phantomdriver Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hello together! Well, I am new to this forum and today, I like to add my personal view to the Wingman topic. MoFo seems to be the insider here, but to be honest, I cannot follow and support all what he wrote. I have built the Wingman C10, which I bought when it was released and really liked what Wingman is providing and how the kit went together. Also their C2/C7 kit, as well as the Alpha Jet, look fine to me. Hey, of course there are problematic areas but it was their first kits and the next ones will be better. But let me go step by step: What I really appreciate is, what you get for the price. A plastic kit that on its own costs between 35 and 40 Euros, plus great decals with lots of variants, masking (not necessary but a nice touch), metal Pitot-tubes, resin parts and good photo-etch. Buying everything separately would be way more expensive than this all-in-one offer. The fact that they used original CAD drawings is an absolute plus as the parts went together like a hand in a glove (sorry for the direct translation of the Germany saying). To my opinion, the fit is simply superb. You quote Eduard and Aires – for example I have the Aires cockpit for the F-4E/F. The detail is great – better than that of Wingman – but the shrinkage is a pure horror (as with many Aires parts). So, what is better: fighting a fit issue with parts being 3 mm too short or parts that fit perfectly but have some problems with the details? You to choose… http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild1_zps5f667dad.jpg MoFo is right with the cockpit detail, it can be more accentuated and yes I love undercuts, but with a little painting and wash it really looks nice. I did not see the problems that he described as my parts were ok, well, not the best ever resin but OK, and I still have my sanding sticks and steel wool – too many visible lines and off they are ... On the other hand MoFo’s photos of the part are 25 cm wide, while the original part is mere 5 cm long, so scale 5 to 1 – using a magnifying glass to find a problem – hmmm?! After painting and weathering and with the seat installed the resin cockpit still looks better then the Kinetic parts on their own and the original Kfir/Mirage cockpit didn’t have much detail anyway. The landing gear bay could have been more detailed, but I bought the kit not because of that but because of the C10 parts and in the end I am a modeler – if I want to improve it even more, I surely can do it myself. The instrument panels are better then the Kinetic parts – not hugely better but still better than the original, especially in shape. The wheels, however, are a 100% – no a 200% improvement to the kit parts. I tried glueing the four parts together without ending up ruining the little detail that is available and making sure the hub is in the center, what a pain in the bum – so here the single piece tires are a welcome rescue. Also the circumferential tread is a plus over the plane surface of the kit parts. Again, I did not recognize any stripes or CAD issues (did not put them under a microscope though … ;-) – possibly they have, but you won’t see them anyway after they are painted and weathered. The C10 nose has the same recessed lines as the Kinetic kit. There weren’t any fit issues and even the static vanes on the sides were crisply cast. See the images below how nice the finished nose section looks like. http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild33_zpsbed0088e.jpg Apart from the “super kit” I bought the centerline supersonic tank. It comes in three parts plus fins and chaff/flare dispensers and decals. On the finished aircraft it looks simply stunning and the fit plus detail is perfect! Also the additional antennas and the refueling boom had no flaws – everything was crisp and clean and fitted really well on the Kinetic model. Now, to the windshield – everyone here is talking about it and how Wingman screwed us modelers. I don’t know why they decided not to have it in the kit in the first place but I really do like the sanding and buffing option. I never was a friend of vacu-formed canopies with modern jets, as it is way too much hassle to make them fit. The removal of the frames was really easy. I sanded and buffed the windshield (not a big deal but I took care that it wasn’t braking), dipped the whole thing into Johnson Clear/Future and the outcome looks great. A friend of mine told me at a club meeting that Wingman is now offering a set of TWO windshields for a small shipping fee for those who have bought the early version of the kit and that these parts are now included in their “super kit” as well, so I will contact them and see if this is true. Think, this is a nice service – at least they listen to us modelers (or better our complaints…;-). http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild29_zps27da1a75.jpg http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild31_zps1c1fd2d8.jpg My chaff/flare dispenser unit was cast absolutely OK and could be installed without problems or fit issues (although I would have preferred that the chaff/ flare units would have been flat). With a little wash and the decals that Wingman provides for the dispensers the rear end looks fine to me. http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild25_zpscb8672de.jpg The J79 exhaust on the finished model only sticks out about 4-5 millimeters, every thing else of the nozzle inside the rear of the aircraft cannot be seen, so why wasting resources and money for detailing something that is absolutely not necessary. The