Wingman Kfir: Most disappointing release of the year?

[erik_g]

But here is where our mistake in thinking lays: scratch building always over exaggerates the details while our designer prepared the files as is, meaning as the original would look like seen from 48 meters away.

I think this is a big mistake. We, model builders do not want something that with a little bit of paint looks good at one meter. At a distance of one meter, cockpit detail is hardly visible even if you have installed and skillfully painted the best cockpit that producers like Aires can master.

We want cockpits, and other detail, that are so good that we really believe we can scale ourselves down to 1/48, sit in the bang seat and play around with the switches on the throttle. At least that is what I want from an after market cockpit. We want the detailing to look good at one scale meter (about 21mm).

[jenshb]

Well, I transferred my €2 to Andreas on Thursday the 16th, and on Monday the 20th the courier attempted to deliver the package. Picked them up from the depot the following day. The canopies were well packaged in a large box (probably DPD's standard minimum size?) they arrived safe and sound. Thank you for prompt service Andreas!

Jens

[SouthViper]

Not saying its a bad scheme, but man is that bright and loud! I need sunglasses for that one.

From : http://razonyfuerza.mforos.com/549930/9092216-ffaa-de-ecuador-parte-2/?pag=9

En esta imagen se aprecian las más importantes modificaciones aplicadas a la célula básica del Kfir C2/C7 que dieron como resultado la variante Cheetah C. Nueva sección frontal que alberga un radar ELTA 2032 y otra aviónica, nuevo parabrisas frontal de una sola pieza, una sección adicional de 58 cm por detrás de la cabina, lanza de reaprovisionamiento de combustible en vuelo, aletas canard, borde de ataque alar con el característico “diente de perro” y diversas antenas del sistema RWR/TWR. Las dimensiones del HUD gran angular son también más que aparentes (foto F. Hugo/IPMS South Africa).

Image and text published here under fair use of images for illustrations purposes only.

SV

Edited January 25, 2014 by SouthViper

[jenshb]

From what I can see, the Cheetah C nose is shorter than the C10 whereas the fuselage behind the cockpit is longer, and the nose gear retains it's original position rather than following the cockpit(as was done on the Mirage IIIE and V). Supposedly some of the avionics located behind the cockpit on the Cheetah C are located in the extended nose of the Kfir C10?

Jens

[phantomdriver]

From reading Mr. Klein's post, it would seem that the resin was completely outsourced to a firm to 3D print the masters, use those to master the resin, and then cast and ship the final product. That was sent "dock to stock" to Wingman and packaged and shipped to the end users (us). That is esentially a very similar process to how it is done on real aircraft as well.

Perhaps a process improvement for the future is to follow the process used on real A/C: Do a "First Article" inspection of the part intended for the master prior to creating the mold, and then do a "First Article" inspection of the product of the mold, before production actually starts, to insure the product is what is intended, and make any revisions before release.

("Hickups" happen on the real stuff too!)

I look forward to buying one of the Kfir C10's as finances allow, forarmed that I will have to do some modelling, not just assembly. I also hope that the future is bright for Wingman.

If the 3D printing was outsourced, that is no excuse for the final product not to have been proofed and checked before being cleared for sale to the consumer.

This is especially important ,as this was a case where it was at the product launch....

[Nuno Andresen]

I think this is a big mistake. We, model builders do not want something that with a little bit of paint looks good at one meter. At a distance of one meter, cockpit detail is hardly visible even if you have installed and skillfully painted the best cockpit that producers like Aires can master.We want cockpits, and other detail, that are so good that we really believe we can scale ourselves down to 1/48, sit in the bang seat and play around with the switches on the throttle. At least that is what I want from an after market cockpit. We want the detailing to look good at one scale meter (about 21mm).

Sorry to all, but I could only return now to this topic.

You see Eric, please allow me to disagree. Let's say "1/48" does not mean seeing something seen 48 meters away. An object 96mm high and 48 mm wide in your left hand can be represented in your right hand in 1/48 scale by having 2mm high and 1mm wide. And they are both at close contact.

I am very tolerant, specially to newcomers that have a will to do something new and gladly this is the case. In the case of the Alphajet everything really seems to be the best possibly available. Kinetic kit is frankly fantastic, Kabuki markings too, decals are the very best in design money can buy and the metal pitot tube is the cherry on top of the cake.

So these are all 10's! Therefore, what happened to the resin to be the complete opposite of all this top quality?

First mistake, and the biggest too, was to place these parts in the kit. As the detail is absent, the parts are senseless. I would like to take Andreas arguments and tolerate a beginners fault, that happens to all. But I won't because the story is not clear and Andreas may believe in it, falling in the same thing the next time: One of the biggest causes newcomers fail in entrepreneurial projects, not alone in modelling, is to take the word of who they subcontract as an absolute true.

Someone may have told him that,but inspecting the resin parts one sees that it has no correspondence. If there were problems with overscaling detail to make it visible, than all modeling themes and all aftermarket sets would suffer from the same. And they don't.

