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Boeing is having a great run at the Dubai airshow. Just landed a slew of orders for the new 777X (a re-engined, re-winged 777), along with some decent orders for the 787-10 and 737max.

Emirates alone just signed up for 150 777's. Can't believe the size of these orders (both Boeing & Airbus), it will be interesting to see if the market can keep this pace.

On a related note, is it me or does anyone else think that in another decade, if you fly long-haul, you will be flying on an Arab airline? These guys are expanding at a very impressive rate. Emirates just announced that they will begin service to my local airport (BOS), something I didn't think I would ever see.

Anyway, kudos to BA, hope their stock gets a nice bump from this!

Edited by 11bee
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That's a very large order. I think the largest order goes to American Airlines who announced a little while back an aircraft order of over 400. It includes both Boeing and Airbus.

Have you ever flown on one of the Middle Eastern airlines? They can sometimes be expensive, but their customer service is arguably the best in the world. It certainly puts to shame anything North American carriers have to offer. The likes of Delta, United, and American will never be on par with Emirates, Qatar, and Etihad, or even Singapore, QANTAS, British, Turkish, and other carriers from other parts of the world.

Aaron

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That's a very large order. I think the largest order goes to American Airlines who announced a little while back an aircraft order of over 400. It includes both Boeing and Airbus.

Have you ever flown on one of the Middle Eastern airlines? They can sometimes be expensive, but their customer service is arguably the best in the world. It certainly puts to shame anything North American carriers have to offer. The likes of Delta, United, and American will never be on par with Emirates, Qatar, and Etihad, or even Singapore, QANTAS, British, Turkish, and other carriers from other parts of the world.

Aaron

I'm not sure but I think the 777X order is the largest in history based on dollar value not number of airframes. The AA order was mostly for narrow body aircraft.

I've yet to fly any of the Middle Eastern carriers but have heard nothing but good things about them. Agree that nothing in the US is close but it sounds like AA and Delta are finally trying to improve their long-haul products. To be honest, I've flow British Air and QANTAS and wasn't very impressed with either. Same for Lufthansa. However, I typically fly in steerage. Maybe their premium products are a bit more impressive.

With regard to the Middle Eastern airlines, Some cynics have suggested that they have a very unfair advantage due to state subsidies and are systematically taking over the long-haul market by undercutting legacy airlines like those you listed above. I know that a few countries have been relectant to give them rights due to fear that they will run the native airlines out of business.

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I just have to wonder at these essentially brand new middle eastern carriers continuing to order new airplanes by the hundred. I just don't see their long term business prospects growing at that kind of rate. They'll never fly me from Roanoke to Tucson, Mr. Ying from Shanghai to Xianxi, or Mr. Varma from Mumbai to Delhi. Those markets are where the growth and the bulk of the airline traffic in the world is, not long haul to/from Dubai. Once their oil starts to dwindle, these airlines are going to dwindle with them.

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I just have to wonder at these essentially brand new middle eastern carriers continuing to order new airplanes by the hundred. I just don't see their long term business prospects growing at that kind of rate. They'll never fly me from Roanoke to Tucson, Mr. Ying from Shanghai to Xianxi, or Mr. Varma from Mumbai to Delhi. Those markets are where the growth and the bulk of the airline traffic in the world is, not long haul to/from Dubai. Once their oil starts to dwindle, these airlines are going to dwindle with them.

They have some pretty sophisticated networks, many times just using Dubai as a connector, not as an end-destination (although they are also working hard to make Dubai and the rest of the region into a tourist mecca). Sorry about the lame pun :)

Also, more and more of their flight segments are not even going near the mid-east. I think that is what is making other airlines nervous.

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The Gulf States are trying to position themselves as transportation hubs to create jobs in sectors other than minerals extraction. The idea being that you'd fly from North America or Europe to Asia or Australasia using Dubai, Doha, Abu Dhabi, or wherever as a stopover.

However Boeing (and Airbus, for that matter) should be careful what it wishes for with sales to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad.

As the article yesterday's Wall Street Journal pointed out, intercontinental air travel is not growing at the same pace at which Gulf carriers are expanding. In other words, the planes are also being bought for the purpose of stealing market share off other carriers. This means more aircraft sales to these carriers will be offset by fewer sales to major North American and European airlines. Furthermore, all the 'moneybags' Gulf carriers are state-owned entities using cheap US Government export-credit support to buy the 777X. As Delta (and Lufthansa in the case of Airbus) have already pointed out, this means that US taxpayers are funding Boeing's sales to state-owned Gulf carriers, all the while putting US private enterprise at a long-term competitive disadvantage on these intercontinental routes.

