Camouflage Wars Part VII

[Johnopfor]

It seems like the most effective camouflage is the US Navy blue cammies.........which is a terrifying proposition if you fall off the ship.....

[Trigger]

Making progress...

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/03/army-issues-new-camo-deployers/25241363/

Still wondering about the merit of the "one pattern works anywhere" mindset.

One thing we learned, we did significant testing, is that pattern is very important in protecting ourselves in a variety of environments," Odierno said. "That's why we're going to it. It gives us an advantage in protecting us as we get concealment as we operate in a variety of theaters."

Ten years and $5B later....let's try an all-in-one camouflage again!

[Exhausted]

I wonder how long Marpat will last. It's better than ACU but it has some weaknesses... I think that the desert Marpat would benefit from larger areas of light grey.

Scorpion 2, in TT's pic, looks very effective in arid areas, whether woodland or desert.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Exhausted

[TaiidanTomcat]

Ten years and $5B later....let's try an all-in-one camouflage again!

They could have spent $1.25 billion each on 4 different colors/styles...

One pattern... one pattern...

One pattern.

Edited April 6, 2015 by TaiidanTomcat

[fulcrum1]

Making progress...

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/careers/army/2015/04/03/army-issues-new-camo-deployers/25241363/

Still wondering about the merit of the "one pattern works anywhere" mindset. Whilst a huge improvement compared to the current pattern, looking at the pics of some troops deployed to Eastern Europe, the new OCP seems to be a bit too brownish. Maybe after another 5 billion is spent, the army will figure out that woodland BDU's work best for wooded areas and the DCU's work best for deserts?

They're the FR multicams, not the new stuff. The reasons 2CR's and 4ID's look brown is because both that BDE and DIV were deployed together last year in Kandahar, after you wash the FR's several times they look poo brown. Only new Soldiers would be getting the RFI, everyone else is using the same equipment they deployed with. 3/4ABCT deployed to Kuwait in multicam/ocp and 1/10IBCT who is on the patch chart taking over for the 82nd in Iraq will be rocking them as well. That $5 billion number has more to do with advancements in kit rather than a pattern.

Also, I found this statement to be a bit much:

Odierno also said the new camouflage uniforms are "cost neutral."

"The money we're spending on buying these uniforms will be the same as we spend on the new pattern," he said. "The costs are about the same."

Technically, he is correct but what he neglects to mention are the millions (billions?) that have to be spent on replacing all the ACU pattern rucks, ammo pouches, helmet covers, cold weather gear, plate carriers, etc, etc with the new pattern.

Evey year the Army buys a certain amount of kit for Soldiers regardless of pattern. So the allocation will look something like....1st year will see the kit going to deploying Soldiers and Basic Trainees, 2nd year you'll see maneuver Brigades, 3rd year will see Sustainment BDEs, etc. Some dudes will be running around with mismatched stuff for several years until you get the supply out of the inventory. The extra money that would be spent would be if the Army decides to dye existing ACU kit, but I don't know if that's still on the table with the large amount of OCP kit we have in the inventory. Really, the upfront costs will be on the Soldiers who will fork over close to $500 for three sets and a pair of the darker boots and darker colored shirt. However, all enlisted Soldiers get a clothing allowance per year.....so its really just the officers who have to fork over the cash.

[Trigger]

MARPAT's been around since, what, 2002? And the Navy's variants within the past 10 years or so. How's that been working out, having a distinct desert/arid color scheme and a woodland scheme?

[11bee]

How's that been working out, having a distinct desert/arid color scheme and a woodland scheme?

Bunch of Divas if you ask me. "We can't figure out how to fight in a single camo uniform, we need two different patterns and then just to mess with things further, we'll dye all our kit a third color".

Talk about high maintenance....

Edited April 6, 2015 by 11bee

[Exhausted]

This looks like a soldier from 2011 went back in time to train soldiers in 2001. Then it looks like only one of the trainees gets the concept of time travel, and is using his knife hand to demonstrate which direction the future goes.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Exhausted

[TaiidanTomcat]

Could probably be its own thread, but the Army is trying to get this whole procurement thing down:

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/02/army-changing-how-it-does-requirements-mcmaster/

[11bee]

Could probably be its own thread, but the Army is trying to get this whole procurement thing down:

http://breakingdefense.com/2015/02/army-changing-how-it-does-requirements-mcmaster/

Interesting. Didn't know the Army was still pushing for a light (airborne) armored vehicle. I think that program will be as challenging as the Marines' AAV replacement. Pretty tough to find a mix of mobility, firepower, protection and make it air droppable. The old Sheridan did the job (barely) but it's cannon / sighting system was a maintenace nightmare. I think at the end, they did away with the missile and it could only fire HE rounds.

