Not crucially important (late Luftwaffe colors)...

[Ken from NJ]

Hello all,

Were late war camo colors on Luftwaffe fighters determined by their:

(1) werk nummer, or

(2) by the factory they were produced in, or

(3) by the group/ squadron they would eventually go to

I see Me 109G-14s, G-10s and Ks in every combination of 74/75, 81/82, 81/75, 82/83, sometimes with that 84 tan-looking color thrown in, and on and on. :wacko:/>/>

I kinda wanted to do a G-10 with 81/82/76 and I don't find too many pics of this color combo.

But like I said, not a big deal.

Thanks for looking.

Ken

[Jennings]

German aircraft production by late 1944 was a hodge-podge of small 'shadow factories' in barns, basements, and caves. Final assembly used parts from hither and thither. Remember that the USAAF and the RAF had bombed every German factory of any size to smithereens by then (they actually had trouble coming up with targets at one point). The entire country was a mass of twisted rubble, especially the railroad system, which bottle necked all production. Given that, it's astounding that they produced anything, let alone the quantity of aircraft they did.

Given the state of the industry, it's little wonder things got painted whatever color came to hand. Germans being Germans (I am one, so I can say this), they remained anal-retentive to the last however, with the RLM issuing color instructions practically up to the time old 'Dolph put the PPK to his temple. But the reality was, things got painted or didn't get painted, but they got assembled and shipped out to the units (to be chewed up by Allied fighters in their thousands) regardless.

There's some correlation of paint schemes to W.Nr. blocks, but I think that's more the exception than the rule.

[jester292]

Jennings nailed it! Colors would be similar through small production runs, but that doesn't mean the whole batch went to the same squadron. Thus you see different schemes within a Gruppe on similar aircraft. Not to mention the painting that happened "in the field" (at their base). That was typically done with whatever paint they had on hand. That causes variations between aircraft as well.

Aaron

[Ruud]

and there is "late" and "late." November/December, you might still get a block of aircraft going to convert or replenish a unit. There are trends with each manufacturer, but the later you go the looser the trends get. On 109's and 190D's you get engines from one place, wings from another, and tails from yet another. you slap it all on to your fuselage and get it out the door ASAP. Then units are being combined or swapping aircraft and damaged planes are being repaired anyway they can be...

JAPO has two books on trying to explain the camo for just the 190D's. At times they only have one or two planes that have pictures to decipher for a production run. That gives you an idea of the holes that exists in the current knowledge base. Even the experts will agree to disagree on what they think a given plane's colors are.

Each manufacturer was assigned a block of werk nummers based on the aircraft. Here are the 109's:

http://www.messerschmitt-bf109.de/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=werknummernbloecke

[Ken from NJ]

Thank you guys for your input, wisdom and suggestions.

I know I can build and paint any way I wish, but I like at least a little background info and some confirming pictures whenever possible. I feel more confident that I know what I'm doing and gonna do.

Thanks again.

Ken

[WymanV]

Hello all,

Were late war camo colors on Luftwaffe fighters determined by their:

(1) werk nummer, or

(2) by the factory they were produced in, or

(3) by the group/ squadron they would eventually go to

I would suggest none of the above, but the timing when the airframe was factory finished/refurbished. Which of course has nothing to do with what happens to them when they arrive at their designated unit.

Ken

[Stona]

I don't think the variation was as great as some imagine.

To answer questions 1,2 and 3 for an aircraft off the production line, the colours were determined by the RLM.

There were not dozens of small factories producing paints but a few companies and they were all working to the same recipes.

Of course there would be small variations but just as in the US or Britain these paints had to match the Ministry (RLM) standard.

How parts produced in different plants were cobbled together to make an airframe is a good source of odd juxtapositions (for example between the traditional RLM 76 and the yellow/green version). Also pre-built sections, like empennages, would not always match the rest of the fuselage camouflage.

This is not the same as huge variations in the colour of particular colours.

A good example would be RLM 66. Jerry Crandall has discovered numerous different formulae for the paint but only two distinguishable variations in the colour of the finished product during the entire period of the war.

What got slapped on aircraft by the various units operating them by way of "local" camouflage is another story altogether.

Cheers

Steve

[Ken from NJ]

Ken and Steve,

Thanks to you for your info/ input.

I have every confidence that whatever I come up with will be as accurate as any other scheme.

Ken

[ch9862]

Were late war camo colors on Luftwaffe fighters determined by their:

(1) werk nummer, or

(2) by the factory they were produced in, or

(3) by the group/ squadron they would eventually go to

In a word - 1 and 2 go together, and generally determine the camo. Plenty of exceptions though.

I kinda wanted to do a G-10 with 81/82/76 and I don't find too many pics of this color combo.

May not be easy to find 81/82 combination on a G-10.

HTH

[Ruud]

MMP's Bf 109 Late Versions - Camouflage & Markings lists W.Nr. 151567 as a 81/82 scheme.

http://www.bf-109.com/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ausgabetabelle_wnr&aktuellekennung=151567

It also shows another G-10 (152XXX Possible Erla) as being 81/82 with these colors going all the way down the sides of the fuselage.

[bigjugs]

Yep, turning out Me 262s in some game keepers cottage. Perhaps Hansel und Gretel produced engines in the witch's cottage. There were factories and assembly points in massive tunnels and caves dug into mountain sides. Most likely, the colors, as Japo and Crandall note, were based on production runs. Not illogical to have large shipments of paint sent to one location. The color may be different., but a run would use up what was sent. Granted production was a fraction of what it was at the beginning of the war, and many of the caves resulted in production problems (moisture causing corrosion and access issues). But, there was still an attempt to maintain production.