little improved inside-details look great after dry-brushing. http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild32_zps974fc51a.jpg My conclusion: Summing up the above my conclusion is that I had more problems with the Kinetic kit then the Wingman accessories. The panel lines are not as sharp as those from Hasegawa or Tamiya but this is a Kinetic problem. My plastic had a rough surface (orange-skin type) which needed buffing, it’s advisable to use a gloss coat when you paint the model. Some sanding and filling is required between wing joints and fuselage. I put some extra weight into the nose – most probably not needed with the C10 but definitely with the C2/C7. Wingman resin is not the best, but it is fine with me and I have seen worse. The fit is great and the model can be built into a really nice replica. I heard Wingman will give the Kinetic Fouga Magister a similar treatment – PLEASE GUYS DO ADD MORE DETAILS or at least accentuate what is inside! The Wingman instructions are a bit problematic too. On the one hand these feature nice images to show how the original looks, on the other hand there is no color information – simple FS numbers would have been great. Also for the installation of the C10 instrument panel it would have been a big help, if Wingman had shown where and how to cut the Kinetic parts. The decals are of best quality. The white is very opaque on the dark surface and you can build a plethora of different variants – brilliant are the “black wolf” markings and I am looking forward to build this one as well. The brass parts I don’t need to mention – the Pitot tubes are simply gorgeous and give the aircraft a very nice touch. So, was it a “nice try – no banana”? No, not at all! In my opinion Wingman has had a great idea in pimping new or existing kits at a decent price. Mistakes can be done but they should learn their lesson soon. What I do not like is the “badmouthing” going on in the forums – talk or write to them directly and tell them your opinion or ask for a replacement. I am thankful that new companies like Wingman invest money, step into the market and attempt to improve our hobby. The modeling branch is already diminishing not to say dying and the big players such as Hasegawa, Revell and Tamiya, anyway release what they think is good for them and not for us. There are rumors that Wingman is currently investing into a Kfir two-seat version (WILL HAVE ONE!!) and the RC2 reconnaissance KFIR as well. So don’t give these newcomers the extra kick in the stomach and thus, pushing them out of business, this is not helping at all – in some years we might beg exactly for these small companies to return … Cheers JoWe http://i989.photobucket.com/albums/af14/JoeNuremberg/Bild23_zpsaf7ccf50.jpg All very well to say that but.. Mr Weiss was at Telford in November, one of my friends , bought an Alpha Jet and Kfir . He opened the box when we went back to our club table, and immediately took it back, asked for an exchange, pointing out a bad flaw in two of the castings.. Mr Weiss insisted that there was nothing wrong, then when pointed out ,further said that every casting run "gets a bad one now and again..." If he's that bothered about his product, why not just offer apologies and a replacement? My friend gave him the Alpha Jet also, and got a full refund..... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted January 13, 2014 Author Share Posted January 13, 2014 Hey, of course there are problematic areas but it was their first kits and the next ones will be better. Except, it's not. AirDoc has been doing resin for a decade. They should know better. That being said, the resin *casting* is nice, and their experience here shows. But the parts are unacceptable. And a well known cottage industry manufacturer who has been around for a decade should know they are unacceptable, and they are particularly unacceptable when that company is trying to market itself as a (new) major player providing superdetailed, nothing-else-needed kits. What I really appreciate is, what you get for the price. A plastic kit that on its own costs between 35 and 40 Euros, plus great decals with lots of variants, masking (not necessary but a nice touch), metal Pitot-tubes, resin parts and good photo-etch. Buying everything separately would be way more expensive than this all-in-one offer. I agree with the apparent value. That's why I bought the Wingman release. But with most of the resin being unacceptable quality, that value plummets. Think of it this way, if they stripped out all of the resin except for the C10 nose, instrument panel and tank insert, do you think people would still be happy to pay $70 for the kit? The fact that they used original CAD drawings is an absolute plus as the parts went together like a hand in a glove This is true. No complaints at all about the fit. And my gripe with the CAD isn't that they used the same files, it's how little they improved them. No undercuts on the (supposedly) cylindrical wheel well details? No extra buttons or knobs or crispness on the ejection seat. It's that the parts are virtually identical... only you have the option of gluing them with Tenax or CA. So, what is better: fighting a fit issue with parts being 3 mm too short or parts that fit perfectly but have some problems with the details? You to choose… Neither is acceptable - especially when the masters are based on CAD-derived parts; you enlarge the dimensions to account for resin shrinkage. That being said, I'd take the highly detailed resin that needs sanding or filling any day of the week. I'm not interested in adding resin