Eleven Things You No Longer See On Airplanes

[Antonov]

Yeah, ain't that the truth:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/51270/11-things-we-no-longer-see-airplanes

Although, admittedly, #12 could be "tickets that cost $1200 (in 1970s dollars) for a coast-to-coast roundtrip in coach".

Edited July 3, 2013 by Antonov

[TaiidanTomcat]

Yeah, ain't that the truth:

http://mentalfloss.com/article/51270/11-things-we-no-longer-see-airplanes

Although, admittedly, #12 could be "tickets that cost $1200 (in 1970s dollars) for a coast-to-coast roundtrip in coach".

but think of what we get instead!!

you didn't get that kind of individual attention way back when. Its has become much more personal

Edited July 4, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

Plus no astray's

BTW yes the airport security is all the theatre we get now. It stops nothing but makes sheep-like passengers feel somewhat safe even if they either get felt up by low morale and often rude staff or worse scanned images of them that not only invade privacy but are not and will not ever be secured from getting out or also being looked at by a possible pervert(s) watching the screens.

DAMMIT I'm so sick of a world fueled on paranoia and worse the aholes benefiting from it by power grabs and lots of senseless money thrown their way.

Still to this day the single most dangerous possible event that a flying passenger may have to deal with will be driving in a car on a highway or road while on their way to the damn airport.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Les / Creative Edge Photo

[Litvyak]

At least they could hire attractive people to do the gropin- I mean, security screening...

[TaiidanTomcat]

At least they could hire attractive people to do the gropin- I mean, security screening...

Oh I'm not picky, most perverts aren't. Well worth the price of admission as far as I'm concerned,though I tend to get a lot of security attention when they ask me where I am "flying to today" and I tell them I just bought the ticket for the screening, not really the flight, and yes I would like to "opt out"

--twice if I can and could you hold my shoes? I'll tell ya folks I can't pay strippers to fondle me like these federal patriot employees do.

Honestly though I think they are just going through the motions lately, and not just because we are on a first name basis now. I mean its been almost 12 years since 9/11 and I can tell a lot of the people that grope me so I can red eye to wherever, are just thinking about how they are 8 years from retirement. They kind of lost that glow they used to have when they always thought they were just one passenger away from finding the real terrorist. it really sapped their morale when terrorists would get through and passengers would have to foil the terrorists in flight as well. Still these heroes deserve every bit of their federal pension for the rest of their days, deficits mean you just haven't borrowed enough money anyway.

hell everything I know about the dark times (pre 1983, my birth year)I learned from these people:

Edited July 4, 2013 by TaiidanTomcat

[11bee]

Honestly though I think they are just going through the motions lately, and not just because we are on a first name basis now. I mean its been almost 12 years since 9/11 and I can tell a lot of the people that grope me so I can red eye to wherever, are just thinking about how they are 8 years from retirement. They kind of lost that glow they used to have when they always thought they were just one passenger away from finding the real terrorist. it really sapped their morale when terrorists would get through and passengers would have to foil the terrorists in flight as well. Still these heroes deserve every bit of their federal pension for the rest of their days, deficits mean you just haven't borrowed enough money anyway.

It's funny - everyone whines about the TSA and yet everyone also whined when the bad guys breezed through security and crashed planes into buildings. They may not be perfect (by a long shot) but what is the priority - try to maintain security on flights or make sure our precious frequent fliers have a convenient travel experience? If this enhances our security by 1%, I'm fine with taking off my shoes (and by the way, I probably travel much more than most of the folks on this forum).

Let's go back to pre-9/11 and sub out security to the lowest bidder. That worked pretty well (except for a single day).

Edited July 4, 2013 by 11bee

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

It's funny - everyone whines about the TSA and yet everyone also whined when the bad guys breezed through security and crashed planes into buildings. They may not be perfect (by a long shot) but what is the priority - try to maintain security on flights or make sure our precious frequent fliers have a convenient travel experience? If this enhances our security by 1%, I'm fine with taking off my shoes (and by the way, I probably travel much more than most of the folks on this forum).