But second, detail, even if small, would be visible - and it is not. And third - the shapes would be there - and they are not. Only some very soft, vague and abstract shapes without correspondence to reality.

These resin parts, specially the tub, only show a very basic understatement of 3D modelling software and a very light approach: We are in 2014, how many hundreds of sets are out there! And that is why I am writing - in order to focus the real problem: A lazy job or a soft job that spoils the overall product. And the people doing it had previous experience - so why did this happened?

Wingman really wanted to deliver a top quality product. That is perfectly perceivable. However, correct management has to be hard when this happens: These resin parts would never be placed in the box, and excuses should have never been accepted.

I sincerely hope, Wingman and Andreas will bring many more new releases in a future nearby, but benchmark competitors and take no bush league parts in premium kits.

I like premium kits, I like initiatives, I like newcomers. I hope I could be clear regarding this issue: Please see things well before selling them! Please do! Above all, don't take this again!

[Dave Williams]

I think people need to understand not all resin is Aires/Quickboost. They may set the standard, but that's what they do as a full time business and they have invested a lot of money in the technology to mass produce resin detail sets of high quality. Their sets are pretty pricy also, which isn't unreasonable considering the quality. A much smaller company who is just making a relatively small number of sets to add to limited editions of a kit isn't going to make the same quality resin.

[phantomdriver]

That's no excuse for poor quality control.

People like Two Mikes/ Royale resin are small time, yet can pull off amazing results, yet use conventional means(not 3d printing) to make their stuff.

[MoFo]

I think people need to understand not all resin is Aires/Quickboost. They may set the standard, but that's what they do as a full time business and they have invested a lot of money in the technology to mass produce resin detail sets of high quality.... A much smaller company who is just making a relatively small number of sets to add to limited editions of a kit isn't going to make the same quality resin.

True, not everyone is AiRes. And as I said up front, if this were being cranked out by some guy in his basement, I'd be a lot more forgiving.

But this ISN'T some guy in his basement. It's two very well established names in the aftermarket industry - they've got at least 30 years of experience between them. They may not be quite as big as AiRes, but they're nowhere near as tiny as Buff Master. And they should know better. THAT is what's so disappointing about it. They're selling big expectations, they've got the reputation to deliver on them, but the end result looks like your modelling buddy who's just starting out.

The problem isn't the resin. The resin is nice. The resin is just as good as anyone out there. The castings are clean and bubble free, no warpage or distortion. The problem is, the masters were poor, which means they made really nicely cast copies of crappy parts.

And that's the crux of my complaint. The masters are *obviously* flawed. The cockpit sidewalls are laughable. (in my opinion, it *looks* like they failed to clean up the support wax; I don't think it's the CAD model, I don't think it's a corrupted STL file, and I don't think it's a printer issue) And yet nobody along the line batted an eye, or thought that maybe they should give it a second look. The parts were printed, examined, okayed, cast in resin, test prints examined and okayed, put into full production, several hundred sets poured, bagged, boxed up and shipped out and at no point along that chain did anyone think "hmmm, I wonder if our customers will be mad that the side console is just one big indiscernible blob?"

It's not the worst release of the year. It's not the most inaccurate, or ill-fitting. It's not the most head-scratchingly obscure, why-would-they-tool-THAT release. But two well regarded names in aftermarket details PROMISED it was a super kit, yet the actual product is, in most instances, inferior to the kit parts it is meant to replace. What else can you call that but a massive disappointment.

[Daryl J.]

Color commentary but perhaps pertinent: In dentistry, we are running into the same problem with 3D printed masters for dental crowns...they often do not fit. The printers and software people are adamant their work is 'accurate' and it has to be the Doc's fault. So one of the major companies involved had the guys who 'know their work is accurate' do some demos. It flat out sucked because the errors were so bad. It was bad enough the comparison of Gaudi's architecture to plumb and square is in order. I think similar struggles are being seen here in the modeling world. Stereolithography is very cool, but it is also not yet developed to even a juvenile level. But when the technology matures.......! :-)

[erik_g]

You see Eric, please allow me to disagree. Let's say "1/48" does not mean seeing something seen 48 meters away. An object 96mm high and 48 mm wide in your left hand can be represented in your right hand in 1/48 scale by having 2mm high and 1mm wide. And they are both at close contact.

I was responding to the claim from Andreas that they designed the cockpit so that it would look at the distance of one meter like the real deal looks at a distance of 48 meters.

I am not sure if I follow your argument, but my point is that that's not good enough, at least not for the more demanding of us. When we take pictures for posting online, or let our models be scrutinized at shows, or just play around with the kit while building it, imagining ourselves at the controls (come on guys, I know you do!), we are not looking at the kit at the distance of one meter. We´re looking at it up close. Just holding the model brings it closer than one meter. Most of us does not even have one meter long arms. The resolution of detail must therefore be a lot better than a benchmark of "What would you see if you looked at the real deal at 48 meters".