Edited June 21, 2013 by bigjugs

[Ken from NJ]

Thanks again, everyone.

This has gotten more informative than I thought it might.

All great and useful stuff.

Now I should fess up: I'm currently building a G-6 with standard 74/75/76, underwing mortars. But I'm looking forward to some later war schemes.

Ken

[Stona]

Now I should fess up: I'm currently building a G-6 with standard 74/75/76, underwing mortars. But I'm looking forward to some later war schemes.

Ken

Here's one I prepared earlier.

The camouflage colours are all standard RLM colours, just cobbled together in a rather odd patchwork and with some later overspray (the rudder for example). It's a genuine example.

Steve

[bigjugs]

Not unusual at all to have a late war rudder not match. Decentralized production on a small scale and pre-painted.

[Ken from NJ]

YES, Stona. EXACTLY!

The brown-violet 81, green 82 and the mysterious fuselage 84 color... and the weirdness of the lower rudder, hand painted vertical stab blotches... all I find so intriguing.

And thanks for doing the research. I've gone buggy with seeing examples and then exceptions to the examples.

Great to see!

Ken

[Ken from NJ]

Thanks to you, bigjugs.

I was responding just when you were. And there's those odd rudders that don't match but look so cool by their oddness.

More great stuff!

Ken

[The Mikester]

A lot of good info here, ch9862 summed it up pretty well. 81/82 is not a common combo (on the 109), I've learned to never say never when it comes to 109's but I've done a lot of reading on this and haven't come across many authors who feel that this was a valid combination of colors. Remarkably the K-4 was actually fairly consistent in the paint scheme and colors applied by W.Nr. batch right up until the end. "Messerschmitt Bf 109K-4 Camouflage and Marking" by Japo is a great study on the subject. I would venture that the the bird in Steve's pic is 81/83, however that's just my opinion.

190's on the other hand seemed to be much more of a "catch as catch can" proposition with a lot more variation.

Edited June 23, 2013 by The Mikester

[The Mikester]

MMP's Bf 109 Late Versions - Camouflage & Markings lists W.Nr. 151567 as a 81/82 scheme.

http://www.bf-109.com/web.php?lang=de&auth=e&name=ausgabetabelle_wnr&aktuellekennung=151567

It also shows another G-10 (152XXX Possible Erla) as being 81/82 with these colors going all the way down the sides of the fuselage.

Wolowski's frame of reference in this one leads to some confusion since he refers to Dark Green as RLM 82 and RLM 83 as Light Green which is opposite of the standard convention. He does provide his rationale for doing so but I think it just creates more confusion.

Edited June 23, 2013 by The Mikester

[Ruud]

His Late 109 Camo books seems to have it's share of mistakes in the captions also. He writes that Diana G-10's usually were 77/82/76, but in his profiles he writes that they are 75/82/76 (though the profiles show 77 not 75 according to his color chart in the beginning of the book). Also he writes a few times about the under wing crosses and then the profile has it the other way (black out lined with white vs. just black or the reverse).

[Ken from NJ]

Would it be wise to not take the Merrick and Hitchcock "Official Monogram etc." as 100% accurate?

I thought I had read colors 82 (darker green) and 83 (lighter green) maybe should have been reported as 82 (lighter) and 83 (darker). :bandhead2:/>

However... I love having that book as the starting point for camo colors/ patterns.

Ken

[The Mikester]

His Late 109 Camo books seems to have it's share of mistakes in the captions also. He writes that Diana G-10's usually were 77/82/76, but in his profiles he writes that they are 75/82/76 (though the profiles show 77 not 75 according to his color chart in the beginning of the book). Also he writes a few times about the under wing crosses and then the profile has it the other way (black out lined with white vs. just black or the reverse).

Agree, I think what he's calling RLM 77 was just RLM 75 that was either thinly applied or just low on pigment content.

[The Mikester]

Would it be wise to not take the Merrick and Hitchcock "Official Monogram etc." as 100% accurate?

I thought I had read colors 82 (darker green) and 83 (lighter green) maybe should have been reported as 82 (lighter) and 83 (darker). :bandhead2:/>/>

However... I love having that book as the starting point for camo colors/ patterns.

Ken

Ken,

I don't own that book but Merrick is one of the gurus on Luftwaffe paint. Problem is a lot of new information has come to light the last ten years, so sometimes what was taken as the gospel is now considered incorrect.

[Stona]

Problem is a lot of new information has come to light the last ten years, so sometimes what was taken as the gospel is now considered incorrect.

Nonetheless RLM 77 is a documented colour and is a light grey as supposedly seen on some late war aircraft. Whether that colour is indeed RLM 77 (the number implies it was intended as a camouflage colour, 76, 78, 79 were used thus) a thinned RLM 75, or just bad photo interpretation is of course debateable.

I don't believe a colour as far away from the formulation and chips for RLM 75 as this alleged colour would have been accepted by the RLM as 75. It was the RLM that was ultimately footing the bill. The Ministry got very unhappy about variations in RLM 02 early in the war when supplies of raw materials were still adequate.

Cheers

Steve

[ch9862]

I don't believe a colour as far away from the formulation and chips for RLM 75 as this alleged colour would have been accepted by the RLM as 75.

Not that it matters, but I (currently!) subscribe to the same way of thinking. The light color - to my eyes - is too light too often to be considered a thin application of 75. But ultimately colors are more important than their names, so anyone can call them what they will =).

Just to stir the pot.

[Ruud]

Ken, if you look at the instructions for the Fine Molds 1/72 Bf 109G-10, it's decal option (blue 4) calls for 81/83. http://modelingmadness.com/scott/axis/previews/finemolds/fl11p.htm