Let's go back to pre-9/11 and sub out security to the lowest bidder. That worked pretty well (except for a single day).

The fact is IT'S ALL SECURITY THEATRE! TSA has not and is not providing you any real security. It's a show to first proverbially brow beat folks into line of accepting an overbearing govt. bureaucracy (Shut Up Slave!) and to appease the paranoid who think they are being better protected by such silly and wasteful efforts. They are in fact making it easier for a tragic event to happen with long lines of upset and bothered passengers and TSA staff who are either lifeless in attitude or more so arrogant jerks and as such aren't seeing the possible proverbial elephant in the room. The airports themselves are the possible event now not the damn airplanes loaded up with passengers.

Security is actually even subletted out to a lower bidder post 9/11 than prior to such and hey 9/11 WAS ONE FREAKING TRAGIC DAY! STOP RELIVING IT IN ALL OF YOUR COLLECTIVE MINDS FOLKS! Bad guys were not crashing airliners all over the place prior to 9/11. Society has to move on while not forgetting ok? Cowering in fear and paranoia as well as worse allowing politicians, bureaucracy and fascistic corporatists to totally have you change your lives and limit your rights and freedoms MEANS THE DAMN TERRORISTS HAVE WON!

[Horrido]

It's funny - everyone whines about the TSA and yet everyone also whined when the bad guys breezed through security and crashed planes into buildings. They may not be perfect (by a long shot) but what is the priority - try to maintain security on flights or make sure our precious frequent fliers have a convenient travel experience? If this enhances our security by 1%, I'm fine with taking off my shoes (and by the way, I probably travel much more than most of the folks on this forum).

Let's go back to pre-9/11 and sub out security to the lowest bidder. That worked pretty well (except for a single day).

But it isn't about maintaining security, and the TSA doesn't enhance our security (it's actually more about making an end-run around the 4th Amendment regarding illegal search and seizure and looking for contraband). Even a former head of the TSA, Kip Hawley, admitted to that, saying it was theater. He travels mostly by train within the US, now. The issue on 9/11 was not the security (they were armed with legal box cutters, not the most efficient of edged weapons), the issue was with the attitude/response of the passengers. You don't brainwash people to allow the bad guys to have their way and expect good things to happen. People had it drilled into their skulls to be passive and not resist hijackers. It was obvious where that would lead, and it came to pass. The only thing surprising about 9/11 is that it involved four planes (I was expecting two) and that it took the bad guys so long to implement it.

Since passengers have adopted a much more proactive approach, how many hijackings have we had since? What happens to those who create a disturbance?

http://popculturez.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/manonflightdrunk.jpg

Yeah, point proven.

[vince14]

Vince

[CorsairMan]

Here's 2:

- Enjoyment; and

- Relaxation.

[DutyCat]

In before the lock is right, Vince.

The TSA was founded in response to good governance and public demand to "do something" in the wake of 9/11. The government is is not spending a fortune running the TSA to harass citizens. The TSA is in place to do several things...to add a layer of security to air travel, to deter the would be terrorist, and to show citizens that their government is making an effort to protect them. The TSA was not founded as a "power grab," or as an excuse to fondle the breasts of women, or look for your stash of marijuana. Is it a good instrument to screen for contraband? You bet it is, so why not use it to enforce the law at the same time you are screening passengers for security threats? Laws on the books and not enforced, or procedures that are not followed, will not be effective. The fact that there have been few incidents on airliners since 9/11 is a testament to the overall effectiveness of the program. They don't find much, because people know they will be screened.

Large institutions, especially government organizations, are by nature inefficient, especially when saddled with the requisite bureaucracy that politics requires in the modern era. The TSA is a new organization. It is in the learning curve of figuring out how to do its job while trying to incorporate newly developed technology. Naturally, there will be mistakes and room for refinement. I can assure you that a TSA screener has to put up with a lot more abuse EVERY DAY from impatient air travelers than he/she dishes out to you during that infrequent time when you have to go through their check point. Cut 'em some slack.

