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Early A4 inVietnam detail question


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Close to finishing up the 1/48 Hasagawa A4C and have a few questions for the experts out there.

The load out will be 6 snakeyes on the center line and fuel tanks hanging under the wings. Plan is to show it chained down to the deck awaiting the next strike.

Question 1:

Do I need to add the arming wires to the mk82s or would they wait until it was closer to launch to add them? And if I do need to add the wires, I attach to the nose and then back to...? Pylon? Reference pic?

Question 2:

What chain to use?

Since there are no hobby shops within an hours drive of me anymore. What size chain would work for 1/48. I'll need to order online.

Does anybody sell a tie-down set with chain, photoetch bits to make this?

Could also use some advice on the proper way they secured the a/c to the deck.

Question 3:

Plan to include a deck tractor and figures as well.

I have the verlinden crew and also a tractor from Skunk Models. Would these be period correct for 'nam?

If not, what would I need to do in order to make them work?

I appreciate the help!!

Steve

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Thanks spejic.

I actually found that pic early on but not at that resolution!

Looks like the bombs aren't 'wired' and it seems odd that the nose strut alone is secured to the deck.

Appreciate the help.

Anybody else care to chime in re: the other questions?

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Lots of pics here:

http://www.usscoralsea.net/pages/flightdeck1960s.php

http://www.usscoralsea.net/pages/flightdeck1960s2.php

As for arming wires, there would be 2, one for the fuze and one for the tail since you are going with Snakeyes. I don't know how they did it with the A-4 but with the CF-104 and CF-18 the nose fuze arming wire was hooked up to the Snakeye tail so when the bomb dropped, a swivel (which the wire looped thru) was hooked up to an nose arming solenoid on the bomb rack which held the swivel and thus pulled the wire out letting the fins pop open which in turn pulled out the noze arming wire. The other wire was for the band holding the Snakeye fins closed, the other end of the wire was looped around the nose of the bomb and the swivel for this wire was hooked up to the tail arming solenoid. When Nose/Tail arming was selected the solenoids would hold the swivels letting the pilot drop the bombs armed, or safe if nose/tail arming was not selected and either high drag or low drag, with proper arming selection. Of course it may have been different on the A-4 but the principles are about the same.

Jari

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Its hard to find, but White Ensign Models used to sell 1/48th scale tie down chains.

As to securing it all depends on the time with regards towards movement of the aircraft. There is an immediate tie down where only a few chains are used, this is done after a recovery but before the aircraft is moved to its permanent parking spot and the rule of thumb is 6-9 chains where the plane moves is expected in under 4 hours, there is permanent tie down which 10-12 chains used when an aircraft is not going to move at anytime from 5 to 24 hours from being put in its parking location. Finally there is heavy weather tie down where the chains are 20-24 and used to secure the aircraft to the deck during heavy weather (like a typhoon or storms).

With respect towards tractors on carriers it all depends on the carrier.

For example here is a picture of the Big E circa 1966 with the tractors that are standard MD-3 tractors which were in service from the 60's on to early 90's

http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/pages/common/imagedisplay.php

You can find the best example of this in either a Verlinden kit or in the Fujimi kits

If you are on an older 27C carrier (like the Oriskany or Shang-ri La) then you are looking at the MD-1 tractor.

Phantom Model works makes one, but it is in 1/72 scale. http://www.phantommodels.com/index.php?productID=667

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While not an Ordnanceman, I think that the arming wires should be in place while the weapon is still in the pylon. Once the weapon falls away, the wires are supposed to stay attached to the pylon. No wires means the weapon didn't arm. So, theoretically if you're modeling a post-mission aircraft, you'd have either one or two 3-4 foot wires hanging from the pylon(s).

Edited by DonSS3
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Lots of pics here:http://www.usscoralsea.net/pages/flightdeck1960s.phphttp://www.usscoralsea.net/pages/flightdeck1960s2.phpAs for arming wires, there would be 2, one for the fuze and one for the tail since you are going with Snakeyes. I don't know how they did it with the A-4 but with the CF-104 and CF-18 the nose fuze arming wire was hooked up to the Snakeye tail so when the bomb dropped, a swivel (which the wire looped thru) was hooked up to an nose arming solenoid on the bomb rack which held the swivel and thus pulled the wire out letting the fins pop open which in turn pulled out the noze arming wire. The other wire was for the band holding the Snakeye fins closed, the other end of the wire was looped around the nose of the bomb and the swivel for this wire was hooked up to the tail arming solenoid. When Nose/Tail arming was selected the solenoids would hold the swivels letting the pilot drop the bombs armed, or safe if nose/tail arming was not selected and either high drag or low drag, with proper arming selection. Of course it may have been different on the A-4 but the principles are about the same.Jari

Great info!