detail. The whole point, to my mind, is to add resin detail. MoFo is right with the cockpit detail, it can be more accentuated and yes I love undercuts, but with a little painting and wash it really looks nice. It's not that the cockpit detail could be more accentuated; the entire port side console is just one indistinct blob of goop. There are some raised portions that I can paint to look like buttons or switches, but it's still going to look terrible when it's done. (I'm reminded here of a phrase figure modellers use: you can be the best painter in the world, but if you use terrible looking figures, you'll just end up with a beautifully painted, terrible looking figure) On the other hand MoFo’s photos of the part are 25 cm wide, while the original part is mere 5 cm long, so scale 5 to 1 – using a magnifying glass to find a problem – hmmm?! I don't really get this. So you want worse photos to highlight my complaints? That being said, I didn't decide to post my comments *after* I shot the pictures. All the problems I noted in my initial post were things I saw when I examined the parts with my own eyes, with zero magnification. A casual examination of the resin showed a number of faults. A closer examination showed them all. in the end I am a modeler – if I want to improve it even more, I surely can do it myself. This just makes me kind of sad. I mean, how messed up is it that we're discussing a resin detail set and casually brushing off its faults with a "we are modellers, we should fix it ourselves." A friend of mine told me at a club meeting that Wingman is now offering a set of TWO windshields for a small shipping fee for those who have bought the early version of the kit and that these parts are now included in their “super kit” as well, so I will contact them and see if this is true. Good to hear, but it really should have been in there from the start. As for vac vs. sanding... I suppose that's a bit of a personal preference, but I think it would be hard to argue that the vac part shouldn't have been in there in the first place. I mean, clearly Wingman think it's an important part of the conversion - that's why it's included in the conversion set available on their website. What I do not like is the “badmouthing” going on in the forums – talk or write to them directly and tell them your opinion or ask for a replacement. Yeah, no. I will not abide someone trying to squash discussion. I have no problem with people voicing their opinions and starting a back-and-forth on a topic. I have a BIG problem with people trying to censor conversation, however. Or an honest discussion of a kit's merits and faults. I bought the kit. I was incredibly disappointed in the kit. I did a bunch of digging around to see if my parts were just a one-off bad casting, or whether all the resin suffered the same faults. From what I could find, they do. So I posted my thoughts with large, clear photographs to back up my opinions. Modellers can decide for themselves - if they think the resin looks okay, then by all means, go and buy a kit. If they're as unhappy with it as I am, then they can save their money - I *wish* I had seen pictures like this before splashing out on the kit. But frankly, I'd be even more upset with the Wingman Kfir if all I'd ever seen were wonderful, glowing reviews... because the kit just would not live up to them because the resin detail is visibly, to the naked eye, not very good. So don’t give these newcomers the extra kick in the stomach Except, they're NOT new. Air Doc has been around since the late 90's. They've been producing resin sets for at *least* a decade. Ditto IsraDecals/IsraCast. It's a new product line from old manufacturers. THEY SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN THIS. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jenshb Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 All very well to say that but.. Mr Weiss was at Telford in November, one of my friends , bought an Alpha Jet and Kfir . He opened the box when we went back to our club table, and immediately took it back, asked for an exchange, pointing out a bad flaw in two of the castings.. Mr Weiss insisted that there was nothing wrong, then when pointed out ,further said that every casting run "gets a bad one now and again..." Well, that's one attitude to customer service... Luckily it doesn't tend to last long as either the business folds or the company decides to change tune. Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
phantomdriver Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) trust me, I know from several other people, he's not easy to deal with.. he never answers emails if written in English, for starters......... Edited January 13, 2014 by phantomdriver Quote Link to post Share on other sites
coneheadff Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 (edited) Well, Andreas Klein from Airdoc just wrote a couple of sentences at the Flugzeugforum. Actually he only commented the windscreen of the late Kfir and the missing speed brakes of the Alpha Jet. He wrote that he had asked "many" modelers before releasing the Kfir kit and "most" of them denied a vacu windshield!? And while everybody is accepting the removal of a seam line with Hase and Tamiya, he's not understanding why everybody is picking on them. Well, he received a quick answer on that...It is something else removing surplus material and having an even thick canopy and the procedure he's asking for. On the other hand...they are offering free vacu replacements for the first 200 bought Kfirs. Edited January 14, 2014 by coneheadff Quote Link to post Share on other sites
