Acrylic Alternative to MM Acryl

[ex-USMC_Hornet_WSO]

Can anyone recommend an acrylic paint brand for painting military aircraft models that performs better than MM Acryl? I'm sick of the poor adhesion with MM Acryl.

Edited August 14, 2013 by ex-USMC_Hornet_WSO

[Mike C]

I've been using Gunze Aqueous Hobby and LifeColor. Both have very extensive FS colors. Gunze is better in every way than LifeColor, but for me supply can be problematic.

Aqueous Hobby is alcohol-based acrylic, very similar to (and can be inter-mixed with) Tamiya acrylics. Thins with either Tamiya thinner, Mr Hobby Thinner, denatured alcohol, or rubbing alcohol.

LifeColor is pure water-based acrylic. Can be inter-mixed with Citadel paints. Thins best with equal parts of demineralized/distilled water and Windex.

HTH.

[SmashedGlass]

Also, Vallejo Model Air can be mentioned, as it is becoming more readily available (heck, the Model Color line is even popping up in Hobby Lobby now). The learning curve on Vallejo is a little hinky, but once these acrylics are fully cured I find they are on like white on rice and level out to a very smooth layer. It takes some vigorous assault with sandpaper to remove it. Model Color can be airbrushed too, though takes some experimentation on thinning as it is a thicker and slightly different formula than the Air paints.

I personally use both Vallejo and Tamiya, but am also considering investing in Gunze Mr. Color lacquer-based acrylics.

[Kingoalie]

I'm slowly switching from MM acrylics to Vallejo Model Color and Vallejo Air.

[Triarius]

Pick one—MM Acryl is at the bottom of the list for quality, especially with respect to adhesion. My personal preference is for Tamiya, and I have a large, carefully kept stash of the wonderful old Polly Scale :yahoo:/> (acquired and ruined by Testors before they discontinued it entirely.:angry:/>)

That being said, acrylics of different brands almost all behave differently, and you have to learn what works with a particular brand. You can use Tamiya and Gunze pretty much the same way, but you cannot use them the way Vallejo, Lifecolor, MisterKit, or Citadel are used, as Mike C hints (the complexities are far greater than he likely knows, or wants to know!:wacko:/>).

Try them and find what, and how, they work best for you. (The manufacturers instructions are a good starting point…)

[galileo1]

Pick one—MM Acryl is at the bottom of the list for quality, especially with respect to adhesion.

Amen to that! Worst paint line I've ever tried to use, period!

[Rex]

just hurry up and get some PollyScale,,,,it is not all sold out yet

search for Floquil Polly Scale on Amazon,,,,and go to the dreaded HobbyTown USA racks (or any other hobby shop that uses Stevens International)

I have 4 local sources plus the Amazon vendors to get all the "out of production and impossible to find" Polly Scale that I want, I just bought two bottles of PS Reefer White on Saturday at my local HobbyTown

[toadwbg]

Pick one—MM Acryl is at the bottom of the list for quality, especially with respect to adhesion. My personal preference is for Tamiya, and I have a large, carefully kept stash of the wonderful old Polly Scale :yahoo:/>/> (acquired and ruined by Testors before they discontinued it entirely.:angry:/>/>)

I 100% agree with the above. I went Tamiya and could not be happier. I order mine from SprueBrothers and have them within 2-3 days.

I wouldn't sweat that Tamiya doesn't have FS color matches. For 80% of your needs they have something close enough, the other 15% you can get from mixing 2 colors and only 5% of matches would you have to use something else.

[bikerider]

Another happy Tamiya user. Sprays beautifully.

[galileo1]

Tamiya all the way for me as well. Best paints I've tried (along with Gunze acrylics). Between the two, I pretty much have all the colors I need.

Rob

[carlizle84]

Tamiya all the way for me as well. Best paints I've tried (along with Gunze acrylics). Between the two, I pretty much have all the colors I need.

Rob

Where can you get Gunze acrylics here in the US? Seems like I can only find the full line up at luckymodel or other overseas distributors. Spruebros only seems to have some of them.

[toadwbg]

Where can you get Gunze acrylics here in the US? Seems like I can only find the full line up at luckymodel or other overseas distributors. Spruebros only seems to have some of them.

The short answer is they are no longer available in the US. I'm sure there are old stocks of certain colors here and there but they are hard to find. This was apparently due to import restrictions and proper labeling of containers. I'm sure that makes zero sense to the typical modeler like you and me, but that's the way it is.

So maybe once a year I place an order with LuckyModel and stock up on any colors I need. The modern US Gull Greys are very difficult colors for me to match by mixing, so I order 2 or 3 jars of those at a time :)

[Triarius]

The short answer is they are no longer available in the US. I'm sure there are old stocks of certain colors here and there but they are hard to find. This was apparently due to import restrictions and proper labeling of containers. I'm sure that makes zero sense to the typical modeler like you and me, but that's the way it is.