[Exhausted]

Does it have to be tracked?

[Johnopfor]

The old Sheridan did the job (barely) but it's cannon / sighting system was a maintenace nightmare. I think at the end, they did away with the missile and it could only fire HE rounds.

Hell, we (OPFOR) had more use for the Sheridan than the Airborne, and the only thing that it fired were smoke canisters and brass blanks....

[FM-Whip]

Bunch of Divas if you ask me. "We can't figure out how to fight in a single camo uniform, we need two different patterns and then just to mess with things further, we'll dye all our kit a third color".

Talk about high maintenance....

The US Army is the only service that if they needed a snow camo uniform would have 10 years of studies done internally (based on extensive stakeholder input from everybody except the grunts), would come up with five or six types (Arctic white? Antarctic white? Desert white? Temperate white? Jungle white?), would test them for several years, and then not be able to decide what shade of white was best. The whole thing would then be put out to private industry to solve, with a multi-year contract period resulting in expensive, digital-lozenge shapes/shades of white (designed by a leading clothing designer to be Pantone-compliant and with manufacturing spread across all 50 states), none of which would work as well as the USMC design, which would consist of old bedsheets cut and sewn in the right places to make snow ponchos, which would have been done at unit level 20 years prior.

For a green camo uniform they could just sew a bunch of $10,000 bills together and it would be cheaper and probably more effective.

John Hairell

tpn18@yahoo.com

[Horrido]

Interesting. Didn't know the Army was still pushing for a light (airborne) armored vehicle. I think that program will be as challenging as the Marines' AAV replacement. Pretty tough to find a mix of mobility, firepower, protection and make it air droppable.

M-8 Buford in Turkish:

Stingray Light Tank:

The US Army is the only service that if they needed a snow camo uniform would have 10 years of studies done internally (based on extensive stakeholder input from everybody except the grunts), would come up with five or six types (Arctic white? Antarctic white? Desert white? Temperate white? Jungle white?), would test them for several years, and then not be able to decide what shade of white was best. The whole thing would then be put out to private industry to solve, with a multi-year contract period resulting in expensive, digital-lozenge shapes/shades of white (designed by a leading clothing designer to be Pantone-compliant and with manufacturing spread across all 50 states), none of which would work as well as the USMC design, which would consist of old bedsheets cut and sewn in the right places to make snow ponchos, which would have been done at unit level 20 years prior.

http://demandware.ed...bj_296_main.jpg

For a green camo uniform they could just sew a bunch of $10,000 bills together and it would be cheaper and probably more effective.

The politicians have screwed-up the colors in their quest to dispense the ultimate Monopoly money, so the greenback isn't even really green anymore. (But, I concur, it would STILL be more effective.)

Edited April 9, 2015 by Horrido

[11bee]

M-8 Buford in Turkish:

Completely forgot about the M8. Seems like it would have done the job nicely, if it hadn't been cancelled shortsightedly by the Army.

Not sure if the 105mm gun would still be a tank killer these days, especially against the latest Russian designs. The Israelis came out with an armored chassis that mounted a Spike anti-tank missile launcher, wonder if that might be the way of the future, vrs going with a cannon?

Edited September 6, 2015 by 11bee

[Trigger]

The US Army is the only service that if they needed a snow camo uniform would have 10 years of studies done internally (based on extensive stakeholder input from everybody except the grunts), would come up with five or six types (Arctic white? Antarctic white? Desert white? Temperate white? Jungle white?), would test them for several years, and then not be able to decide what shade of white was best. The whole thing would then be put out to private industry to solve, with a multi-year contract period resulting in expensive, digital-lozenge shapes/shades of white (designed by a leading clothing designer to be Pantone-compliant and with manufacturing spread across all 50 states), none of which would work as well as the USMC design, which would consist of old bedsheets cut and sewn in the right places to make snow ponchos, which would have been done at unit level 20 years prior.

For a green camo uniform they could just sew a bunch of $10,000 bills together and it would be cheaper and probably more effective.