polybebber Posted January 13, 2014 Share Posted January 13, 2014 trust me, I know from several other people, he's not easy to deal with.. he never answers emails if writtrn in English, for starters......... Not true, a few months back I wrote him an email in English complaining about the poor quality of their 1/48 C.7 conversion set . I've received an answer in English within 48 hrs. plus a very reasonable offer to compensate for the the trouble. I guess sometimes it's a matter of HOW you say things. Lothar Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scvrobeson Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 That's a very nicely done Kfir up above. Looks like even with the "problems" the kit can still produce a great model out of it. I would much rather take good fit of a resin cockpit over sparkling detail that will get destroyed trying to get it to fit. And it's not like the Kfir/Mirage cockpit is especially busy to begin with. It's a pretty spartan place Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I would much rather take good fit of a resin cockpit over sparkling detail that will get destroyed trying to get it to fit. I disagree. Why would I want a perfectly fitting resin cockpit with not much improved (or worse) detail over the kit parts? Even if I have to fight to fit a highly detailed cockpit, the time saved in creating the convincing detail (even after the surgery to get it to fit) would be enough to consider it. My interest is the Cheetah... I do believe in giving new companies a chance to improve so hopefully they will have so I can build something like this: Atlas Cheetah D. Jaco Du Plessis Regards, Edited July 2, 2015 by sharkmouth Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Vince Maddux Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I disagree. Why would I want a perfectly fitting resin cockpit with not much improved (or worse) detail over the kit parts? Even if I have to fight to fit a highly detailed cockpit, the time saved in creating the convincing detail (even after the surgery to get it to fit) would be enough to consider it. My interest is the Cheetah... I do believe in giving new companies a chance to improve so hopefully they will have so I can build something liek this: Atlas Cheetah D. Jaco Du Plessis Regards, Not saying its a bad scheme, but man is that bright and loud! I need sunglasses for that one. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
scvrobeson Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) I disagree. Why would I want a perfectly fitting resin cockpit with not much improved (or worse) detail over the kit parts? Even if I have to fight to fit a highly detailed cockpit, the time saved in creating the convincing detail (even after the surgery to get it to fit) would be enough to consider it. That Cheetah is sexy, wouldn't mind one of those on the shelf. I think the fit is more important to me, because I've dealt with Aires too often. I spend days painting and weathering it to my standards, only to watch that hard work get destroyed trying to sand and grind it into the fuselage. It's disheartening. But it's not like the Kfir has a cockpit as complicated as a Tomcat's. It's pretty plain in there, so it's not like you'd need to run six miles of wire and add workable buttons to everything. Edited January 14, 2014 by scvrobeson Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Dmanton300 Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Not saying its a bad scheme, but man is that bright and loud! I need sunglasses for that one. I am, that's hideous! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
sharkmouth Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 I think the fit is more important to me, because I've dealt with Aires too often... But it's not like the Kfir has a cockpit as complicated as a Tomcat's. It's pretty plain in there, so it's not like you'd need to run six miles of wire and add workable buttons to everything. That was my point. On a simple cockpit, is time really saved over doing the work oneself? Buying a resin detail set whose outcome is on par or less than my own detailing work is unacceptable regardless of fit. Note, I usually rework both the kit and resin to get a fit before painting as I too have suffered the Aires wrath, I am, that's hideous! Definitely hideous and the reason I like it! Regards, Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andreas Klein Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) Hello gentlemen! Let me introduce myself. I am Andreas Klein co-owner of Wingman Models and proprietor of AirDOC. I like to thank everyone of you for your comments - positive as well as negative feedback. I like to explain the situation that we are currently facing. About a year ago AirDOC and IsraDecals started a joint venture. Our intention is and was to create high-class models of interesting topics at a decent price. For this we wanted to combine the best materials – high class resin, great decals, nicely turned brass and Kabuki masking paper. Our decals are printed by Cartograf, while the Pitots are from Master in Poland and our resin masters are printed in Israel on an high-end Envision 3D printer by MPM Modelling, which is also the importer of EnvisionTec printers for the Middle East. Much to our surprise a lot of critizism is raining down on us 1) in respect to the details and 2) to the printing. For some weeks now we are trying to find out what actually went wrong. Unfortunately we were unable to detect any flaws in our files. The actual 3D data looks amazing and on the