raftav Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Foxmulder, Thank you very much for opinion! The bending of PE is a great idea! But technically, we cannot make it! According to the dimensions of R-77, the thickness of the fins should about 1.00 mm. With our technology for PE, the maximum thickness with through holes, is about 0.25 mm. That means, even we bend 2 PE together (only 0.50 mm thick), it is only half of the thickness of the real fins. Then, we need to put 2 bended PE together to have 1.00 mm thickness. This is extremely difficult for modellers to glue it together. We choose not to do so. One more consideration, at the position you bend the PE, there will a line looks like round shape, which is not appeared in the real fins. If you file/sand it off, the PE may separate into 2 pieces again. This may be another headache for modellers too. Of course, "can see another side" is really the point! If you still have further better idea, please let me know! Hello all, Why don't mould the R77 fins with empty squares, but moulded in plastic on a plate basis on one side, and then let the modeller saw it off from the basis, or sand off the basis until he gets the opened square holes, like he would do with a resin part? regards raphael Edited June 21, 2015 by raftav Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Crazy Snap Captain Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Edited June 21, 2015 by Crazy Snap Captain Quote Link to post Share on other sites
ijozic Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Foxmulder, Thank you very much for opinion! The bending of PE is a great idea!But technically, we cannot make it! According to the dimensions of R-77, the thickness of the fins should about 1.00 mm. With our technology for PE, the maximum thickness with through holes, is about 0.25 mm. That means, even we bend 2 PE together (only 0.50 mm thick), it is only half of the thickness of the real fins. Then, we need to put 2 bended PE together to have 1.00 mm thickness. This is extremely difficult for modellers to glue it together. We choose not to do so. One more consideration, at the position you bend the PE, there will a line looks like round shape, which is not appeared in the real fins. If you file/sand it off, the PE may separate into 2 pieces again. This may be another headache for modellers too. For folding, maybe you can change the location of the folding area - e.g. the outward 1 mm panel would be in the middle and then the grilles would fold on the bottom side which will be glued to the missile. http://postimg.org/image/71x9t8eqt/ Edited June 21, 2015 by ijozic Quote Link to post Share on other sites
chek Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 mechanism from the live ones, you can see how base rotates. Thanks for those photos, they show how those fins work (as expected) very clearly. The show dummy's lack of fin mechanism in the earlier photo was confusing. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Yeah, J's picture clearly shows a dummy but he was just demonstrating how the fins looked. Also keep in mind, with 4 missiles, 4 fins per missile and each being a double; it would all take a lot of space on a PE sheet. I think this is much a do about nothing overall. You are all talking like MiG-31BM actually uses R-77/R-77-1... :) BM can in theory carry them, but those missiles have yet to find their way to operational units. So there isn't a single picture of an operational MiG-31BM with R-77-1. It is a missile that can be used in theory, and probably will in the future, but not yet. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Either you didnt understand me or you are trolling. It will be just bending a PE part onto itself. Even I, with limited skill, can do it easily. I can't see any "easy" way to bend PE into that complex a shape at virtually any size, much less a couple of millimeters long. I'm completely serious. Look at the shape in the photograph and tell me how that's going to be "easy" to reproduce in PE. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hello all, Why don't mould the R77 fins with empty squares, but moulded in plastic on a plate basis on one side, and then let the modeller saw it off from the basis, or sand off the basis until he gets the opened square holes, like he would do with a resin part? regards raphael Haha, Raphael, You can saw it with the current plastic design, if you can. Plastic is much more harder than resin. :D :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raftav Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) Haha, Raphael, You can saw it with the current plastic design, if you can. Plastic is much more harder than resin. :D/>/>/>/>/>/> :D/>/>/>/>/>/> Hi Sio Here's what I mean. To me, nothing impossible using a modeller saw (tiger style). The question is what would be the fineness of the lattice allowed by injected plastic ? raphael Edited June 21, 2015 by raftav Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Flankerman Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 (edited) The answer is very simple.......... just put covers on them and paint red.... :whistle:/> On the wing..... http://bastion-opk.ru/kartinki/R-77_MAKS-2011_04.JPG Ken Edited June 21, 2015 by Flankerman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hi Sio Here's what I mean. To me, nothing impossible using a modeller saw (tiger style). The question is what would be the fineness of the lattice allowed by injected plastic ? raphael Haha, Raphael, With this way, the grids inside the fin, is out of plastic limitation. We cannot make plastic that thin, or the draft angle will be too large. So that, you won't see any hole from another side. Sio Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 The answer is very simple.......... just put covers on them and paint red.... :whistle:/>/> On the wing..... http://bastion-opk.ru/kartinki/R-77_MAKS-2011_04.JPG Ken Haha. GOOD WAY! :D :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Or just don't use R-77-1, because they aren't used on the real plane... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Well yeah, but... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Or just don't use R-77-1, because they aren't used on the real plane... They will come with the kit. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Well yeah, but... https://www.facebook.com/avantgardemodelkits Quote Link to post Share on other sites
