Maker Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 No one is "given" rights in this country by the government, they are merely codified and secured by things like the Constitution and the rule of law, against abuse by the government. The public safety exemption for Miranda is just more BS, when even law enforcement believes this is over. Everyone should be very disturbed that the usual suspects like Lindsay Graham and John McCain say he should be held as an enemy combatant! An enemy combatant seems to require we first be at war (which we are not), and a non-citizen. Please don't even go there using the amorphous concept of being at war with a verb, like the "war on terror". We will have sunk to a new low, and destroyed our own rules of law in the name of false security if this suspect disappears to Gitmo or the like. As heinous as what the crimes he and his brother likely committed are,we are going down a very slippery slope, driven by visceral reaction, rather than one governed by the rule of law, that we are supposed to live under. I'm afraid that when US senators start calling US citizens enemy combatants, the "terrorists" have already won. Maybe tomorrow the feds will decide that something you say or do, something you own, what you read, websites you visit, or a group you are affiliated with makes you an enemy combatant. Be careful what you wish for... Allow the state and local authorities to do their jobs, within the LAW as it exists. When Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building on Oklahoma City (a far more devastating blast) investigators and prosecutors did their work, got a conviction and appropriate sentence was delivered. The system worked. Let's not be an utter embarrassment to ourselves and our history by doing otherwise. +1, so long as they maintain that this was a federal not state crime since Massachusetts has no death penalty. Link to post Share on other sites
jpk Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Well said. :thumbsup:/> I agree..... Link to post Share on other sites
Dave Williams Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I've heard they've already started by locking the TV in his hospital room on CNN. I'm thinking Honey Boo Boo in an endless loop. Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne S Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 I would rather they keep quiet until they were sure, it was knee jerk rumors constantly, that rarely proved true. the news isn't supposed to be another chaotic voice, its supposed to throw water on a fire, not gasoline. I hated the stories that featured marathon finishers "not being able to enjoy their race" and other incredibly stupid wastes of oxygen Right up there with "he could be dead or alive" that I heard on TV also "identified or unidentified" easy there, you information portals, you. don't give me everything at once. I was writing of that specific day/night with the on scene coverage. Link to post Share on other sites
Wayne S Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 (edited) No one is "given" rights in this country by the government.What is Naturalization to you and who gives Naturalization to those who are not Us Citizens Everyone should be very disturbed that the usual suspects like Lindsay Graham and John McCain say he should be held as an enemy combatant! An enemy combatant seems to require we first be at war (which we are not), and a non-citizen. Please don't even go there using the amorphous concept of being at war with a verb, like the "war on terror". We will have sunk to a new low, and destroyed our own rules of law in the name of false security if this suspect disappears to Gitmo or the like. As heinous as what the crimes he and his brother likely committed are,we are going down a very slippery slope, driven by visceral reaction, rather than one governed by the rule of law, that we are supposed to live under. I'm afraid that when US senators start calling US citizens enemy combatants, the "terrorists" have already won. This directed at Graham and McCain? just trying to understand this part, since I never brought up the term enemy combatant.What I did bring up before is this. My two cents tho it is a generic statement. Our system needs to define what terrorism is and or define what they mean by political when it comes to things like domestic terror and these type of things "if" domestic, should the terrorist still have certain rights in the criminal system. Holder made a statement awhile ago that terrorist do not have constitutional rights. The President when he came on called the act terrorism. I personally hope he is not giving the right to have rights. Luckily "at-least" to this point he has not been giving miranda rights. Keep in mind volzj, Holder made that statement when speaking of a us citizen. Allow the state and local authorities to do their jobs, within the LAW as it exists. When Timothy McVeigh bombed the federal building on Oklahoma City (a far more devastating blast) investigators and prosecutors did their work, got a conviction and appropriate sentence was delivered. The system worked. Let's not be an utter embarrassment to ourselves and our history by doing otherwise. By no means did the our system work in this case. He was never tried as a terrorist. The conviction you write of only counted for 8 people out of the 168? he killed. Never mind all the others who did not die. That is a working system, for such matters? Edited April 20, 2013 by Wayne S Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) <....> Considering what amateurs these two were, There should be enough evidence to convict by the numbers just fine. no reason to break our own rules to nail a 19 year old loser. <.....> Those two amateurs managed to kill 4 people and maim, injure and terrorize many more and shut down a major metropolitan city for nearly a week ... What rules have been broken ? -Gregg Edited April 21, 2013 by GreyGhost Link to post Share on other sites
john53 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) Hand and hand with the Devil.......Hellbound Train Edited April 21, 2013 by john53 Link to post Share on other sites
otis252 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Declare them enemy combatants and send them to Gitmo with the rest of the savages. Chuck Link to post Share on other sites
volzj Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 No more from me on this, since it's impossible to do without crossing the politics police. But, that doesn't seem to apply to everyone's posts though... Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Stark Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Wow. Timothy McVeigh was indicted by the federal government (and later convicted by a jury) on conspiracy to use a weapon of mass destruction, use of a weapon of mass destruction, destruction by explosives as well as eight federal counts of first degree murder of federal law enforcement officers. The U.S. Department of Justice brought federal charges against McVeigh for causing the deaths of eight federal officers leading to a possible death penalty for McVeigh; they could not bring charges against McVeigh for the remaining 160 murders in federal court because those deaths fell under the jurisdiction of the State of Oklahoma. Because McVeigh was convicted and sentenced to death (Federal court cases take priority over State cases), the State of Oklahoma did not file murder charges against McVeigh for the other 160 deaths. McVeigh was convicted, sentenced and executed for his crimes. And WayneS thinks the system failed because he wasn't charged as a terrorist. Ladies and gentlemen, if you want to celebrate 4/20, fine. But don't operate a motor vehicle and don't drink the bong water and go online. What did WayneS want, for McVeigh to be executed 169 times in the town square while the locals with torches cheered on the circus? Link to post Share on other sites