When would they add these wires? As soon as they were hung? Would they ever be sitting without the wires such as the pic that spejic provided in the link above. (at least it appears there are no wires)

Its hard to find, but White Ensign Models used to sell 1/48th scale tie down chains. As to securing it all depends on the time with regards towards movement of the aircraft. There is an immediate tie down where only a few chains are used, this is done after a recovery but before the aircraft is moved to its permanent parking spot and the rule of thumb is 6-9 chains where the plane moves is expected in under 4 hours, there is permanent tie down which 10-12 chains used when an aircraft is not going to move at anytime from 5 to 24 hours from being put in its parking location. Finally there is heavy weather tie down where the chains are 20-24 and used to secure the aircraft to the deck during heavy weather (like a typhoon or storms). With respect towards tractors on carriers it all depends on the carrier.For example here is a picture of the Big E circa 1966 with the tractors that are standard MD-3 tractors which were in service from the 60's on to early 90'shttp://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/pages/common/imagedisplay.phpYou can find the best example of this in either a Verlinden kit or in the Fujimi kitsIf you are on an older 27C carrier (like the Oriskany or Shang-ri La) then you are looking at the MD-1 tractor.Phantom Model works makes one, but it is in 1/72 scale. http://www.phantommodels.com/index.php?productID=667

This is VERY helpful. Thanks!

I found the White Ensign tie-down set but it is outside my price range at the moment. (I'll just have to cobble something together)

Also, this link won't load for some reason. (http://collections.naval.aviation.museum/emuwebdoncoms/pages/common/imagedisplay.php)

Do you happen to have another that you can share?

Further seaching it looks like this is how the US Navy did it:http://www.tpub.com/aviord321/14.htmJari

Perfect!! This helps tremendously!

Some really great info offered here!!

Thank you guys!

Since I'm going to have to order some chain online. Any idea what "size" should I use in order to keep to scale?

(Normally, I would just visit a hobby shop to "eyeball" it but as I mentioned in the opening thread, there aren't any around here anymore.) :angry:/>/>

Thanks again everybody! :thumbsup:/>

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While not an Ordnaceman, I think that the arming wires should be in place while the weapon is still in the pylon. Once the weapon falls away, the wires are supposed to stay attached to the pylon. No wires means the weapon didn't arm. So, theoretically if you're modeling a post-mission aircraft, you'd have either one or two 3-4 foot wires hanging from the pylon(s).

Thanks for joining in DonSS3!

The configuration will be similar to this:

A-4C_VA-172_on_USS_FDR_off_Vietnam_1966.jpg

With the exception of using drop tanks on the outboard stations.

Makes sense about the wires.

'preciate it!

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Actually the arming wires rarely ever came back with the a/c, once the bombs dropped and the arming solenoids were de-activated and the swivels, with arming wires, normally fell away. Besides having a few feet of wire, times the number of wires per bomb on a MER, flapping in the airstream tended cause some damage.

edit: here is a video of an A-4 being loaded:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa7_1331763904

at the 2:00 mark, the fuze and arming wire are added. The wire for opening the Snakeye fins would be hooked up also to the individual rack of the MER/TER.

Jari

Edited by Finn
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Steve, et al.

Couple points. As the video that Finn posted shows, the arming wires are added at loading. Note the bombs are loaded without fuses, which are added afterwards along with the arming wires. I wouldn't worry about arming the fins if you are doing a Vietnam era strike aircraft. Snakes were only dropped in the retarded mode from low altitude, the idea being to provide separation of the aircraft from the bomb prior to detonation, and in Vietnam low altitude would get you killed. The rule was never go below 3,000 ft AGL and the release would be much higher than that, too high for retarded Snakes. (I should point out in all honesty that I never dropped a retarded Snakeye, this is just what I remember being told about them.)

As to tie downs, the standard on my cruises was 9 point on a parked aircraft, 3 or 6 on one getting ready to move. From the position of that 172 Charlie in the photo, just forward of the island, I would say that a respot for launch is in process and it was shortly to be moved aft for the launch. The Midway class was larger than the 27Cs, but not by that much and had only the two bow cats, so aircraft were parked on the bow during the recovery and moved aft onto the angle deck for the succeeding launch cycle. It is rather strange that only the nosesgear appears to have tiedowns and the mains just chocked , but that is further evidence for an imminent respot, though I would expect to see the plane captain sitting in the cockpit to man the brakes.

For the chains, look for some cheap neck chain at WalMart or some such, the finest you can get (or raid your wife's jewelry box if you think you can get away with it! :-) ) The toughest part about tiedowns is the hardware on the chains, but it adds a lot of authenticity to add them - nothing looks dumber to me than aircraft models parked on a flight deck with no tiedowns and nobody in them.

