motorcycle rack for Little Birds

[ccrqw]

I was doing some research on a build of 160th helicopters and read that the MH-6J/M has provisions to carry motorcycles, one on each side. And I thought what a great diorama out of the norm...so the question is, does any one have pictures or can describe the configuration without getting into OPSEC issues?

[Loach Driver]

I went through my photos and found nothing. I'd guess that Little Birds carrying motorcycles, in training exercises or on real-world missions, was something of a rarity but you never know.

The only photos I've seen of helicopters carrying motorbikes have been Japanese BK117s and a photo of a Huey, that I think cropped up here on ARC a while ago. Sorry I can't offer any more help.

LD.

[ccrqw]

I went through my photos and found nothing. I'd guess that Little Birds carrying motorcycles, in training exercises or on real-world missions, was something of a rarity but you never know.

The only photos I've seen of helicopters carrying motorbikes have been Japanese BK117s and a photo of a Huey, that I think cropped up here on ARC a while ago. Sorry I can't offer any more help.

LD.

Thanks for looking , greatly appreciated. I might just figure out how to attach them to the MH-60L diorama instead, or just place them strategically in the battle space. It is all good in modeling, we control the horizontal , we control the vertical :cheers:/>

Edited January 1, 2014 by ccrqw602002

[FM-Whip]

I was doing some research on a build of 160th helicopters and read that the MH-6J/M has provisions to carry motorcycles, one on each side. And I thought what a great diorama out of the norm...so the question is, does any one have pictures or can describe the configuration without getting into OPSEC issues?

The rack is made from tubes arranged horizontally in the place of a personnel seat. There are metal end plates on each end. There are a couple of angled struts running from this structure up to the fuselage. It's hard to describe - it's quite complicated. I have a couple of photos somewhere and if you can give me a week or so I should be able to dig them out.

This rack has been shown publicly several times on static display at air shows, especially NAS Oceana, but it's not gotten good photo coverage, at least not that's on the net.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[ccrqw]

wow now that is exciting news! thank you greatly appreciated

[Loach Driver]

I second that, John. I'd love to see what happened when Evel Knievel met the Night Stalkers!

LD.

[FM-Whip]

I was doing some research on a build of 160th helicopters and read that the MH-6J/M has provisions to carry motorcycles, one on each side. And I thought what a great diorama out of the norm...so the question is, does any one have pictures or can describe the configuration without getting into OPSEC issues?

Here's what I've got:

As displayed publicly at NAS Oceana in 1999, photo by Jim Strauss:

From my collection:

A different kind of rack which may be some sort of motorcycle rack:

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[Loach Driver]

A big thank you, John, for those photos. It is amazing to see yet another significant version of the H-6J. :thumbsup:/> It is also very interesting to see the level of weathering on that helicopter. Would that suggest that this helicopter has come back from a live operation?

As usual, John, I have a bunch of questions, opsec notwithstanding.

1. How many motorbikes could be carried on the rack? (I'd guess maybe two, lightweight, motorbikes with two riders seated on the people plank on the opposite side.)

2. Do you know what the "rack" or "rail" is for on the modified people plank? I can't figure that one out.

3. Does anyone know what model of motorbike might have been in use by Delta or whoever else the "customer" might be?

4. Is there any possibility that the motorcycle transport version of the Little Bird would have been given a new designation? (Probably not but it would be interesting if they did.)

Thanks again, John.

LD.

Edit; I did a little digging and it looks like the motorbike carried by the MH-6 is/was the Kawasaki KLX110 mini bike. It is mentioned here in this link.

http://www.americanspecialops.com/vehicles/motorcycles/

Edited January 16, 2014 by Loach Driver

[DrGlueblob]

The KLR Kawasaki is the standard Marine issue scout motorcycle. The ones I've seen are diesel conversions of stock Kawasaki KLR gas-engine 650s. I see the KX110 listed too. http://olive-drab.com/idphoto/id_photos_m1030_m1d.php

The KLR makes sense as it's running a common fuel with other vehicles. It's larger than the minibike, +,- 600lb. It can carry more and range is better.

I also see that CRF (four-stroke) Honda 450. Lighter at around 350lb.

Tamiya made a scout cycle set in 1/35 back in the 80's. The bike built up well, although I can't remember what kind it was.

Edited January 16, 2014 by DrGlueblob

[FM-Whip]

A big thank you, John, for those photos. It is amazing to see yet another significant version of the H-6J. :thumbsup:/>/>/>/>/> It is also very interesting to see the level of weathering on that helicopter. Would that suggest that this helicopter has come back from a live operation?

As usual, John, I have a bunch of questions, opsec notwithstanding.