Reading the rest of your post makes me think we´re on the same page. Maybe just a language problem. English is not my first language, and not yours either, I guess?

best regards

Erik G

[habu2]

I was responding to the claim from Andreas that they designed the cockpit so that it would look at the distance of one meter like the real deal looks at a distance of 48 meters.

I am not sure if I follow your argument, but my point is that that's not good enough, at least not for the more demanding of us.

By his logic a kit should look the same at 1" as a real plane does at 48".

[Nuno Andresen]

Yep Eric!

We are talking in the same trend. Communicating trough a screen is always a tweak to insure we pass the correct message.

To sum up, I completely agree with MoFo in and this sums up well the whole situation: "And yet nobody along the line batted an eye, or thought that maybe they should give it a second look. The parts were printed, examined, okayed, cast in resin, test prints examined and okayed, put into full production, several hundred sets poured, bagged, boxed up and shipped out and at no point along that chain did anyone think "hmmm, I wonder if our customers will be mad that the side console is just one big indiscernible blob?"

What hurts ... but really hurts, is that if these resin parts were great,than the model would be unanimously applauded. Because all other items are fantastic!

[SonyKen]

All,

I am going to bump this subject to ask a question. It is now almost ten months since the last post to this thread and I was wondering if there had been any improvements in the Wingman Kits, especially the resin parts? I had an opportunity to trade for one of the Kfir kits but decided to pass after reading this thread, because I have always believed that resin cockpits when done properly yield a better looking model than a "box stock" cockpit. Because there are limitations on the plastic molding process that you don't have when casting resin.

Anyway there are a lot of the Wingman kits on Ebay that pretty much reflect that prices of these are twice what the standard Kinectic kits are. For me, for the vast majority of my kits I will buy the resin cocpit/upgrades for them if they are available. So my question is are these kits a more current production an has the company addressed the problems in the resin from this thread. Thanks for the information!

Best Regards,

Ken Bailey

(SonyKen)

[Vince Maddux]

Ken,

I built my F-21 with just the Kinectic kit, Furball decals and a brass pitot tube. I built a really nice model for way under the cost of the Wingman's kit. Like you I have felt that aftermarked resin needs to add detail to the kit, not look like something that was injection molded. I just can't justify the cost for resin parts that doesn't look too much different then what is in the kit.

[a4s4eva]

Actually the resin I saw looked much better with the naked eye then the hi rez shots here

[mrvark]

A friend recently picked up one of these when Squadron had them on sale and the resin looked fine. Perhaps they quietly redid their molds...

[Deino]

Here are images of their latest releases ... the TC-2 and the RC-2 ! (however You need to sign in)

http://www.flugzeugforum.de/threads/75194-Wingman-Models/page29

Deino

[dragonlance]

I got a set of Wingman resin wheels for Alpha Jet last week (from a Hong Kong vendor).

Not impressed. Rough surface, weak detail plus one mainwheel half was somewhat wider, it looks like the RTV broke.

The Kinetic kit arrived several days later. At the first glance, the resin wheels are not a big improvement over the kit parts.

Maybe I'm spoiled by Aires and other eastern European aftermarket producers. Looks like I'll stay spoiled.

Vedran

[andyrens]

after running across this thread, I grimaced and reached for my F-21 kit...

Looks like cockpit is fine...and is an improvement. Wheels are better only in having tread. TACTS and drop tank look good. The exhaust is better than kit, but not as detailed as Aires. Ill run with it as im not interested in adding another $20.

The one concern I did have was the E-seat. That sucker is SMALL. at least it looks like it. Maybe Im just used to oversized resin by others?

Andy

[g0_command0]

Has anyone looked at the new TC2 or the recon bird boxings? Curious in those two

[Gary F]

Hi g0,

I have the RC2 kit. What do you want to know? I'm trying to find out if the canopy from a Heller Mirage IIIB will fit the TC2 ... if it does I will get the TC2 also, otherwise, no vac canopy for me.

[g0_command0]

Hi g0,

I have the RC2 kit. What do you want to know? I'm trying to find out if the canopy from a Heller Mirage IIIB will fit the TC2 ... if it does I will get the TC2 also, otherwise, no vac canopy for me.

I'm curious into the quality of the resin pieces .

[Gary F]

Hi g0,

Looking at the resin in my Latin Kfir and the RC2 kits:

Exhaust cans look the same.

RC2 older style seat looks to have a bit more detail and looks more crisply molded.

The C2 instrument panels look the same to me.

Cockpit sidewall parts look the same.

RC2 cockpit tub has more detail and looks more crisply molded. The nose gear well under the pit tub has more detail and it too looks more crisply molded.

The RC2 wheels are more crisp than the Latin parts. The side walls of the tires are smooth also and show none of the 'ribbing' effect pointed out in the Latin Kfir release.

The rest of the resin in the RC2 is not in the Latin Kfir so can't really compare to anything else I have. The surfaces on those parts seems smooth where I would expect it to be. Haven't cut anything apart to check fit so can't comment on that. I'm happy with what's in the RC2 box.

Hope that helps.

[g0_command0]

Thx Gary, how the vacuuform canopy looking?