Americans, by an large, for all of their positive traits, are also spoiled. We are used to having our own way and not being inconvenienced. Individual rights, entitlement, and self indulgement is the mentality of modern day America. A greater sense of duty would be helpful. We should be cooperating with the TSA agent.....help them do their job...be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Related to the TSA discussion......people talk about the "evil government" as if it were this malevolent single minded entity trying to steal our money, control us, and generally make our lives miserable. I read some of these comments posted, and hear people opine about abusive government and I just want to roll my eyes. Many folks seem not to realize how good they have it, and have really never experienced what true abuse of power is. The US Government is not this centrally controlled, all powerful organization. It is a large and diverse group of specialized agencies under one big umbrella. Its core mission is to serve the interests of the citizens of the United States, and that includes individuals, associations/groups of individuals, and corporations made up of individuals (workers, owners, stockholders). The people that work within the "government" are also individuals, and each operates within an agency with a legally defined mission. Their authority in most cases is explicit...sometimes it is inferred and individual judgement prevails. As an increasingly diverse nation, the interests of all individuals and all groups are not congruent on every issue. Individuals in government make decisions as they think best, using a combination of intrinsic motivation and scope of mission/authority. But they are all human and can make mistakes.

One other thing.....NSA intelligence gathering/law enforcement drones, etc. I know some folks fear the NSA/CIA and law enforcement agencies collectively becoming like the "Eye of Sauron" watching everything. I am okay with that. The vast majority of information collected, although personal, is not relevant. When it comes to individuals and actionable intelligence, it has to be limited to law enforcement/counter-terrorism efforts. I am all for it. Tap my phone, look at my computer usage, watch me from the skies. No G-Man is ever going to knock on my door,because I don't do anything illegal. But if they can catch a terrorist, or a bank robber, or observe, identify, and arrest that drug dealer on the street corner selling to some high middle/high school kid....it is worth it.

Edited July 4, 2013 by DutyCat

[TaiidanTomcat]

What happened? I love what the TSA does to me. This thread has spun out of control. I'm not the most attractive guy. I have been described as "Clint Howards ugly twin" I am 210 pounds of pure muscle, with 60 lbs of sturdy protective fat, if the TSA went away, or as I fear the groping cease and the TSA gives a polite wave instead-- I will be devastated.

[jholt]

I was going to say customer service

[yeehah1]

04 07 2013

Hiya.

I work in airline security. I'm one of those slack-jawed, under-paid low-intelligence individuals whose job it is to try and provide a certain feeling of security to the average (usually) American traveller and I'm glad to do it. As are all my collegues and the ladies on the team are told NOT to pat-down the female passengers with palms-front. They're supposed to use the back of their hands to avoid accusations of 'groping'. When searching/patting-down males, we have to use the back of our hands across the chest and groin area for the same reason.

Bear in mind folks, the underwear bomber. Terrorists can and have used plastic components to create their bombs/explosive devices which cannot, obviously, be detected by the usual methods. The pat-down can help locate such. We recently received a flash about terrorists potentially carrying plastic syringes and tubes taped to the inside of their underpants. It initially may seem funny but it's not so funny when the plane goes boom.

In fact, the issues that have included are usually related to Americans themselves and not potential terrorists. We have discovered sidearm ammunition at the bottom of the carry-on bags of certain individuals who turned out to be holidaying police officers who forgot they where there!

While some feel it's all terribly inconvienant, I think that's preferable to the awful alternative. For the record, the Americans and others who travel on the flights we are responsible for are grateful and understanding of the procedures and they understand why we do what we do. As others have stated, perhaps one reason there has not been another 9/11 type attack is exactly BECAUSE of the extra layers of security that are now in place.

L.

(who returned to University several years ago and is kicking the butt of the younger generation. A-grade all round. So, not a dumb-***, then)Sweeping generalisations do nobody any good.

pps...what do you feed the women in America? We see them come through each summer and I swear...drop-dead gorgeous every one of them!

[ST0RM]

Eleven Things You No Longer See On Airplanes?

