter talk in this thread, I thought I would put this here:

BERLIN — A manufacturing fault has been discovered in the Eurofighter Typhoon warplanes, Germany said Tuesday, announcing it was suspending deliveries of the sophisticated jets.

The news was another blow to the troubled and costly Eurofighter program — and raised concerns over the use of the planes.

According to Germany’s defence ministry, the defect discovered was in the rear fuselage of the twin-engine multi-role fighter.

As a result, Berlin has decided to cut the time its Eurofighters spend in the air each year in half, from 3,000 hours to 1,500 hours.

The news website Spiegel Online reported that, in the worst case scenario, the fault could result in the plane’s hull becoming unstable.

It said Britain’s Royal Air Force first detected the defect and also decided to halve the annual flight hours so as not to overstress the jets.

Germany and Britain each have more than 100 of the Eurofighter Typhoons in service. Spiegel said Germany’s air force operates 109 of the jets.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140930/DEFREG01/309300045/Germany-Eurofighter-Has-Manufacturing-Fault

Serious costly troubles for the expensive, costly program

[11bee]

Since there was a lot of Eurofighter talk in this thread, I thought I would put this here:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20140930/DEFREG01/309300045/Germany-Eurofighter-Has-Manufacturing-Fault

Serious costly troubles for the expensive, costly program

Wow, that's a pretty serious defect if they are putting those limits on flight hours. Wonder if there is any relation to that recent crash?