It makes about as much sense as a Gulf State hosting the World Cup. Oh…

Edited to improve clarity, especially in first sentence.

Edited by Linden Hill
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The Gulf States are trying to position themselves as transportation hubs to create jobs in sectors other than raw materials extraction. The idea being that you'd fly from North America or Europe to Asia or Australasia using Dubai, Doha, Abu Dhabi, or wherever as a stopover.

However Boeing (and Airbus, for that matter) should be careful what it wishes for with sales to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad.

As the article yesterday's Wall Street Journal pointed out, intercontinental air travel is not growing at the same pace at which Gulf carriers are expanding. This means more aircraft sales to these carriers will be offset by fewer sales to major North American and European legacy carriers. Furthermore, all the 'moneybags' Gulf carriers are state-owned entities using cheap US Government export-credit support to buy the 777X. As Delta (and Lufthansa in the case of Airbus) have already pointed out, this means that US taxpayers are funding Boeing's sales to state-owned Gulf carriers, all the while putting US private enterprise at a long-term competitive disadvantage on these intercontinental route

It makes about as much sense as a Gulf State hosting the World Cup. Oh…

I believe there is some heartache here in the US because the Feds are planning to approve Dubai airport as a US Customs pre-screened facility (or something to that effect). Which gives US-bound flights originating out of Dubai an advantage. The funny thing is that the Feds are doing this despite not a single US airline flying out of Dubai. The only ones who will benefit will be the Middle Eastern airlines. Strange....

Edit - came across this article: http://news.yahoo.com/watch-u-airlines-arabs-coming-093058906.html

Edited by 11bee
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The funny thing is that the Feds are doing this despite not a single US airline flying out of Dubai.

I think you mean Abu Dhabi, not Dubai. I've transited through and/or lived next to both airports over the last 5 years. I've flown direct from Dubai to both Dulles on United and to Atlanta on Delta.

Abu Dhabi has no US based carriers flying out of its airport.

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I think you mean Abu Dhabi, not Dubai. I've transited through and/or lived next to both airports over the last 5 years. I've flown direct from Dubai to both Dulles on United and to Atlanta on Delta.

Abu Dhabi has no US based carriers flying out of its airport.

My bad.. You are absolutely correct.

With regard to where the 777X will be built, that is turning into a major issue. BA requested that the machinist union out in Seattle make major concessions on their benefits / retirement plans in order to keep the wing fabrication local. The state is bending over backwards with incentives to keep the work in WA but so far it looks like the union is not going to accept BA's offer.

All the while, BA is purchasing more land at their brand new assembly facility in SC (a right to work state with no strong unions) and seems to be of the mindset that if they don't get what they want, they will simply move the production of the wings down south. I don't think BA has a great deal of love for the unions (given past strikes that have hurt the company quite a bit) and may be looking for any reason to justify sending this work (and much future work) down to Charleston.

It will also be interesting to see how much of the work goes to Japan. Given that JAL just awarded Airbus a huge contract for widebodies, many have suggested that BA will end up pulling a lot of the current work they subcontract in Japan and bringing it back to the US. They also learned the hard way with the 787 about the pitfalls of excessive subcontracting in general and will probably bring a lot more of the work back in house.

Should be pretty interesting. Hopefully they don't squander a strong start like they did with the 787.

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I believe there is some heartache here in the US because the Feds are planning to approve Dubai airport as a US Customs pre-screened facility (or something to that effect). Which gives US-bound flights originating out of Dubai an advantage. The funny thing is that the Feds are doing this despite not a single US airline flying out of Dubai. The only ones who will benefit will be the Middle Eastern airlines. Strange....

Edit - came across this article: http://news.yahoo.com/watch-u-airlines-arabs-coming-093058906.html

So you can get on a middle east airliner and fly to the US with less scrutiny than American Disabled Veteran Taiidan Tomcat who is being patted down with his shoes on an X-ray and is flying from the US to Canada? It just makes sense.

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So you can get on a middle east airliner and fly to the US with less scrutiny than American Disabled Veteran Taiidan Tomcat who is being patted down with his shoes on an X-ray and is flying from the US to Canada? It just makes sense.

Given that you probably reside on multiple "watch lists", I for one sleep better at night knowing the feds have their eye on you.

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Hopefully they don't squander a strong start like they did with the 787.

It's not as if the 777X is exactly ground breaking technology. The basic airplane is 20 years old. Boeing knows how to build them. The 777X is an evolutionary, not a revolutionary change. I'm sure Boeing has learned a lot of lessons with the 787 program (or rather, re-learned them). No reason to think the 777X won't go a lot more smoothly.