Flight Attendants who arent 90 years old

[B-17 guy]

What happened? I love what the TSA does to me. This thread has spun out of control. I'm not the most attractive guy. I have been described as "Clint Howards ugly twin" I am 210 pounds of pure muscle, with 60 lbs of sturdy protective fat, if the TSA went away, or as I fear the groping cease and the TSA gives a polite wave instead-- I will be devastated.

Government has gotten to be to big and too far overreaching, if the NSA wants to spy one me with drones, tap my phones and track my internet browsing, I DO have a problem with that and cant see how anyone else does not. Do I have anything to hide? Nope. It's just the simple fact that I am a private american citizen, leave me alone! When I do some thing wrong thats a differant story, until then stay out of my business and stay out of my rectum when I have to fly.

[TaiidanTomcat]

In before the lock is right, Vince.

The TSA was founded in response to good governance and public demand to "do something" in the wake of 9/11. The government is is not spending a fortune running the TSA to harass citizens. The TSA is in place to do several things...to add a layer of security to air travel, to deter the would be terrorist, and to show citizens that their government is making an effort to protect them. The TSA was not founded as a "power grab," or as an excuse to fondle the breasts of women, or look for your stash of marijuana. Is it a good instrument to screen for contraband? You bet it is, so why not use it to enforce the law at the same time you are screening passengers for security threats? Laws on the books and not enforced, or procedures that are not followed, will not be effective. The fact that there have been few incidents on airliners since 9/11 is a testament to the overall effectiveness of the program. They don't find much, because people know they will be screened.

Large institutions, especially government organizations, are by nature inefficient, especially when saddled with the requisite bureaucracy that politics requires in the modern era. The TSA is a new organization. It is in the learning curve of figuring out how to do its job while trying to incorporate newly developed technology. Naturally, there will be mistakes and room for refinement. I can assure you that a TSA screener has to put up with a lot more abuse EVERY DAY from impatient air travelers than he/she dishes out to you during that infrequent time when you have to go through their check point. Cut 'em some slack.

Americans, by an large, for all of their positive traits, are also spoiled. We are used to having our own way and not being inconvenienced. Individual rights, entitlement, and self indulgement is the mentality of modern day America. A greater sense of duty would be helpful. We should be cooperating with the TSA agent.....help them do their job...be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Related to the TSA discussion......people talk about the "evil government" as if it were this malevolent single minded entity trying to steal our money, control us, and generally make our lives miserable. I read some of these comments posted, and hear people opine about abusive government and I just want to roll my eyes. Many folks seem not to realize how good they have it, and have really never experienced what true abuse of power is. The US Government is not this centrally controlled, all powerful organization. It is a large and diverse group of specialized agencies under one big umbrella. Its core mission is to serve the interests of the citizens of the United States, and that includes individuals, associations/groups of individuals, and corporations made up of individuals (workers, owners, stockholders). The people that work within the "government" are also individuals, and each operates within an agency with a legally defined mission. Their authority in most cases is explicit...sometimes it is inferred and individual judgement prevails. As an increasingly diverse nation, the interests of all individuals and all groups are not congruent on every issue. Individuals in government make decisions as they think best, using a combination of intrinsic motivation and scope of mission/authority. But they are all human and can make mistakes.

One other thing.....NSA intelligence gathering/law enforcement drones, etc. I know some folks fear the NSA/CIA and law enforcement agencies collectively becoming like the "Eye of Sauron" watching everything. I am okay with that. The vast majority of information collected, although personal, is not relevant. When it comes to individuals and actionable intelligence, it has to be limited to law enforcement/counter-terrorism efforts. I am all for it. Tap my phone, look at my computer usage, watch me from the skies. No G-Man is ever going to knock on my door,because I don't do anything illegal. But if they can catch a terrorist, or a bank robber, or observe, identify, and arrest that drug dealer on the street corner selling to some high middle/high school kid....it is worth it.

Other than Slavery, segregation, prohibition, manifest destiny, limited voting rights, Jim Crow, Special Purpose entities, internment camps, the suspension of habeous corpus, non equal rights for gays, The Patriot act, always using the death penalty responsibly, holding people without trial, the government is completely trustworthy, never nefarious, and always well meaning.