spot - being closer to the original then scratch building. But here is where our mistake in thinking lays: scratch building always over exaggerates the details while our designer prepared the files as is, meaning as the original would look like seen from 48 meters away. This is something we did not recognize as being problematic, as the files on the screen still look full of detail and crisp. Not so when printed - details become wishy-washy and without undercuts hard to accentuate e.g with dry-brushing. OK, lesson learned here – for future projects we are having much more details included. This is not a field were we intended to save money but which simply wasn't clear to us. For our Fouga Magister project and the double-seat KFIR conversion we might also go back to scratch building – at least partially. The masters are a different matter. Today we had a very long chat with MPM Modelling about the problems we face and that we are currently cruzified also because of their "bad" printing. Today we learned another thing, which one doesn't need to know when using scratch built masters: the direction of printing. If parts are printed vertically e.d. a bulkhead standing up, the part is formed by adding layer by layer by layer leaving the visible horizontally lines. If you turn those parts that need a flat surface by 90° and have it printed horizontally then no lines are showing because they form behind the part. To be honest – we did not know that and MPM did not tell us until now. So, for the future we will make sure that the masters receive our full attention before printing and that the printer will receive directions how to cast them. And if still some lines will show – more buffing from our side.... Another issue was the C10 windshield. Over the last year we attended more then 7 to 10 modelling shows in Europe and we asked our customers and fellow modellers about vacu-formed parts and their acceptance with jet model community. The majority was against it so here the idea of sanding and buffing the C10 windshield was born. You will accept that we are not going to invest in an injection plastic canopy when the basic model is not ours. OK, all-in-all big mistake – lesson learned the hard way. We have the vacu-formed windshields now available and we offer a set of two for as little as two Euros to be shipped to all of you who bought our kits without it (only the first 200 kits where delivered with out). And before the storm brakes loose why not for free – because its the shipping and packing costs. We don't want the parts to arrive in bad condition so we will send them in blisters. Here I hope for your understanding, as the core of modelers contributing here in ARC and most probably wanting the windshields are from abroad... Oh, BTW, yes we try to stand beside you and not behind you ... thanks for the soap comparison. Last but not least the lack of ordinance. The basic kit is the Kinetic KFIR kit, which in the original packing has 1) too short wing tanks and 2) Python III missiles. The tanks haven't been corrected yet by Kinetic so we cannot include those as plastic parts. The Pythons were taken from the Kinetic F-16I / Weapons kit. If we wanted to include the Pythons the retail price of the Wingman kit would be about 10 Euros (or 15 to 20 USD) higher. For Kinetic this is no problem as it's their own stuff. Why more expensive for us? The missile is only a small part of the weapons spruce. If we want them, Kinetic has to inject the whole spruce, cut the missiles off the tree and dump the rest. And I doubt you want to spent the extra money for injection plastic when some really great missiles in resin are out on the market. So, if you intend to buy all items on their own what do you have to pay? One KFIR kit 35 Euros, decals 20 Euros, cockpit 15 Euros, C.10 conversion 15 Euros, Pitots 6 Euros and masking 6 Euros - summing up to 97 Euros or 130 USD. Not everyone is willing to pay this amount and with extra wing tanks we had to charge even more. Then we would not only have a discussion about bad resin but also about screwing you as well ... The only thing we from Wingman Models can do is to apologize and hope for your understanding. There is a big lesson learned here and for our future projects we are going to find a better approach and will handle the main areas in a complete different way. Best wishes to all! Andreas P.S. Ra'anan Weiss is receiving hundreds of e-mails per week from all over the globe. He tries to answer them all but this is virtually impossible ... Edited January 14, 2014 by Andreas Klein Quote Link to post Share on other sites
gregair Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Wow, that is a very honest reply! Thank you for taking the time to give the explanations Andreas and I hope all goes well with future productions. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
mario krijan Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Mr. Andreas Thanks for your answer. :-) respect :-) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