Edited by Jennings
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It's not as if the 777X is exactly ground breaking technology. The basic airplane is 20 years old. Boeing knows how to build them. The 777X is an evolutionary, not a revolutionary change. I'm sure Boeing has learned a lot of lessons with the 787 program (or rather, re-learned them). No reason to think the 777X won't go a lot more smoothly.

One would think so, however the 747-8 was a much less ambitious upgrade of the base 747 and they still managed to screw that program up as well. I wish them the best, 777 is my favorite airliner but BA's track record has been pretty poor over the last decade or so.

Also, keep in mind that they are going to have a good portion of their engineering assets working on the 737max at the same time.

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The Gulf States are trying to position themselves as transportation hubs to create jobs in sectors other than minerals extraction. The idea being that you'd fly from North America or Europe to Asia or Australasia using Dubai, Doha, Abu Dhabi, or wherever as a stopover.

However Boeing (and Airbus, for that matter) should be careful what it wishes for with sales to Emirates, Qatar and Etihad.

As the article yesterday's Wall Street Journal pointed out, intercontinental air travel is not growing at the same pace at which Gulf carriers are expanding. In other words, the planes are also being bought for the purpose of stealing market share off other carriers. This means more aircraft sales to these carriers will be offset by fewer sales to major North American and European airlines. Furthermore, all the 'moneybags' Gulf carriers are state-owned entities using cheap US Government export-credit support to buy the 777X. As Delta (and Lufthansa in the case of Airbus) have already pointed out, this means that US taxpayers are funding Boeing's sales to state-owned Gulf carriers, all the while putting US private enterprise at a long-term competitive disadvantage on these intercontinental routes.

It makes about as much sense as a Gulf State hosting the World Cup. Oh…

Edited to improve clarity, especially in first sentence.

Correct, with one addition. They also do not pay business taxes at home so they can offer a much higher level of service overall and still remain profitable. Their economy class is the equivalent of biz class for most NA carrier's. Having flow most of them regularly since the mid 90's (Emirates, Qatar and Etihad), it is sad to say there is no comparison in service to NA airlines.

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Now if they can only figure out where they will actually build the damn thing...

Aaron

Interesting blog on this issue. It sounds like there is a going to be a pretty ugly battle between Boeing and it's Seattle-based machinists unions.

Given how toxic the current relationship is (and Boeing's memory of the last strike that cost it billions), I wonder if this really is the beginning of the end for Boeing's WA manufacturing operation? Has to be plenty of people down south hoping this is the case.

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/flight-international-editors-blog/2013/11/bluffers-beware/

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  • 3 weeks later...

Semi-related news, Boeing just scored a huge win over Airbus. Air Canada (previously operating an A319/320/321 fleet) has just announced it will purchase up to 109 of the new 737Max jets to replace it's single-aisle Airbuses. Boeing needed this one, it's the first time that an airline operating a total Airbus fleet has selected Boeing's new jet.

It's been a good year for BA, hopefully they won't screw things up in 2014.

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Have you ever flown on one of the Middle Eastern airlines? They can sometimes be expensive, but their customer service is arguably the best in the world. It certainly puts to shame anything North American carriers have to offer. The likes of Delta, United, and American will never be on par with Emirates, Qatar, and Etihad, or even Singapore, QANTAS, British, Turkish, and other carriers from other parts of the world.

Aaron

I've flown Emirates once and am EXTREMELY IMPRESSED by their customer service etc. Even the food was darned good for airplane food. And I was flying "cattle class"! I've also flown AA and Delta once or twice when travelling to US, and I must say... They suck! Qantas... borderline between "OK" and "suck", at least their A380 is very nice, even for cattle class (flew on it from Melbourne to LA). Singapore Airlines is very good, about the same as Emirates. Air New Zealand is good, but not quite Emirates/SQ standard yet. Virgin Australia is pretty good too (code share with Delta for Aust/US leg). Garuda Indonesia's flight attendants are usually quite friendly and helpful, and I heard their planes are really nice these days (last time I flew long haul with them was probably 20 years ago). I'll be flying Garuda next week for holiday, so I'll know first hand soon enough. :woot.gif:/>

With regard to the Middle Eastern airlines, Some cynics have suggested that they have a very unfair advantage due to state subsidies and are systematically taking over the long-haul market by undercutting legacy airlines like those you listed above. I know that a few countries have been relectant to give them rights due to fear that they will run the native airlines out of business.

Not just Middle Eastern airlines. I believe Singapore Airlines also receive quite a substantial subsidy from the government. Heck, they may even be part owned by the gov't (some of our Singaporean members might be able to chip in here...). In fact, I'm sure most major Asian airlines receive some sort of subsidy from their respective governments.