No G-Man is ever going to knock on my door,because I don't do anything illegal.

did you know that using a name other than your own online is a violation of the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act? Mr... Cat? In your home state of Florida it is illegal to have a permanant marker in public, due to anti graffiti laws. It is also illegal to buy permanant markers for anyone under the age of 18.

go over 5 MPH the speedlimit? park too close to a curb or too far? report everything 100 percent accurate to the IRS to the state? There are tax codes that contradict tax codes. laws that contradict other laws. the vast bureaucracy you were just praising as so wonderfully large and well meaning that no one in the IRS is actually expected to know every nuance, law and code.

So what I am telling you is that the IRS doesn't even know all the tax laws that you so confidently said you did, and not only do you know all them you follow all of them, even the ones that contradict each other. That is pretty amazing. and thats just federal codes, state and local taxes add even more.

There are also nebulous laws like "obstruction of justice" or "disruption of the education process" "alcohol within reach" lets look at some other Florida Laws shall we?

-The state constitution allows for freedom of speech, a trial by jury, and pregnant pigs to not be confined in cages.

-One may not commit any "unnatural acts" with another person.

-Unmarried couples may not commit "lewd acts" and live together in the same residence.

-Corrupting the public morals is defined as a nuisance, and is declared a misdemeanor offense.

-Doors of all public buildings must open outwards.

-It is illegal to sell your children.

-Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the salon owner.

-A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.

-If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.

-It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a swimsuit.

-Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.

-Having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal.

-It is illegal to skateboard without a license.

-When having sex, only the missionary position is legal.

-You may not fart in a public place after 6 Pm on Thursday.

-It is considered an offense to shower naked.

-You are not allowed to break more than three dishes per day, or chip the edges of more than four cups and/or saucers.

-Oral sex is illegal.

-You may not kiss your wife's breasts.

-Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.

-It is illegal to block any traveled wagon road.

Have you ever used unsecure wifi? sung a copyrighted song in public? yep. Illegal.

[11bee]

Yikes, I think we should all stop talking about this issue before one of the gub'ment drones that are circling our homes shoots a hellfire through someones window.

I know they have my phone tapped and they follow me 24/7. These posts reinforce my long-held suspicion that the government of the United States is truly the root of all evil in the world.

Don't even get me started about their nefarious plot to melt our minds via the fluoridation of our water supply or the UN secret agents who work at my local gas station.

Don't know whether I should start shopping for a tinfoil hat or just spend more time watching the "fair and balanced" news network so I can get up to speed on the what is really going on in this country.

Thanks for the info though, this thread has been extremely educational.

BTW, with regard to the original point of this very weird thread - what I miss the most was flying on planes that were not completely filled. Remember many trans-Atlantic flights as a kid and pretty much every time, I could find an empty row of seats, grab a blanket and pillow and catch some z's. Not any more...

[Les / Creative Edge Photo]

I hear and read often from those who say "They have nothing to hide." "If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." Stuff like that. I roll my eyes at such nonsense.

Ok, you who say such things why then NOT allow the govt. and its servants openly wire inside your home with CC cameras and microphones? After all you state that you are doing nothing wrong and have nothing to hide. Lets look at it this way, virtually all crime begins as thoughts, discussions and actions inside peoples' homes or places of business. Imagine how much crime (NOT) that the govt. and its LEO's would likely catch or stop if they had such camera set ups.

Look in a FREE society one is deemed to be a free and private citizen who shall not be suspected of anything without just/probable cause. Allowing overt and covert govt intrusion into all aspects of your life WILL KILL FREEDOM! It is unconstitutional IMO! and not just in the USA but in most progressive nation states.

In society bad things happen we cannot stop all crime all the time nor should we ever want to try to build a society that endeavors to try such because said society would mean life is not worth living.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Trust me we each are and have contravened some laws and bylaws as stupid as many may be. Allowing overt and covert govt intrusion into our privacy will only imprison you out of first fear and likely out of an eventual witch hunt on you to then really imprison you.