griffon Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hello. http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/648143.pdf Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 And *still* they're not carried by the MiG-31 :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Hello. :whistle:/> http://www.eduard.com/store/out/media/648143.pdf Hello...... This is also a good way! :D :D Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxmulder_ms Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Foxmulder, Thank you very much for opinion! The bending of PE is a great idea! But technically, we cannot make it! According to the dimensions of R-77, the thickness of the fins should about 1.00 mm. With our technology for PE, the maximum thickness with through holes, is about 0.25 mm. That means, even we bend 2 PE together (only 0.50 mm thick), it is only half of the thickness of the real fins. Then, we need to put 2 bended PE together to have 1.00 mm thickness. This is extremely difficult for modellers to glue it together. We choose not to do so. One more consideration, at the position you bend the PE, there will a line looks like round shape, which is not appeared in the real fins. If you file/sand it off, the PE may separate into 2 pieces again. This may be another headache for modellers too. Of course, "can see another side" is really the point! If you still have further better idea, please let me know! Then I guess question comes to which one is a better feature to have: "1mm, correct dimension for the depth of the fin" or "the see through lattice structure"? For me what makes this missile an attractive modelling subject is "the see through lattice structure". Therefore, I prefer a PE part even with incorrect depth. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
foxmulder_ms Posted June 21, 2015 Share Posted June 21, 2015 Foxmulder, Thank you very much for opinion! The bending of PE is a great idea! But technically, we cannot make it! According to the dimensions of R-77, the thickness of the fins should about 1.00 mm. With our technology for PE, the maximum thickness with through holes, is about 0.25 mm. That means, even we bend 2 PE together (only 0.50 mm thick), it is only half of the thickness of the real fins. Then, we need to put 2 bended PE together to have 1.00 mm thickness. This is extremely difficult for modellers to glue it together. We choose not to do so. One more consideration, at the position you bend the PE, there will a line looks like round shape, which is not appeared in the real fins. If you file/sand it off, the PE may separate into 2 pieces again. This may be another headache for modellers too. Of course, "can see another side" is really the point! If you still have further better idea, please let me know! By the way, if we want to be perfect... You can design a piece in PE that will be bend like letter "M" without any gluing... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I get what you're saying, and I'd love an open lattice too, but a 4-layer PE part will look kind of terrible. The edges will be wonky - PE doesn't etch at a sharp, 90` angle - and almost impossible to clean up. *If* it's going to be PE, you pretty much have to have pieces that slot together: I've done a few for some 1/43 cars, and they are invariably an enormous pain to assemble. Even more so when you're making 8 - 16 of the things (and these are TINY)... It's doable, but it'd be a miserable chore. Really, the only way to feasibly replicate the parts is in resin - you can tediously make one perfect grid fin, then cast to your heart's content. The Eduard missiles are pretty cheap and quite nice, so a worthwhile upgrade if you really need open lattices. I wouldn't be shocked to see quick boost release a set of resin fins, too, as it'd make a simple upgrade. It'd be nice to see AMK include some resin parts for this detail, but given the costs and difficulties associated with resin production, I can certainly see why they wouldn't. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Sio Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 I get what you're saying, and I'd love an open lattice too, but a 4-layer PE part will look kind of terrible. The edges will be wonky - PE doesn't etch at a sharp, 90` angle - and almost impossible to clean up. *If* it's going to be PE, you pretty much have to have pieces that slot together: I've done a few for some 1/43 cars, and they are invariably an enormous pain to assemble. Even more so when you're making 8 - 16 of the things (and these are TINY)... It's doable, but it'd be a miserable chore. Really, the only way to feasibly replicate the parts is in resin - you can tediously make one perfect grid fin, then cast to your heart's content. The Eduard missiles are pretty cheap and quite nice, so a worthwhile upgrade if you really need open lattices. I wouldn't be shocked to see quick boost release a set of resin fins, too, as it'd make a simple upgrade. It'd be nice to see AMK include some resin parts for this detail, but given the costs and difficulties associated with resin production, I can certainly see why they wouldn't. Good work! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
raftav Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) Foxmulder, Thank you very much for opinion! The bending of PE is a great idea! But technically, we cannot make it! According to the dimensions of R-77, the thickness of the fins should about 1.00 mm. With our technology for PE, the maximum thickness with through holes, is about 0.25 mm. That means, even we bend 2 PE together (only 0.50 mm thick), it is only half of the thickness of the real fins. Then, we need to put 2 bended PE together to have 1.00 mm thickness. This is extremely difficult for modellers to glue it together. We choose not to do so. One more consideration, at the position you bend the PE, there will a line looks like round shape, which is not appeared in the real fins. If you file/sand it off, the PE may separate into 2 pieces again. This may be another headache for modellers too. Of course, "can see another side" is really the point! If you still have further better idea, please let me know! Hi all Profimodeller choosed to glue four identical parts to get the thickness for their R-77 fins (1/32). No bending. Maybe you could add a template to the PE SHEET so as to get them aligned when glueing: regards raphael Edited June 22, 2015 by raftav Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Berkut Posted June 22, 2015 Share Posted June 22, 2015 (edited) ...and it can be considered hell on Earth to glue 4 of those, 4 times, on 4 missiles. All for a weapon, once again, that isn't operational on MiG-31BM. Edited June 22, 2015 by Berkut Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 23, 2015 Share Posted June 23, 2015 Or you could just not worry, since the MiG-31 doesn't carry them... :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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