coneheadff Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Welcome to the forum Andreas, As I said on Flugzeugforum I would like to thank you for your great response and behind the scene info! It is an honest and fair reply. Viele Grüße, Alex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Laurent Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 (edited) It's great when manufacturers explain things to the choices their constraints and their choices like Andreas and Raymond did. I'd love to read explanations from Trumpeter, HB and others. Edited January 14, 2014 by Laurent Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn van der flier Posted January 14, 2014 Share Posted January 14, 2014 Thank you Andreas, but then the next question, how can you apply for these windshields as I have one of those early kits. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jenshb Posted January 15, 2014 Share Posted January 15, 2014 Thank you Andreas, but then the next question, how can you apply for these windshields as I have one of those early kits. Yes, I too would like to know how you can apply for these windshields. Is there an email address Andreas, or can we email or PM you directly? Jens Quote Link to post Share on other sites
MoFo Posted January 15, 2014 Author Share Posted January 15, 2014 First and foremost let me say, thanks for taking the time to address the concerns. I should also point out, the kit was so disappointing to me specifically *because* AirDoc and IsraDecal usually make great products. The resin in the Kfir just was not up to the standards I've come to expect from you guys. For some weeks now we are trying to find out what actually went wrong. Unfortunately we were unable to detect any flaws in our files. The actual 3D data looks amazing and on the spot - being closer to the original then scratch building. But here is where our mistake in thinking lays: scratch building always over exaggerates the details while our designer prepared the files as is, meaning as the original would look like seen from 48 meters away. This is something we did not recognize as being problematic, as the files on the screen still look full of detail and crisp. Not so when printed - details become wishy-washy and without undercuts hard to accentuate e.g with dry-brushing. I certainly understand this point. When you're working on a CAD model and can zoom in as much as you want, its easy to forget that the enormous-looking bolt is actually only .1mm tall. It's a struggle to balance what will look good, with what is to scale. But I think that a bigger issue with your parts is the hand-finishing. The 'wishy-washy' detail could have been sharpened up with some careful hand-refining. Shave some corners. Scribe some edges. No part is going to come out of the printer completely ready for casting; the real quality comes in the hand finishing. The masters are a different matter. Today we had a very long chat with MPM Modelling about the problems we face and that we are currently cruzified also because of their "bad" printing. Today we learned another thing, which one doesn't need to know when using scratch built masters: the direction of printing. Yes, print orientation is critical. It can make your life a lot easier, or make it a living nightmare. But frankly, this all raises another question in my mind. How much hands-on contact did you have with the actual, printed masters? I mean, it sucks when the prints don't come out as you'd hoped, but still, didn't anyone see the parts or think to re-work them? I guess I just don't understand how a modeller who is so passionate about detail that they start an aftermarket company could be surprised when customers are unhappy with a cockpit that looks like this: I'm not trying to crucify you here; I'm genuinely curious. Maybe you have outsourced your casting and never actually saw the prints. I just don't understand how anyone could look at a part like that and not want to fix it. Replace the blurry detail, or at least try to sharpen it up. We have the vacu-formed windshields now available and we offer a set of two for as little as two Euros to be shipped to all of you who bought our kits without it (only the first 200 kits where delivered with out). And before the storm brakes loose why not for free – because its the shipping and packing costs. We don't want the parts to arrive in bad condition so we will send them in blisters. Fair enough. So where do we send for the canopies? Last but not least the lack of ordinance. I wasn't that upset about the lack of ordnance. It would have been great if it were included, but I knew going in, from the pics at Lucky Model, that it wasn't. Also, my kit includes the (partially) corrected Kinetic tanks, which was a pleasant surprise. The only thing we from Wingman Models can do is to apologize and hope for your understanding. There is a big lesson learned here and for our future projects we are going to find a better approach and will handle the main areas in a complete different way. Well I personally hope you can sort things out and that the Magister is a huge success. I think the 'superkit' idea holds a lot of promise. And, if your resin lives up to that promise, I'll be buying more Wingman kits in the future. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Andreas Klein Posted January 16, 2014 Share Posted January 16, 2014 Hello together! Thanks for all of your replies, which is a big help and relief to us. We certainly will do everything to increase the quality of our products. In re to obtain the windshields please drop us an e-mail – andreasklein@airdoc.eu – and if not too much hassle, add a photo of the front of the C10 instructions. Transfer the 2€ to our Paypal account (same address as for the e-mail) and we immediately will dispatch the windshield. Thanks in advance and all the best! Andreas Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bjorn van der flier Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 Andreas, thank you for your help. 1 other thing, on the website you are refering to, the shopofphantoms.com, with the Alpha jet there is a colour painting guide available for download, is there a possibility that we can get one for the KFIR too? I do have some reference photo's as I have seen some for real, but only n a flying condition, and not on ground and cockpit shots. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