1. How many motorbikes could be carried on the rack? (I'd guess maybe two, lightweight, motorbikes with two riders seated on the people plank on the opposite side.)

2. Do you know what the "rack" or "rail" is for on the modified people plank? I can't figure that one out.

3. Does anyone know what model of motorbike might have been in use by Delta or whoever else the "customer" might be?

4. Is there any possibility that the motorcycle transport version of the Little Bird would have been given a new designation? (Probably not but it would be interesting if they did.)

Thanks again, John.

LD.

Edit; I did a little digging and it looks like the motorbike carried by the MH-6 is/was the Kawasaki KLX110 mini bike. It is mentioned here in this link.

http://www.americanspecialops.com/vehicles/motorcycles/

I have no definite answers to any of your questions, although looking at the complicated tubular rack I think only one bike per rack. I've heard of USAF PJs or CCTs using these. As to the designation they would not change it just due to some specific item of equipment they were carrying. Nowadays they are all AH/MH-6Ms anyway...

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[ccrqw]

I have no definite answers to any of your questions, although looking at the complicated tubular rack I think only one bike per rack. I've heard of USAF PJs or CCTs using these. As to the designation they would not change it just due to some specific item of equipment they were carrying. Nowadays they are all AH/MH-6Ms anyway...

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

I second that thank you John , good reference material. I plan to use the DML 1:35 World's Elite Force Series U.S. Light Infantry motorcycle to mount on the right side of my MH-6J when I get around to this project. Once again heart felt thanks for the pics.

CC :cheers:/>

Edited January 17, 2014 by ccrqw602002

[Loach Driver]

Thanks for your feedback, John. I think you are correct, it does look like the rack will accommodate only one motorbike. My guess is that a Motorcycle Insertion Little Bird (or MILB ) carries one motorbike with two operators on the people plank. It is probably a two-man job to get the bike off the rack. The rider then sets off on his mission on the bike while the second operator returns on the MILB.

It is also interesting to note that this Little Bird is fitted with a FLIR mount. It would definitely make for an interesting model. If only I could find a suitable motorbike in 1/72 or even 1/87 scale.

LD.

[ccrqw]

Thanks for your feedback, John. I think you are correct, it does look like the rack will accommodate only one motorbike. My guess is that a Motorcycle Insertion Little Bird (or MILB :thumbsup:/>) carries one motorbike with two operators on the people plank. It is probably a two-man job to get the bike off the rack. The rider then sets off on his mission on the bike while the second operator returns on the MILB.

It is also interesting to note that this Little Bird is fitted with a FLIR mount. It would definitely make for an interesting model. If only I could find a suitable motorbike in 1/72 or even 1/87 scale. :bandhead2:/>

LD.

Well if you decide to build in 1/35 I do have an extra bike

[Loach Driver]

Thanks for the offer of a bike but there is a 1/87 bike on ebay that might be useful for a conversion in 1/72 in the future.

I was going through my Little Bird photos today and found this. I didn't realise what this was until now.

It appears to be the same airframe as the one that features in the first photo in John's post.

LD.

[thatguy96]

I was just checking some of the various documents I have collected over the years for something else and stumbled upon some things that might be of relevance to this thread. This is all information from a Army Aviation Engineer Flight Activity report on the airworthiness and flight characteristics of the Model 500D with the Model 530FF drive train (according to the report, it was this conversion of the basic 500D airframe that was designated AH-6G/MH-6H).

The report describes what we have been describing as a motorcycle rack as the "Low Rider," giving the following basic description: "The low rider equipment was installed on both sides of the aircraft and was flown with and without simulated personnel onboard as shown in figure B-46 and B-47. The low rider is used to transport personnel to an objective and allow the personnel to rappel from the aircraft."

Here are the accompanying images (available quality):

Not saying it wasn't also used for motorcycles either, just that at least according to the report, its primary use was personnel.

[DPD1]

I was going to say... That rack doesn't seem like it would be well suited for a bike. The back part is pretty low, and it doesn't seem like fastening a bike on there would be very easy. I would think they'd be able to come up with something a lot better than that.

[11bee]

I was going to say... That rack doesn't seem like it would be well suited for a bike. The back part is pretty low, and it doesn't seem like fastening a bike on there would be very easy. I would think they'd be able to come up with something a lot better than that.

Agreed. I thought those original pictures were a bit sketchy. Plus, what would be the point of a motorcycle rack and the fast rope attachment on the same helo? Kick the bike off from a 25' hover and then fast rope down to it's carcass?

Any info on whether this "low rider" rack is used operationally? I'm not sure what the advantage would be over the regular plank.