Tony Stark Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 Declare them enemy combatants and send them to Gitmo with the rest of the savages. Chuck "Them?" Who's "them?" One of the brothers is dead and the other - an American citizen - is listed in serious condition in the hospital, facing multiple counts of murder and attempted murder (including attempted murder of law enforcement officials), federal counts of conspiracy to use a weapons of mass destruction, using weapons of mass destruction and could very well be facing the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996. The brothers were no more "enemy combatants" than the shooters at Columbine or Aurora, CO. I'd hate to be the next Richard Jewell in this day and age. Link to post Share on other sites
TaiidanTomcat Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) Those two amateurs managed to kill 4 people and maim, injure and terrorize many more and shut down a major metropolitan city for nearly a week ... Oh ok. I amend it to terrorist masterminds, who were just unlucky enough to be killed or captured within 96 hours. What rules have been broken ? My point is that there is more than enough evidence, with more to come soon to make the lone survivor pay for the rest of his life after being convicted through regular judicial processes within state and federal law, that there is no need to violate the constitution in order to "make him pay more"-- He isn't worth crossing that line. Its complete overkill, and one of the things I miss about the old pre terrorist days, is that the government had rules that they had to follow even if no one else did. we can make him pay plenty without violating our own rules or civil rights, as people on this board are calling for. As much as everyone would love for this guy to be put up against a wall and shot, I don't feel we need any more tastes of Chechnya then what these two gave us already, thanks. Edited April 21, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 They may have been amateurs but they were effective ... Probably a billion+ dollar hit o the local economy as well ... Most terrorists are not masterminds ... They don't have to be, they just have to be good enough ... I agree with your points about his rights but none have been broken ... -Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
Litvyak Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 As much as everyone would love for this guy to be put up against a wall and shot, I don't feel we need any more tastes of Chechnya then what these two gave us already, thanks. In all of this terrorism stuff, everyone seems to forget this bit. Maybe not these two (since as the uncle said, they were just disaffected losers (who amongst us isn't, though, really??)), but a lot of the terrorism that's happened against the West has been on political grounds *exactly because of* our egalitarianism/civil rights - or just lump it all together as 'freedom' (I'll refrain from getting onto a tangent about the imperfection of it, but the point is that we're at least *trying* to build such a society)... each bit of restriction or limitation on that 'freedom', each time exceptions are made bypassing our judicial system, etc, etc, each one of those undermines our system and our values and brings us down to their level a little bit more each time, part of our collective self dies and those who hate our way of life win a little bit more. The ironic part is that each of those exceptions made, each of those restrictions put in place, are done "in defence of our way of life"... Link to post Share on other sites
GreyGhost Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 We keep giving up liberties in the name of "safety" & "security" also ... -Gregg Link to post Share on other sites
vvac201 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 (edited) I B T L!!! :-) B) Edited April 21, 2013 by vvac201 Link to post Share on other sites
vince14 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I do find it rather amusing that the masses declare that terrorists blow people up because "They hate our freedoms!!!", and then in response to such an act actively want and encourage the government to erode those very same 'freedoms' that the terrorists are attacking. Seems a bit backwards to me. Vince Link to post Share on other sites
loki Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 You cannot call these people enemy combatants. They were living in the US amongst you all. They were not taking part in battle for a named government or regime, during enemy action involving military action overseas and they were not spies for a regime. They were simply motivated by religion or their own ends. Their target was the civilian population and thus cannot be enemy combatants by definition. If you try and use this moniker, they will not be read their Miranda rights and anything they do say cannot be used in a Court of law. They certainly cannot be tried in a Military Court. Best to keep it simple. Miranda rights given and access to defence lawyers. The people of Boston deserve answers and the only way to do this is to have this tried in open Court. If this is kept away from the public view and dealt with by the military, there will be no answers given except the answers given by the military. Do you believe them enough to tell you the truth? Link to post Share on other sites
bugs3144 Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 I recall earlier that a statement was made that war has not been declared. WRONG. Radical islamist have declared a "Jihad Holy War" against the U.S. and use this every chance they get to kill not only Americans but anyone that does not believe their radical ideas, even their own people. Send this guy to gitmo where he will spend the rest of his life in comfort or semi comfort doesn't repay the damage he and his brother did. Massachusetts doesn't have the death penalty but this was a federal crime. He deserves exicution and the public needs to witness it. Frank ATL Link to post Share on other sites
Flyingfortress Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 So these a-holes kill and maim people and we're to treat them with dignity and fair justice in order to show the other a-holes in the world that we're a fair and just society? What happened to 'each his own'? If you want to pray to a god who you feel encourages the people to walk on their elbows, that's fine. Don't go blowing up, killing and maiming those who have a god that says to walk upright. I'm not sure how many members on ARC have lost family and friends to religious and political strife (I have) but I'll bet if you did your thinking would change. BTW, good thing politics aren't allowed on the forums. Link to post Share on other sites
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