A.C.Acikgoz Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 I think the co-owner of wingman model is burning the oxygen in the air at diffrerent way than we are... he is telling a good story but did not answer the main question; why did they sell all those junks if they KNOW that they have desing and/or production problems? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
l fritz Posted January 17, 2014 Share Posted January 17, 2014 From reading Mr. Klein's post, it would seem that the resin was completely outsourced to a firm to 3D print the masters, use those to master the resin, and then cast and ship the final product. That was sent "dock to stock" to Wingman and packaged and shipped to the end users (us). That is esentially a very similar process to how it is done on real aircraft as well. Perhaps a process improvement for the future is to follow the process used on real A/C: Do a "First Article" inspection of the part intended for the master prior to creating the mold, and then do a "First Article" inspection of the product of the mold, before production actually starts, to insure the product is what is intended, and make any revisions before release. ("Hickups" happen on the real stuff too!) I look forward to buying one of the Kfir C10's as finances allow, forarmed that I will have to do some modelling, not just assembly. I also hope that the future is bright for Wingman. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Nuno Andresen Posted January 20, 2014 Share Posted January 20, 2014 Well, I don't know where to start. First, I red reviews highly praising the resin parts of Wingman Kfirs. Then, reading this topic, the parts are everything but great. I would like to add something, now about the Alpha Jet. First, Andreas, allow me to congratulate you for the initiative of releasing the kit of the Portuguese Alpha's. Also, allow me to add that the decals are greatly produced and the Kinetic model is, frankly awesome. I don't know why the Kinetic Alpha Jet is not subject of many topics a bit all around, perhaps because the subject itself is not so "popular", but it is a pity, because Kinetic pattern makers exceed themselves in this release. It may not be an Emil, or a Spit but it is a fantastic miniature. My concern are the resins. These are copies of one of my samples: Please Anders, this is not a shot, take this as pure disappointment: Have you ever looked at these parts before releasing the kit? I am going to be the most honest that I can: If someone would present me these masters I would ask him to do it all over again. Please realize why I am saying this: First the tub is severely less detailed than the plastic part it is supposed to replace in the excellent Kinetic model. And second because I red your statements but someone did not told you the whole story: The throttle quadrant is replicated as a combination of two triangles and a cylinder: It is a very basic knowledge of 3D modelling: This is how things start to model a shape, but it is not how things end, far from it. I hope I can express myself clearly through a screen, here. So the result is a part devoided of detail. When you say you saw the parts on a screen before, please believe me: On a print and on a screen a cylinder is a cylinder: But a throttle quadrant is a shape far more involving rather than this. Please understand, the price we pay is a premium price. So, a premium price requires premium parts. What we bring home is a model where the resin parts are a downgrade of the plastic parts. This is frankly something new to me. Positively: the decals are great, the Kabuki masking are fantastical well produced, the donor model is an amazing kit no one must forget, the metal pitot tube is a great bonus and the resin pod is greatly made too. But negatively ... please understand, the cockpit parts are, how can I say, if I can use these terms, they are "soft", "dull", "unappealing". Their detail, particularly the tub, is absent. :(/>/> I belong to the group that makes his own cockpits if things are not ok ... if the kit had costed me a dine I would never complain, but for this price I had to show my feelings, particularly because someone decided to place these parts in the market, and may be thinking they are fine, when they are not - with my total honesty it has to be the very first time I see resin parts lower on detail than the injection moulded parts they intend to replace :(/>/> To end positively, Andreas, congratulations above all on your efforts! There are many other Portuguese Alpha's you may wish to create decals. This is just one example: I sincerely hope so! And please take our comments the positive way. Sincerely, improve the resin parts, inspect them well, confrontate them with the real parts, confrontate them with the plastic parts they intend to replace, confrontate them with your competitors, demand more (and frankly more!) from the modelling guys you work with, and you'll be a winner! You have good ideas and good concepts, you bring fresh air, but please don't let yourself be fooled by parts that don't even look they are aircraft parts. Best wishes on your business Andreas! Raymond, if you're also reading this - congratulate everyone in the Kinetic team! This Alpha is true premiere league! Bring many more like these along the pipe in a future nearby! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.