So maybe once a year I place an order with LuckyModel and stock up on any colors I need. The modern US Gull Greys are very difficult colors for me to match by mixing, so I order 2 or 3 jars of those at a time

It is relatively easy to import hazardous materials, provided the paperwork is filled out with utter precision. Note that I said precision, not accuracy.

Glad to hear all the positive mentions of Lucky Model. As a professional paranoid, I tend to be wary of foreign special interest business sites, although so far I haven't had any bad experiences other than occasional confusion…:unsure:/>;)/>

[carlizle84]

The short answer is they are no longer available in the US. I'm sure there are old stocks of certain colors here and there but they are hard to find. This was apparently due to import restrictions and proper labeling of containers. I'm sure that makes zero sense to the typical modeler like you and me, but that's the way it is.

So maybe once a year I place an order with LuckyModel and stock up on any colors I need. The modern US Gull Greys are very difficult colors for me to match by mixing, so I order 2 or 3 jars of those at a time

That's what I'm going to do. I'm tired of fighting MM Acrylics, but I don't want to switch to enamels or lacquers. Too bad Tamiya doesn't make a US aircraft line of paints, because I love me some Tamiya acrylics. Looking at Gunze's colors, I can get almost all of the grays I need to do modern US jets.

[carlizle84]

Also, if you want to see what colors match other companies paints, this link is EXCELLENT.

http://www.paint4models.com/?r=sprue

[toadwbg]

That's what I'm going to do. I'm tired of fighting MM Acrylics, but I don't want to switch to enamels or lacquers. Too bad Tamiya doesn't make a US aircraft line of paints, because I love me some Tamiya acrylics. Looking at Gunze's colors, I can get almost all of the grays I need to do modern US jets.

Tamiya comes out with new color matches once evey 7-8 blue moons. The've done some new colors for their newer kit releases like the 1/32 Spitfire. Why they havn't done modern US aircraft camo in their acrylics is a lost opportunity for them. I thought they would have when they did their F-16C the other year.

[ex-USMC_Hornet_WSO]

The short answer is they are no longer available in the US. I'm sure there are old stocks of certain colors here and there but they are hard to find. This was apparently due to import restrictions and proper labeling of containers. I'm sure that makes zero sense to the typical modeler like you and me, but that's the way it is.

So maybe once a year I place an order with LuckyModel and stock up on any colors I need. The modern US Gull Greys are very difficult colors for me to match by mixing, so I order 2 or 3 jars of those at a time :)/>

I just looked at the Lucky Model website under paints and didn't see Gunze Aqueous. Have they stopped selling it?

[dragonlance]

I just looked at the Lucky Model website under paints and didn't see Gunze Aqueous. Have they stopped selling it?

Look again.

Paints->MR.Hobby->Acrylic Paint

Vedran

[ex-USMC_Hornet_WSO]

Look again.

Paints->MR.Hobby->Acrylic Paint

Vedran

OK, got it. Didn't know Mr. Hobby = Gunze Aqueous

[Mike C]

I believe Mr Hobby is acrylic pigment in lacquer carrier. Aqueous Hobby Color is acrylic pigment in alcohol carrier. Or something like that. Triarius can give much better explanation here.

[Triarius]

I believe Mr Hobby is acrylic pigment in lacquer carrier. Aqueous Hobby Color is acrylic pigment in alcohol carrier. Or something like that. Triarius can give much better explanation here.

Only to a limited extent, as I haven't used Gunze in quite some time. However, some clarification on general grounds:

There is no such thing as an "acrylic pigment." Acrylic polymers are the binder, or "film-forming" component. Many are soluble in either water or an alcohol.

"Mr. Hobby" may be a lacquer, or not. It may be a so-called "acrylic lacquer"—a technically inaccurate name, probably eructated by the same ad-wonks who came up with "enamel lacquer" and "acrylic enamel'—as if paint terminology wasn't confusing enough.

If its an acrylic, it isn't a true lacquer. Acrylics cure by polymerization. Lacquers cure by drying. Some modelers (and a lot of ad-wonks) are confused by the fact that some acrylic polymers are readily dissolved by their primary solvent, and can then (as far as the naked eye can see) redeposited as an apparent film. The chemistry, however, is not the same, nor is the "film."

However, it is sometimes possible to combine a true lacquer with either an acrylic or an "enamel" polymer. {"Enamel" is a widely accepted term for non-acrylic paints that was originally created by an early ad-wonk to imply that the coating surface was a hard and durable as enamel-ware (glass).} The advantage of this is rapid dry to tack-free, and the potential for a higher gloss finish in a gloss paint. It is also possible to do this with acrylic polymer paints.