[TonyT]

All the TSA or whoever says to me is the terrorists have won, to change ones core values and implement such search polices means they are winning, not you for bowing to their pressure...

Same countries the world over including mine, the moment you allow it to effect the way we live, they have got a result, not the other way round.

Unfortunately and sadly it was our country that caused this, they did the first ever hijack to see if it would work and the UK folded and released some prisoners, thus legitimising the hijack as a tool that works all those years back, if we hadn't given in it would have fell flat on the floor and the terrorist would as they admitted moved on from hijacking.

Edited July 4, 2013 by TonyT

[ChernayaAkula]

SOURCE

<...> No G-Man is ever going to knock on my door,because I don't do anything illegal. <...>

Yeah, because G-Men are human and humans never make mistakes. Like raiding houses over mixed-up addresses. NEVER happens.

And hope no one will think it funny to "SWAT" you, doing a prank call to 911 and a SWAT team shows up at your house.

[vince14]

Vince

[zerosystem]

contradict each other. That is pretty amazing. and thats just federal codes, state and local taxes add even more.

There are also nebulous laws like "obstruction of justice" or "disruption of the education process" "alcohol within reach" lets look at some other Florida Laws shall we?

-The state constitution allows for freedom of speech, a trial by jury, and pregnant pigs to not be confined in cages.

-One may not commit any "unnatural acts" with another person.

-Unmarried couples may not commit "lewd acts" and live together in the same residence.

-Corrupting the public morals is defined as a nuisance, and is declared a misdemeanor offense.

-Doors of all public buildings must open outwards.

-It is illegal to sell your children.

-Women may be fined for falling asleep under a hair dryer, as can the salon owner.

-A special law prohibits unmarried women from parachuting on Sunday or she shall risk arrest, fine, and/or jailing.

-If an elephant is left tied to a parking meter, the parking fee has to be paid just as it would for a vehicle.

-It is illegal to sing in a public place while attired in a swimsuit.

-Men may not be seen publicly in any kind of strapless gown.

-Having sexual relations with a porcupine is illegal.

-It is illegal to skateboard without a license.

-When having sex, only the missionary position is legal.

-You may not fart in a public place after 6 Pm on Thursday.

-It is considered an offense to shower naked.

-You are not allowed to break more than three dishes per day, or chip the edges of more than four cups and/or saucers.

-Oral sex is illegal.

-You may not kiss your wife's breasts.

-Penalty for horse theft is death by hanging.

-It is illegal to block any traveled wagon road.

Have you ever used unsecure wifi? sung a copyrighted song in public? yep. Illegal.

at least you can still use gender specific words still

[DutyCat]

Other than Slavery, segregation, prohibition, manifest destiny, limited voting rights, Jim Crow, Special Purpose entities, internment camps, the suspension of habeous corpus, non equal rights for gays, The Patriot act, always using the death penalty responsibly, holding people without trial, the government is completely trustworthy, never nefarious, and always well meaning.

I think you are missing the point. Many of the laws and policies that you quote are products of a bygone era. Some of it remains on the books, simply because lawmakers don't want to waste time bothering with some old archaic laws that are not enforced. Nothing wrong with the Patriot Act IMO.

I hear and read often from those who say "They have nothing to hide." "If you are doing nothing wrong, you have nothing to worry about." Stuff like that. I roll my eyes at such nonsense.

Ok, you who say such things why then NOT allow the govt. and its servants openly wire inside your home with CC cameras and microphones? After all you state that you are doing nothing wrong and have nothing to hide. Lets look at it this way, virtually all crime begins as thoughts, discussions and actions inside peoples' homes or places of business. Imagine how much crime (NOT) that the govt. and its LEO's would likely catch or stop if they had such camera set ups.

Look in a FREE society one is deemed to be a free and private citizen who shall not be suspected of anything without just/probable cause. Allowing overt and covert govt intrusion into all aspects of your life WILL KILL FREEDOM! It is unconstitutional IMO! and not just in the USA but in most progressive nation states.

