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why why why?? what have i done here to get insulted on this forum


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Who cares what other people think. If you like the build, then that's all it counts. One comment shouldn't let it get the best of you. To all that's mentioned in this grow up, play nice, and let the hobby continue to be fun.

All the best

Roy

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From reading the original thread I don't see anywhere where modelguy insulted you or the build in the beginning. You seemed to attack him after his comment and then he put the defense barriers up. He wasnt even critiquing your build but more just generalizing that during his time there never would have been that dirty of an A-4 in his unit. He even congratulates the build several times in his first statement.

Then you go and tell him he's wrong (how do you know) and start the argument with him. If you don't have pictures of every single A-4 then neither of you are right or wrong. That's one of the perks of the hobby the artistic license. By the end he got frustrated and said ok kid.

I side with modelguy. Your reactions and definitely the making of this thread were very childish. Toughen your skin the Internet is full of keyboard warriors.

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if a picture is posted on the general forum, just blow sunshine at the person even if they show a La-Z-Boy recliner in the cockpit of a Sopwith Camel and the wings are made of bricks.

Lets not forget that this emoticon should be added at every opportunity --> :jaw-dropping:

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I have no doubt that both of your are good guys, but some poor choices were made in the discussion. Threads like this spin out of control when people react to specific things that were said. Here's what I saw.

What he did wrong

  • He critiqued your model in the Display area.
  • He wondered aloud if you're "too soft skinned," which put you on the defensive.
  • He addressed you as "kid."

What you did wrong

  • You responded to his brief critique. Sometimes it's better to ignore these things unless it's an outright attack.
  • You used the phrase, "Your very wrong." There were more tactful ways to defend your build, such as, "Based on photographs that I collected, the plane gets very dirty in use."
  • You asked him why he didn't comment on your in-progress build. In his defense, maybe he didn't see it.
  • You used the phrase, "Give yourself a pat on the back," which put him on the defensive.

It's all about the language, the choice of words.

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So if there's one thing I learned, if a picture is posted on the general forum, just blow sunshine at the person even if they show a La-Z-Boy recliner in the cockpit of a Sopwith Camel and the wings are made of bricks.

Or say nothing at all.

Ken

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I love throwing my 2 cents in and like everyone has said, hey it's the internet! You were both right and wrong. This is the point now in the real world where you both shake hands and agree to disagree and move on. I'm the kind of person who doesn't hold a grudge even if I've been in a heated argument so I'd suggest both of you just forget the whole deal, who knows you could end up being friends in the end, it's happened to me before and I'm sure many others as well. I will say the model to me looked great, the weathering was realistic from my point of view but I'm also not a former marine or scooter driver so my knowledge on the subject is limited, however you used references so I'd trust your sources. Mike sure you may not have seen scooters that dirty in your day, so I commend you for keeping your a/c clean and tidy, however that doesn't mean that they all were, maybe this one is on deployment to SEA and keeping her clean isn't a priority as much as keeping her in the fight. There you have it, my 2 cents. Maybe I should start to build a model so I can actually post something other than plane spotting pics lol!

Happy modelling all and I look forward to seeing some more finished builds from you both in the future!

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I've been on this forum for quite a long time, and I've seen many a discussion get out of hand. There are many informative posts on this thread. The bottom line is that both posters involved took something that really wasn't a big deal and actually made it a big deal. I went back and read the original thread. Mark, your model looks very good and it's well constructed. There are many positive comments. However, you got your feelings hurt when someone posted a "negative" comment. I used quotes because it really wasn't negative. Weathering seems to be a passion of Mike T's. Being around the very aircraft you built, he was looking at it from an accuracy standpoint. At the risk of putting words in his mouth, I think the meaning of his comment was that the weathering was artistic, but not realistic. There's nothing wrong with that. It's how people finish their models. It should have ended there. The problem was that you got your feelings hurt and got defensive. This lead to Mike getting defensive and the whole thing went downhill from there. The issue I'm seeing is that now you've brought it up as a completely separate thread. I can't read your mind, but I have difficulty believing you brought this up in General Discussion to flesh out the problem of negative comments in threads in a general sense. There just isn't a widespread problem with that here on ARC. The appearance is that you are still hurt and defensive, and want to get people "on your side" on this issue. I understand the need to do that. Like I said, I've been on this board for a long time and I've seen this play out a number of times. My advise, for what it's worth, is to let it go. Mods, I'd recommend locking this thread simply because there's really nothing more that can be posted that hasn't already been stated.

