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Hajo L.

F-4E Phantom questions and building process

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After completing the F-4C/D I´m turning to the F-4E now.

I´m using the Hasegawa kit KA6, which features three versions:

- 141st TFS 108th TFW New Yersey ANG

- Gun Smoke '89 3rd TFW PACAF

- WC aircraft 110th TFS 131st TFW Missouri ANG

However, I´m going to use a decal set from PrintScale and build F-4E 67-0210, 58th TFS 432nd TRW from 1972.

What changes do I have to make to the kit to reflect a Vietnam-bird in SEA-camo?

HAJO

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The big differences will be the wings and the 20 mm cannon muzzle.

The early F-4E’s had a short angled muzzle on the 20 mm cannon faring, not the long tubular one like the one on the box top. I’m not sure if the kit has a short muzzle, but that would be the one to use.

The wings are the major issue because this kit has the latter (Post 1972) slatted wings, not the standard F-4C/D type wing often referred to as the “hard wing”. You would have to use a set of wings from the C/D kits or any of the standard F-4EJ kits (not the EJ-Kie kits) or modify the wings by removing the combat slats on the outer wing panels and not adding the flap actuator fairings on the main wing under sides.

And lastly, depending on the bird, you most likely will have to leave off the TEISO tube on the port wing.

HTH

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Hajo, if you happen to have a RoG F-4F kit, the original slatless outer wings from the initial RF-4E incarnation are included amongst the unused parts.

For the shortpre-Midas gun muzzle of most Vietnam-era F-4E's, use Hasegawa's part M5 instead of M2/3.

HTH,

Andre

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By 1972, they would have had the Midas muzzle, wouldn't they?

Ben

Possibly the long Midas muzzle was showing up stateside by then, but all of the pictures I have seen of the "In Country" F-4Es show the short muzzles.

We are talking about the Phantom so anything is possible....

I know that the 33 TFW F-4E Capt. Ritchie shot down the two MiG 21s with had the short muzzle and that a/c was a summer help transfer in the spring of '72.

BTW there were some 13 or so slat equipped birds in Viet Nam late in 1972 so maybe they would have had the Midas muzzle too.

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Possibly the long Midas muzzle was showing up stateside by then, but all of the pictures I have seen of the "In Country" F-4Es show the short muzzles.

We are talking about the Phantom so anything is possible....

The 388th TFW had some MIDAS equipped jets, e.g. Don Logans Jet (JV tailcode featured on a TB sheet in 72 scale) which was later converted to Geasel and one of the very phinal F-4s in stateside service.

Regards

Scout

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The 388th TFW had some MIDAS equipped jets, e.g. Don Logans Jet (JV tailcode featured on a TB sheet in 72 scale) which was later converted to Geasel and one of the very phinal F-4s in stateside service.

Regards

Scout

Yep you’re right.

I just got home and was looking through the pictures again and it would seem I suffered a memory fault along with a GPF error. I stand corrected as it looks something like a 60% to 40% mix of Midas (long) to short muzzles. I apologize for the miss info earlier....

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Thank you guys, very helpful!

Andre, I don´t have the Revell F-4F, and even though I think I will buy one someday, I won´t do it now. But I already placed postings in my german forums, asking for someone to give me his unslatted wings.

On the underside of wing there are three teardrop-shaped pieces on each side, have these been on the old F-4Es as well?

HAJO

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Andre, I don´t have the Revell F-4F, and even though I think I will buy one someday, I won´t do it now. But I already placed postings in my german forums, asking for someone to give me his unslatted wings.

Should you be unable to locate a set there... you know who to ask. ;)/>

On the underside of wing there are three teardrop-shaped pieces on each side, have these been on the old F-4Es as well?

Nope, those are (most likely, from your description - parts Q2/4, right?) the actuator fairings for the slats.

No slats, no actuators.

HTH,

Andre

Edited by Andre

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Andre, thank you for the offer, but I already have someone in the Flugzeugforum who offered me his help. From the picture he posted it looks like he´s having enough wing-parts to equip an entire Air Wing... ;)

HAJO

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I´m checking on some other parts - are they supposed to go on an early F-4E?

Q1 and Q8 (coming to the rear ends of the pylons)

M1 and P1 (most likely antennas, on the back of the aircraft)

W11 (mirror for the backseater)

Thanks!

HAJO

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Not sure of the exact date but this picture of 67-0210 was probably taken around 1972:

http://www.5053phantoms.com/photos/displayimage.php?pid=9484

Hard wing, Midas long muzzle, no reinforcing plates on the stabilisers (post-Vietnam only) and RWR on the fin cap.

I´m checking on some other parts - are they supposed to go on an early F-4E?

Q1 and Q8 (coming to the rear ends of the pylons)

M1 and P1 (most likely antennas, on the back of the aircraft)

W11 (mirror for the backseater)

Thanks!

HAJO

Parts Q1/Q8 are chaff dispensers, M1 and P1 are part of the ARN-101 digital upgrade. These are only found on late F-4s. The above picture has no rear view mirror for the WSO.

BTW when Steve Ritchie & Chuck DeBellevue scored their double MiG-21 kill 67-0362 also had the long muzzle; there's a couple of photos taken on the day here:

http://martycavato.smugmug.com/Military/Udorn-Thailand-1971-72/6823442_sqPLrQ/436068578_hB6tZk2#!i=436083131&k=VwCp53t

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I´m checking on some other parts - are they supposed to go on an early F-4E?