As to tractors, I think the Skunk one will do fine. It is pretty much like what we had on Tico and Shang, but without some of the bells and whistles. We had some with starters on the back, but most were just tractors, like the one in the video. I never saw one of those MD-1s that A6BSTARM refers to that I recall. There was another type used a lot ashore, but not on the boat.

HTH,

Tom

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the tie down chain pattern is in the Ginter A-4B book, on page 31 (it is also filth covered in an old book I have, lol)

the pattern for a Skyhawk is the nose gets one chain to the right and one to the left, each to a forward tie down point (it would look like the 45 degree drafting square laying on the ground),,,,,,then one fore and aft on each side outside of each wing pylon, then a triangle shape with two chains forward, one from inside of each main, and the same shape of triangle to the rear, one from inside of each main

Ten chains in total (Skyhawks didn't need as many chains as an F-8 or F-4)

1/48 scale tie down chains are available 1/3 of the way down this page

http://www.djparkins.com/acatalog/1_48th_Post_War_USAF_NATO_Russian.html

sway braces, fuzes, and other ordnance details are two or three items farther down the page

hope this helps

Rex

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...nothing looks dumber to me than aircraft models parked on a flight deck with no tiedowns and nobody in them.

As to tractors, I think the Skunk one will do fine. It is pretty much like what we had on Tico and Shang, but without some of the bells and whistles.

HTH,

Tom

Agreed about the chain details. I'd rather not show the chains if I can't get them to look right.

the tie down chain pattern is in the Ginter A-4B book, on page 31 (it is also filth covered in an old book I have, lol)

Never seen that book.

Any chance you could email a scan? (preferredline@yahoo.com) Or, since you are somewhat local to me, would you want to meet up over a cup of coffee?

the pattern for a Skyhawk is the nose gets one chain to the right and one to the left, each to a forward tie down point (it would look like the 45 degree drafting square laying on the ground),,,,,,then one fore and aft on each side outside of each wing pylon, then a triangle shape with two chains forward, one from inside of each main, and the same shape of triangle to the rear, one from inside of each main

Ten chains in total (Skyhawks didn't need as many chains as an F-8 or F-4)

1/48 scale tie down chains are available 1/3 of the way down this page

http://www.djparkins.com/acatalog/1_48th_Post_War_USAF_NATO_Russian.html

sway braces, fuzes, and other ordnance details are two or three items farther down the page

hope this helps

Rex

Great info! Thanks for sharing. It's a huge help!

I'm humbled and amazed by the amount of info being shared on this site.

Makes this hobby SO much more enjoyable for me! :thumbsup:/>/>

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Here's how she's looking on the bench as of right now.

5897B4CB-B8AD-4E12-810D-D3B90934EB52.jpg

BD1DEDB1-8BCD-4BC1-B753-22AEC5AF280E_1.jpg

1705F2A2-77AA-4C7B-AC50-6624DE45FD6A.jpg

2991ACEE-87FB-4C33-ADA4-707615BF73FF.jpg

F0F50F93-AF7B-4D2A-9E11-447E95BF76A5.jpg

It's my first attempt at the "salt" weathering. Got a little heavy in a few spots but after toning those areas down a bit and a lil more practice I'm liking the look of it.

I still have a few areas left to weather with oils and then an overall dull coat once all the fiddly-bits are glued on.

Again thanks for all the help!!

Edited by SteveL
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As to tractors, I think the Skunk one will do fine. It is pretty much like what we had on Tico and Shang, but without some of the bells and whistles. We had some with starters on the back, but most were just tractors, like the one in the video. I never saw one of those MD-1s that A6BSTARM refers to that I recall. There was another type used a lot ashore, but not on the boat.

HTH,

Tom

Tom,

The only reason I referred to those tractors because my uncle was on the Shangri-La in the 50's and looking at his cruise books when they were first using A-4's they had the older style MD-1 tractors to help move aircraft around.

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just an FYI, the tractor on our left in the photo is an actual Tractor,,,,,,the one on our right (in front of the "Big Bullpup") is actually and EPU, those jeep looking things were Electrical Power Units, not tow tractors (earlier in history, the Jeep was used as a tractor, but, those still had all four wheels)

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Checking the video mentioned above:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aa7_1331763904

note that they have Mk-81 and Mk-82 Snakeyes loaded on the same TER. The Mk-81 Snakeye is loaded on the inboard station of the TER, you can see the size difference at the 1:00 min mark and at 1:40 min you can clearly see the notch in the tail of the Mk-82s while the Mk-81 tail does not have that notch.

Jari

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