In society bad things happen we cannot stop all crime all the time nor should we ever want to try to build a society that endeavors to try such because said society would mean life is not worth living.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.

Benjamin Franklin, Historical Review of Pennsylvania, 1759

Trust me we each are and have contravened some laws and bylaws as stupid as many may be. Allowing overt and covert govt intrusion into our privacy will only imprison you out of first fear and likely out of an eventual witch hunt on you to then really imprison you.

Ok. First of all, I never said anything about compromising privacy within the home...nothing about microphones or video cameras watching you in your living room. So lets not be ridiculous.

I am suggesting that we live in a world of technological force multipliers and non-linear threats, and we should adapt our policies and techniques accordingly. Thinking about something is not a crime, but when you start networking your communications and planning events...then it might be a good idea, just like the TSA, for the government to make it more difficult to do. It allows us to catch many events, and deter others. And the best thing is, with intelligence collection...it is transparent and harmless to the average citizen. Opposing intelligence collection for the purpose of greater public safety just because "it is not the government's business what I do" is not a supportable position, IMO. No one cares what you do as long as you aren't conspiring over the internet or telephone to commit a crime. The government has a duty to protect you. Allow them to use every reasonable tool at their disposal. Don't handcuff them. The bad guys are using the telephone and the internet. Don't make it easy for them. If it bothers you that some individual is listening in while you tell your girlfriend on the phone, email, or text what you want to do to her the next time you see her..then we can have it set up so that computers only key in on certain words or patterns.

You quote Ben Franklin talking about essential liberties. Well, to begin with, it isn't 1859. The world has evolved into a much more lethal place. Secondly, what essential liberties are you being asked to give up?.....the right to electronic communications privacy? I am sorry, but in this day and age, given the gravity of the threats we face, I do not consider that even being close to an essential liberty. We are not killing freedom. You are still free to do whatever you would normally do. There is no intrusion into your life with intelligence collection. You, as a private citizen, aren't suspected of anything, nor being accused of anything. It is simple a mass monitoring of all electronic communications so that if someone, or a group of people start communicating to conduct terrorism, we have a great chance at detecting it before it happens. Or would you rather wait until the bomb goes off in the stadium and kills hundreds of people? Yes, people can still meet clandestinely to plan criminal activities, but why make it easy? In fact, I will go one further for you...the very existence of the PRISM program should be classified. You don't tell the bad guys what intelligence collection techniques are in use to catch them....because then they communicate in other ways they deem more secure. I will go even further than that....you can even tell people that the government does not monitor personal communications, thereby baiting the bad guys into a false sense of security so that they feel comfortable using the internet an telephone. Yes, I said it...lie to the American people to increase the effectiveness of intelligence collection efforts. I am sure you are horrified at this suggestion. Disinformation/Misinformation are long recognized as effective warfare and criminal justice tactics. It happens all of the time.

Again, I emphasize that everything I suggested above, in practical terms, is transparent to us as we go about our daily lives. No real "essential liberties" are being infringed upon. The average citizen does not have the right to know everything the government is doing to protect you. Public knowledge compromises the effectiveness of a clandestine program. Let the trained experts in law enforcement and intelligence collection/analysis do their jobs. They know what works. We have neither the security clearance nor need to know, as long as their activities are considered constitutional.

And that of course is the question at hand. I have opined on what is effective. As a society, we have to let our elected leaders and court system determine what is constitutional. I personally favor the needs of the many for security over the privacy rights of the individual. Feel free to differ.

Oh, then there was this statement:

"In society bad things happen we cannot stop all crime all the time nor should we ever want to try to build a society that endeavors to try such because said society would mean life is not worth living."

The highlighted part is just idiotic, IMO. A society without crime would make life not worth living? Really? Having crime is a good thing? Nothing else life has to offer does it for you?

Edited July 5, 2013 by DutyCat

[Litvyak]

The average citizen does not have the right to know everything the government is doing to protect you.

It's as simple as this: the government - theoretically at least - is there to represent our interests and to serve us, the average citizens, not the other way around. So, yes, very definitely we have a right to know everything that the government is doing with our money on our behalf.