Edited by Darren Roberts
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I think you are both "right" technically on the model. A-4s flew in vietnam and a lot of sorties at that, so yes they got dirty. the critic seems to have been a Marine post vietnam, so yes they would be more clean. It comes down to what you are trying to show and when. A model is a picture in time. If you took a picture of one of our helicopters in august you would want to vomit, but within a month they are clean as can be. same machine, different dates. and even then weathering is such an arbitrary thing, especially with photos online.

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The real root problem here is that some folks on ARC can not accept critique of their work with some level of dignity.

Yes it sucks when something you put a lot of time and work into is critiqued. But if you are unwilling to take the both the positive and negative comments, then why would you present your work in a public space?

Especially in a space where the public is fellow artists/craftsmen/experts whatever?

If you get a bee in your bonnet about a neutral comment somebody made, then do yourself a favor and never ever post your work on some of the non-english speaking modeling forums that are out there. Those people will crucify you!

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The real root problem here is that some folks on ARC can not accept critique of their work with some level of dignity.

Yes it sucks when something you put a lot of time and work into is critiqued. But if you are unwilling to take the both the positive and negative comments, then why would you present your work in a public space?

Especially in a space where the public is fellow artists/craftsmen/experts whatever?

If you get a bee in your bonnet about a neutral comment somebody made, then do yourself a favor and never ever post your work on some of the non-english speaking modeling forums that are out there. Those people will crucify you!

That's why we have a specific section for critique and one for display; people with different sensitivities can feel accommodated so stuff like this doesn't happen. This thread actually proves its need: look what happened when it did. Its purpose is clearly labeled... and the critiquer in this place should have known better given he's been around here for quite awhile it seems. At very least he could have delivered it in a much more constructive and helpful fashion instead of going to "you're wrong" and "I know better than you."

I don't think Mark needed to put this post up at all... it does make a mosquito out of an elephant as a certain dutchman has said. But he feels aggrieved and frankly, I and probably you would too. I'm sure we would have handled it differently, but then again, is there a reason that he shouldn't express his feelings?

Edited by -Neu-
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I really like this forum - I thought a good place to put up builds - join in, have fun! You can get lots of information from people on here.

Also I like to post up my work...

a-4 in display case

So why on earth does Mike T take it on himself to start pointing out how very wrong my weathering is on this thread? So even when I took the trouble to show him some references of none so immaculate airframes --- what does he do --- responds with a stack of insults ?

I also post builds up in the Critique area --

critique corner A-4

I like both areas - one for feedback one for just showing the builds to the forum.

I personally don`t really care - frankly its pathetic. Just a shame on this forum I thought it was a more relaxed place with less of this sort of stuff?

best

Mark

I liked what I saw! A little dirty, but they do get dirty, and then get washed. Never was around an A4M, but was around a lot of the earlier ones comming back from bombing runs, and yes they did get funky.

gary

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yeah its a pretty cool debate ! Im glad I posted this. I know exactly the sort of sentiment Mike T is expressing - I tell you for a fact finding dirty A-4s were not a common occurrence. But they do/did exist.

If anything I want to be a bit more appreciative of other builds i see on the forum ! I cant keep track of the amount of stuff on here -- being built, built etc! I wish there was just a "like" button.

I don`t want to keep arguing on these forums - I cant see the purpose of it. Its a fact that you cant please everyone. Opinions are entirely different from critique - and basically - if ain`t going to help don`t bother is my advice. Just pointing out "wrongs" for the sake of it based on subjective opinion?

A lot of people missed the point that Neu pointed out - there are 2 areas for displaying your work one just to display and one for constructive comment. There seems to be plenty of people taking sides? But really the validity of the critique is that even questioned - remember we are talking about models here. It was based on hey im a former USMC so and so and I know more than you will ever do you mere model maker. So what -- I dont see how that ends the debate?. I myself have served my Country on active duty --- but guess what - im not going to ram it down your neck trying to come over all superior.