By "film" I mean a contiguous, homogeneous, nearly monomolecular coating. When you use lacquer thinner to thin an acrylic, then spray it on a model, you are essentially dissolving the plastic surface slightly, and embedding the pigment in it.

"Aqueous Hobby Color" appears to be an acrylic, soluble in alcohol, possibly water, or both.

It is also possible to create an acrylic polymer soluble only in a proprietary blend of solvents. This could also be the case with the former line of coatings.

If you are looking for something definitely acrylic, then the term "aqueous" is a key. If it's labeled as aqueous, it is likely either an acrylic, an acrylic latex, or a latex (unlikely in hobby paints) coating.

Always bear in mind that, except for the specific technical information, labels are written by ad-wonks, who understand nothing but the need to sell a product.

Hope this helps, or at least doesn't add to the confusion.

Edited August 19, 2013 by Triarius

[ex-USMC_Hornet_WSO]

Only to a limited extent, as I haven't used Gunze in quite some time. However, some clarification on general grounds:

There is no such thing as an "acrylic pigment." Acrylic polymers are the binder, or "film-forming" component. Many are soluble in either water or an alcohol.

"Mr. Hobby" may be a lacquer, or not. It may be a so-called "acrylic lacquer"—a technically inaccurate name, probably eructated by the same ad-wonks who came up with "enamel lacquer" and "acrylic enamel'—as if paint terminology wasn't confusing enough.

If its an acrylic, it isn't a true lacquer. Acrylics cure by polymerization. Lacquers cure by drying. Some modelers (and a lot of ad-wonks) are confused by the fact that some acrylic polymers are readily dissolved by their primary solvent, and can then (as far as the naked eye can see) redeposited as an apparent film. The chemistry, however, is not the same, nor is the "film."

However, it is sometimes possible to combine a true lacquer with either an acrylic or an "enamel" polymer. {"Enamel" is a widely accepted term for non-acrylic paints that was originally created by an early ad-wonk to imply that the coating surface was a hard and durable as enamel-ware (glass).} The advantage of this is rapid dry to tack-free, and the potential for a higher gloss finish in a gloss paint. It is also possible to do this with acrylic polymer paints.

By "film" I mean a contiguous, homogeneous, nearly monomolecular coating. When you use lacquer thinner to thin an acrylic, then spray it on a model, you are essentially dissolving the plastic surface slightly, and embedding the pigment in it.

"Aqueous Hobby Color" appears to be an acrylic, soluble in alcohol, possibly water, or both.

It is also possible to create an acrylic polymer soluble only in a proprietary blend of solvents. This could also be the case with the former line of coatings.

If you are looking for something definitely acrylic, then the term "aqueous" is a key. If it's labeled as aqueous, it is likely either an acrylic, an acrylic latex, or a latex (unlikely in hobby paints) coating.

Always bear in mind that, except for the specific technical information, labels are written by ad-wonks, who understand nothing but the need to sell a product.

Hope this helps, or at least doesn't add to the confusion.

Thanks. That helps a lot. I've never used Gunze Aqueous before, but I have some on the way from Lucky Model. What are the best thinner and brush cleaner for this paint?

[Mike C]

Thanks. That helps a lot. I've never used Gunze Aqueous before, but I have some on the way from Lucky Model. What are the best thinner and brush cleaner for this paint?

Best thinner is either Gunze's own thinner (Mr Hobby or Mr Color Self-Levelling Thinner), Tamiya X-20A Acrylic Thinner, methylated spirit, or isopropyl alcohol. Personally, I predominantly use Tamiya X-20A to thin Gunze Aqueous, or occasionally methylated spirit. I've never used Mr Hobby/Mr Color thinner before.

I exclusively use methylated spirit to clean my airbrush and normal brush after using Gunze/Tamiya acrylic paint.

HTH.

[Triarius]

For Tamiya I've always used 90% isopropyl with a small amount of retarder for thinning to spraying viscosity. Based on what Mike C said, I assume this would work well for Gunze.

For clean up of all acrylic paints, I use a mixture of Simple Green, water, and Windex or equivalent: 1:1:2 ratio, sometimes called "Magic."

[toadwbg]

For Tamiya I've always used 90% isopropyl with a small amount of retarder for thinning to spraying viscosity. Based on what Mike C said, I assume this would work well for Gunze.

For clean up of all acrylic paints, I use a mixture of Simple Green, water, and Windex or equivalent: 1:1:2 ratio, sometimes called "Magic."

It's frightening sometimes how you and I do things exactly the same. You must be my long-lost twin over the boarder in Illinois.