Edited by Mike C
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Air Canada (previously operating an A319/320/321 fleet) has just announced it will purchase up to 109 of the new 737Max jets to replace it's single-aisle Airbuses. Boeing needed this one, it's the first time that an airline operating a total Airbus fleet has selected Boeing's new jet.

Are you just referring to Air Canada's single aisle fleet, or entire fleet being all Airbus?

d2yw.jpg

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Also, keep in mind that they are going to have a good portion of their engineering assets working on the 737max at the same time.

Where to begin here? I'm sure Boeing employs enough engineers to support both programs at once.

Semi-related news, Boeing just scored a huge win over Airbus. Air Canada (previously operating an A319/320/321 fleet) has just announced it will purchase up to 109 of the new 737Max jets to replace it's single-aisle Airbuses. Boeing needed this one, it's the first time that an airline operating a total Airbus fleet has selected Boeing's new jet.

It's been a good year for BA, hopefully they won't screw things up in 2014.

Air Canada does not operate a total airbus fleet. They have 767s, 777s, and Embraer 190s in addition to their Airbuses.

Aaron

Edited by jester292
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Where to begin here? I'm sure Boeing employs enough engineers to support both programs at once.

Air Canada does not operate a total airbus fleet. They have 767s, 777s, and Embraer 190s in addition to their Airbuses.

Aaron

1) In the past, Boeing has demonstrated that it does NOT have the engineering resources to support multiple programs simultaneously, just need to look at the issues that occurred with the 747-8. One reason put out there for all the delays was that they didn't have enough talent to support the 747-8 program because most of their engineers were tied up on the Dreamliner. This time around, BA will have the 787-10, 777X and 737MAX programs all competing for the same pool of engineers. We'll see how well BA executes....

2) My bad, I meant single-aisle. I was aware that they currently fly Boeing wide-bodies and I don't consider the E-190 in the same class as the A320 or 737 family. Although the lines are definitely being blurred, I still consider that aircraft more of a "regional jet".

Edited by 11bee
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1) In the past, Boeing has demonstrated that it does NOT have the engineering resources to support multiple programs simultaneously, just need to look at the issues that occurred with the 747-8. One reason put out there for all the delays was that they didn't have enough talent to support the 747-8 program because most of their engineers were tied up on the Dreamliner. This time around, BA will have the 787-10, 777X and 737MAX programs all competing for the same pool of engineers. We'll see how well BA executes....

2) My bad, I meant single-aisle. I was aware that they currently fly Boeing wide-bodies and I don't consider the EMB-190 in the same class as the A320 or 737 family. Although the lines are definitely being blurred, I still consider that aircraft more of a "regional jet".

Well there was a time when we did have more Airbus wide body aircraft but the A340 fleet has been retired for a while now. The A330 was slated to go but it is a work horse for the routes it does fly and will probably stay for a bit longer.

AC loved the 767 Fleet both -200 and -300 which is probably why the Dreamliner will fit like a glove at mainline and the 767-300 will continue at Rouge. The larger narrow bodies A321/A320/A319 fleet all have good points and in their day sure did help the airline... these aircraft have become maintenance hogs (We've had the A320 for close to 25 years). The only difference between the current A321/A320 fleet and the B737 would be turn times. Because the A320/A321 aircraft are containerized we can turn one in 30 minutes fully loaded with 3 guys. Our only limitation is the customer getting on (sometimes you just can't make them go faster).

The A319 is a separate love affair as it is also a work horse which is why it will continue in the fleet but in the Discount Airline Rouge.

The 777-200LR and 777-300ER have proven very effective machines which is why they replaced our A340-300/500 and 747-400 fleets. Distance/Fuel costs/and Capacity have made this an Airliner which I believe will serve for many years.

The E-190 and E-175 have fallen out of favour because of Cost.... They are limited in cargo capacity and have been Maintenance hogs since day one..... our nick name for the Embraer fleet is the E-180 because after dispatch the usually come back with issues. The hope for replacement of these larger Regional jets I suspect will be the Bombarier C series. AC actually has a good Regional fleet with the majority being built by Bombardier in the Dash 8/ Q400 and the CRJ-200/705. It is that 76 to 120ish seat capacity where they have not found the right airplane yet.

The 737MAX will be a good fit for some of the E-190 routes but there is still a segment that needs covering.

I think the 737MAX will be a good fit overall in cost and capacity which it has proven with so many other airlines, Airbus has had to fight with this contender.

The 747 has always been my first love....dependable aircraft and it just keeps on ticking, but there are not many routes this aircraft is economical in the AC Network which we can't utilize using the 777 so I do not foresee any planned purchase of the 4 engine aircraft.

Here is a site with our current fleet and historical fleets. AC fleets

:cheers:

Emil

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