Nobody is sat besides us coaching our builds - we choose subjects we like and model them! Its really that simple and if you choose to weather that model to depict certain reference info - go for it ! and also if you want to leave her clean --- yes also go for it! But dont knock them because they choose to depict a dirty or clean airframe from reference info. That has zero to do with being "thick skinned" or adverse to criticism.

It would have been a lot easier to ignore this whole thing - I mean seriously, it would have been easier to just say "actually this is a whatifplanesgetdirtysometimes" -- then I could have saved having to even justify a single build!

Edited by MarkC
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I think you are both "right" technically on the model. A-4s flew in vietnam and a lot of sorties at that, so yes they got dirty. the critic seems to have been a Marine post vietnam, so yes they would be more clean. It comes down to what you are trying to show and when. A model is a picture in time. If you took a picture of one of our helicopters in august you would want to vomit, but within a month they are clean as can be. same machine, different dates. and even then weathering is such an arbitrary thing, especially with photos online.

Well, the subject was a post-Vietnam, peace-time Skyhawk. The critic's views sounded like they were contemporary to the time period the model is supposed to be representing.

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Well, the subject was a post-Vietnam, peace-time Skyhawk. The critic's views sounded like they were contemporary to the time period the model is supposed to be representing.

Ahh thank you

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What he did wrong

  • He critiqued your model in the Display area.
  • He wondered aloud if you're "too soft skinned," which put you on the defensive.
  • He addressed you as "kid."

What you did wrong

  • You responded to his brief critique. Sometimes it's better to ignore these things unless it's an outright attack.
  • You used the phrase, "Your very wrong." There were more tactful ways to defend your build, such as, "Based on photographs that I collected, the plane gets very dirty in use."
  • You asked him why he didn't comment on your in-progress build. In his defense, maybe he didn't see it.
  • You used the phrase, "Give yourself a pat on the back," which put him on the defensive.

It's all about the language, the choice of words.

This is very correct, and I would definitely give Mike T the benefit of the doubt when it comes to personal experience with Skyhawks. In the flight sim community we argued about flight models and colors of enemy planes. When Pierre Closterman claimed to be fighting YELLOW Fw-190s over the channel, half of the readers believed him and his personal experience and yet the other half claimed that his experience was partially based on the "fog of war." There is definitely room to question someone who was there, but at the same time, Mike T didn't just catch a glimpse of an A-4 one time -- HE WORKED ON THEM DAY IN AND DAY OUT! I relate to Mike T because, as a Marine, I worked on Harrier IIs and I often see unrealistic weathering and painting -- sometimes the panel lines are too visible, sometimes the planes are too clean or dirty, the engines are completely wrong (I know as an F-402 guy), but I let those details slide. Marines are notoriously obsessive with cleanliness when they are not in the combat zone, this includes uniforms, rifles, aircraft, decks, bulkheads, streets, facial hair, haircuts, fingernails, landscaping, support equipment, etc. I think there was confusion at the level of critiquing in the Display Case and an unwarranted reaction by the original poster.

As a bottom line, I live by this rule: A Marine observes its surroundings with special attention to detail; it's in their General Orders. They usually have no reason to lie about their experiences and observations, and have nothing to gain by it. But still, the Display Case is not for criticism.

Edited by Exhausted
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Exhausted - I really don`t see at all what your point is? :jaw-dropping:/>

So basically the references I used and that the photo i posted is a "lie" and that someone`s opinion is the truth? Exactly what does serving in the marines have to do with weathered aircraft? I`m really lost on that one! This stuff is pretty laughable wouldn't it be just a lot easier to say "hey i cant stand weathered aircraft models - they don`t exist in my little fantasy world because the marines keep em clean during my one tour of duty as a chief runway sweeper"

Edited by MarkC
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not just one tour

there are now at least three of us that have said over the last 3 years that a Marine has been known to actually perform his duty and wash an aircraft now and then

I have no doubt that the Skyhawk photo that you posted is real,,,,,,but, I am also sure that since it was NOT at Chu Lai or some similar area, that the photo in question was accurate for less than a full day

I hope this post doesn't include too many things you can embellish into further outrage at the Marines, as you have been slowly adding with each post above (at least three of your "quotes" are made up of new and stronger words, not actual quotes)

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