[FM-Whip]

I was just checking some of the various documents I have collected over the years for something else and stumbled upon some things that might be of relevance to this thread. This is all information from a Army Aviation Engineer Flight Activity report on the airworthiness and flight characteristics of the Model 500D with the Model 530FF drive train (according to the report, it was this conversion of the basic 500D airframe that was designated AH-6G/MH-6H).

The report describes what we have been describing as a motorcycle rack as the "Low Rider," giving the following basic description: "The low rider equipment was installed on both sides of the aircraft and was flown with and without simulated personnel onboard as shown in figure B-46 and B-47. The low rider is used to transport personnel to an objective and allow the personnel to rappel from the aircraft."

Here are the accompanying images (available quality):

Not saying it wasn't also used for motorcycles either, just that at least according to the report, its primary use was personnel.

This is very interesting. I had I think on a previous Little Bird-related posting said that I had been told that the rack was a "supposed" motorcycle rack but was not 100% sure. I thought I had re-iterated that in this thread but after going back I saw I hadn't written that this time.

The photos I posted showing the details were described to me as specifically of a motorcycle rack. I wonder if we don't have a dual-use system in evidence.

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[Loach Driver]

So an MILB it ain't. :bandhead2:/>

I'd guess that sliding down a rope is easier from a standing position than from the seated position. It does look like it would be difficult to stand for too long on the low rider with the aircraft travelling at any kind of speed. Fatigue would possibly become an issue fairly quickly. However, I agree with John, it is also possible that it could have been used in a secondary role as a motorbike rack. Looking at John's photos though, it looks like the low rider is or was used in live Nightstalker operations so it must have been useful in a very particular scenario that precluded landing at the target or insertion area.

There really is a huge amount of stuff we still don't know about the Nightstalkers and the their Little Birds.

LD.

Edited January 29, 2014 by Loach Driver

[FM-Whip]

So a MILB it ain't. :bandhead2:/>/>

I'd guess that sliding down a rope is easier from a standing position than from the seated position. It does look like it would be difficult to stand for too long on the low rider with the aircraft travelling at any kind of speed. Fatigue would possibly become an issue fairly quickly. However, I agree with John, it is also possible that it could have been used in a secondary role as a motorbike rack. Looking at John's photos though, it looks like the low rider is or was used in live Nightstalker operations so it must have been useful in a very particular scenario that precluded landing at the target or insertion area.

There really is a huge amount of stuff we still don't know about the Nightstalkers and the their Little Birds.

LD.

That report is available on DTIC. I had gone to DTIC years ago to get it in hardcopy but the day I went there they couldn't dig it out. Now it's available as a PDF file.

See http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a218253.pdf

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[thatguy96]

Yeah, that's where I found it. There's also a bibliography of such tests conducted by the Air Qualification Test Directorate and predecessor organizations between 1961 and 1995 on DTIC. This includes mention of other AH-6/MH-6 related reports.

[FM-Whip]

Agreed. I thought those original pictures were a bit sketchy. Plus, what would be the point of a motorcycle rack and the fast rope attachment on the same helo? Kick the bike off from a 25' hover and then fast rope down to it's carcass?

Any info on whether this "low rider" rack is used operationally? I'm not sure what the advantage would be over the regular plank.

Let's say this is 100% confirmed as a motorcycle-carrying rack. If you were going to use it for that there would be no reason to remove the fast-rope rig - the motorcycle operator could be on the other side of the helo, or even sitting on the motorcycle. If it's NOT a motorcycle rack and it carries people in a vertical position, there's still no need to remove the fast-rope rig. You could also have that rack on one side and a conventional flat seat on the other.

And if it's definitely not a motorcycle rack, that means that there remains at least one motorcycle-carrying rig we have NOT yet seen, and maybe more.

Also, the photos we are seeing of the "low-rider" rig don't prove it's been used operationally, but all the photos together show that it's been mounted on at least 3 different airframes.

Whatever it is, it's interesting....:-)

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[11bee]

That report is available on DTIC. I had gone to DTIC years ago to get it in hardcopy but the day I went there they couldn't dig it out. Now it's available as a PDF file.

See http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a218253.pdf

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

Interesting. Especially Appendix F - "Classified Configurations", which surprisingly enough - is classified.

[FM-Whip]

Interesting. Especially Appendix F - "Classified Configurations", which surprisingly enough - is classified.

And the "low-rider" rig is not in the classified appendix....

John Hairell (tpn18@yahoo.com)

[Loach Driver]

I think this is an MH-6H. This image appears on the cover of the book written by Kurt Muse, the man rescued by the 160th and Delta from the Modelo Prison in 1989 in Panama.

It looks like the low-rider is only suitable for short flights. Trying to crouch down on that platform for any length of time would get uncomfortable really quickly.

LD.