[TaiidanTomcat]

Completely forgot about the M8. Seems like it woud have done the job nicely, if it hadden't been cancelled shortsightely by the Army.

Not sure if the 105mm gun would still be a tank killer these days, epecially against the latest Russian designs. The Israelis came out with an armored chassis that mounted a Spike anti-tank missile launcher, wonder if that might be the way of the future, vrs going with a cannon?

What a 105MM mounted on a light armored vehicle might look like.

The US Army is the only service that if they needed a snow camo uniform would have 10 years of studies done internally (based on extensive stakeholder input from everybody except the grunts), would come up with five or six types (Arctic white? Antarctic white? Desert white? Temperate white? Jungle white?), would test them for several years, and then not be able to decide what shade of white was best. The whole thing would then be put out to private industry to solve, with a multi-year contract period resulting in expensive, digital-lozenge shapes/shades of white (designed by a leading clothing designer to be Pantone-compliant and with manufacturing spread across all 50 states), none of which would work as well as the USMC design, which would consist of old bedsheets cut and sewn in the right places to make snow ponchos, which would have been done at unit level 20 years prior.

For a green camo uniform they could just sew a bunch of $10,000 bills together and it would be cheaper and probably more effective.

John Hairell

tpn18@yahoo.com

[Horrido]

Completely forgot about the M8. Seems like it woud have done the job nicely, if it hadden't been cancelled shortsightely by the Army.

Not sure if the 105mm gun would still be a tank killer these days, epecially against the latest Russian designs. The Israelis came out with an armored chassis that mounted a Spike anti-tank missile launcher, wonder if that might be the way of the future, vrs going with a cannon?

One of the statements I read was that the reasoning for cancelling the Buford was because the Pentagon wanted C-17s, which could lift and deliver (though not air-drop) the heavier armor. Another problem is that while the Buford looks like a tank, it really isn't (being an "armored gun system" rather than a heavily armored tank that can go toe-to-toe with other tanks), and people would have a tendency to get into trouble trying to use them as such against heavy armor.

I find the concern over barrel width interesting, as it's the velocity of the projectile that does the damage against other armor (other than the difference in volume for powder between a 105 and 120, and volume from shell size for high-explosives, shot/flachettes, or missiles/smart shells [MPAT/STAFF]). I also don't know the difference in size/volume comparing a 105 action/chamber with a 120, for the sake of commonality, and fitting either one within a given space. I've always wondered if you could get away with using a HUGE casing firing a rod through a 76mm barrel. On the other hand, once railguns are perfected, it'll become a moot point as you can choose your barrel size and launch anything you want that can fit through it, wrapped in a sabot.

[11bee]

I find the concern over barrel width interesting, as it's the velocity of the projectile that does the damage against other armor (other than the difference in volume for powder between a 105 and 120, and volume from shell size for high-explosives, shot/flachettes, or missiles/smart shells [MPAT/STAFF]).

Actually it's all about kinetic energy (unless you are shooting HEAT rounds) which is a function of velocity AND mass. The larger the barrel (say 120mm vrs 105mm) the larger (and by default, heavier) the sabot. A larger cannon will typically provide for an increase of both mass and V, thus yielding a better penetrator. That's a general rule, obviously lots of other factors play in.

TT - I thought of the Stryker assault gun but I don't think it can be air-dropped and I thought I read that the troops hated it and the Army was seriously considering phasing it out.

[toadwbg]

Uh...what was this thread about again?

[Horrido]

Chicks in form-fitting cammo. Stay on topic.

[11bee]

Chicks in form-fitting cammo. Stay on topic.

TT got us off on the air-dropable assault gun tangent, however he has continually redeemed himself with all the pics of hot girlies in cammo and/or armed with assault rifles.

Either way, it's all good!

[TaiidanTomcat]

Have a Great weekend everyone

[11bee]

Camo of a different type but still somewhat on topic. About time, those desert sand painted tanks and tracks motoring around the woods of western (and eastern these days) Europe looked just a bit out of place.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2015/09/05/going-green-new-paint-job-army-tanks-europe/71697352/

[TaiidanTomcat]

Camo of a different type but still somewhat on topic. About time, those desert sand painted tanks and tracks motoring around the woods of western (and eastern these days) Europe looked just a bit out of place.

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2015/09/05/going-green-new-paint-job-army-tanks-europe/71697352/

And this "green"; its found in nature, and we are painting our vehicles in it again?