Q1 and Q8 (coming to the rear ends of the pylons)

M1 and P1 (most likely antennas, on the back of the aircraft)

W11 (mirror for the backseater)

Thanks!

HAJO

All: no.

(That was quick. :)/> )

Q1/8 are chaff / flare dispensers that weren't fitted during the SEA conflict, M1 is the also post-Vietnam era ARN-101 digital navigation system antenna fitted to some late F-4E's, external mirror as per W11 was not generally fitted to 'Nam-era 'E's, check a great pic here.

HTH!,

Andre

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Here's a couple shots of F-4s at Korat:

scan0109-2.jpg

scan0410.jpg

scan0076.jpg

I took these in 1974, but as far as I know the only thing that was changed on them was the tail code to "JJ"

If Ritchie did some killing in 362, what accounts for the markings on 463? Who else was busy with that ship? As far as I remember, kill markings did not get transferred to another aircraft.

scan0168-1.jpg

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2 of those kills were Ritchie's,,,,4 of them were other pilots

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Thank you all for the great pictures!

Now it´s a short impression from the current build. I over-flashed the picture a little bit, but you´ll get the idea:

IMG_4073_zps53916e52.jpg

HAJO

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You can practically read the gages. How are you doing the instruments and controls?

Rex, do you know anything about the drone kill?

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no, I didn't dig very deep

once I saw two kills by Ritchie with the 362, and two kills by other than Ritchie with 463, I stopped looking

I just glanced at the lists in Koku-fan's Vietnam book and the Squadron "...and Kill Migs" book,,,I didn't dig

is that sixth kill a drone kill?

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The big differences will be the wings and the 20 mm cannon muzzle.

The early F-4E’s had a short angled muzzle on the 20 mm cannon faring, not the long tubular one like the one on the box top. I’m not sure if the kit has a short muzzle, but that would be the one to use.

The wings are the major issue because this kit has the latter (Post 1972) slatted wings, not the standard F-4C/D type wing often referred to as the “hard wing”. You would have to use a set of wings from the C/D kits or any of the standard F-4EJ kits (not the EJ-Kie kits) or modify the wings by removing the combat slats on the outer wing panels and not adding the flap actuator fairings on the main wing under sides.

And lastly, depending on the bird, you most likely will have to leave off the TEISO tube on the port wing.

HTH

The Hasy 72nd F-4EJ/KAI kit CAN be used for a hard wing 'E'. I have two for that purpose. They are the same as the old Thunderbirds F-4E release, with an extra sprue for the Japanese version, with the few appropriate parts. But the complete early hard-wing F-4E is there. And, it has both gun muzzles, as well as both sets of outer non-slatted wings. One set original, the other for the KAI. And it is available. There were at least two releases with different markings. Those are the two I have. I compared the parts to the T-Bird release and the parts are the same.

Just wanted to correct that information.

DET1460

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2 of those kills were Ritchie's,,,,4 of them were other pilots

1st March 72 Kittinger/Hodgdon AIM-7 - MiG-21

16th April 72 Olmsted/Maas AIM-7 - MiG-21

8th May 72 Crews/Jones AIM-7 - MiG-21

10th May Ritchie/DeBellevue AIM-7 - MiG-21

28th August 72 Ritchie/DeBellevue AIM-7 - MiG-21

15th October 72 McCoy/Brown AIM-9 MiG-21

And as one sees not only Ritchie or the pilot was responsible.The F-4 was a crew aircraft and required considerable coordination between front and backseat.

Even Ritchie admitted that. And he was not necessarily known in the USAF to be humble.

Regards

Scout

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@Ikar: I used the kits decals for the gauges and instruments. I liked the Monogram-cockpit better, though. It came with raised details.

HAJO

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Sorry, not much done during the weekend, enjoyed it in other ways. ;)

Last thing I did was recruiting the crew and plce it in the cockpit. As usually (that´s my experience now with the third kit of the F-4) the seats are not high enough. Well, thefront seat was OK, but the back-seat had to be raised by a half milimeter again.

IMG_4074_zps15b3f4f7.jpg

IMG_4075_zpsba3ee4fc.jpg

More to come soon, stay on this channel! :)

HAJO

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Current status of the model:

IMG_4083_zpse0270d1c.jpg

The un-slatted wings will hopefully arrive with the mail today.

Then I have a question: There are two little "bumps" under the intake, each on one side, they can be seen here:

IMG_4085_zpsb84ba7ce.jpg

These are common on older "E"s as well, right?

Then I made up my mind about something that´s still a bit away, the weapon-load. Initially I planned on using the two outer wing tanks, and then load one inboard pylon with a Pave Knife, the other with a GBU-10, and hang a MER with M117 on the centerline.

Problem is: I don´t have a proper centerline-pylon, and I could think that an aircraft equipped with a Pave Knife-pod will not do any "dumb groundbombing" with M117s.

So my other idea involves only dumb-bombs, but then I will have to get my holds on two outboard wing-pylons. Can I simply cut off the tanks and use their pylons?

HAJO

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The two "bumps" under the intake are a NAVY/MARINE ECM suite that are not on the USAF F-4E.

Dave

F-4C/E crew chief 1987-1991

Same for those other two bumps just aft of the main gear struts.

Ben

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