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Ordnance help w/ early Paveway 500lb.


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Can someone educate me on whether this item (linked below) I see previewed on MM be a viable GBU-12 choice for a Vietnam era Phantom, as opposed to what is in the 48th scale Hasegawa weapons set? What are the external differences between a Paveway I and later editions? Were these weapons even used by F-4s during the war? Thank you!

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scott/detailsets/wingman/wmf48009.htm

Edited by metroman
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Can someone educate me on whether this item (linked below) I see previewed on MM be a better GBU-12 choice for a Vietnam era Phantom, as opposed to what is in the Hasegawa weapons set? What are the external differences between a Paveway I and later editions? Were these weapons used my USN as well as USAF Phantoms during the war? Thank you!

http://www.modelingmadness.com/scott/detailsets/wingman/wmf48009.htm

The first question is what Hasegawa set You have ? Second thing USN and USMC PHANTOM's never use any LGB in Vietnam Third thing early GBU-10/12 have solid tail fins, front fins are bigger, so its main difrence between early and latest variants of GBU

Edited by mirage3
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A-6A's from VA-45 dropped LGB's over SEA with the aid of the Pave Knife pod.

HTH,

Andre

Yes u're right, I should write "USN/USMC Phantom never use" sorry my mistake.

Edited by mirage3
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VA-164 used Paveway I bombs from its A-4F jets in 1972, with designation provided by a TA-4F back-seater via a hand-held laser designator. I believe that VF-31 may have used 500-lb LGB from its F-4Js in the same time frame, as well.

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VA-164 used Paveway I bombs from its A-4F jets in 1972, with designation provided by a TA-4F back-seater via a hand-held laser designator. I believe that VF-31 may have used 500-lb LGB from its F-4Js in the same time frame, as well.

Any pics ? Long time ago I try to find something about USN Phantoms and LGB with no lucky at all <_< (of course Vietnam era jet :rolleyes: )

Edited by mirage3
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First off, you asked if the Winman 48009 Mk 82 LGBs are any good. I don’t have them, but from the photo in the link provided, they look pretty nice. They represent the low-speed variant of the bomb and will be particularly useful for use with models of the B-57G. The 1:48 Hasegawa Mk 82 LGBs represent the high-speed variant, more appropriate for F-4s. Based on some of the responses, a brief tutorial on USN/USMC LGB use in SEA seems called for. :)/>

The USAF established the Precision Avionics Vectoring Equipment (PAVE) Way task force in July 1967 to demonstrate the feasibility of using guidance controls on individual bombs. The following month development of laser, electro optical, and infrared guidance systems were separated into different programs, becoming PAVE Ways I, II, and III, respectively. It wasn’t until after the Vietnam War that Texas Instruments co-opted the name to describe the improved Paveway II, most easily identified by ‘pop-out’ wings.

The Mk 82 LGB seems to have been developed initially for use with the B-57G. It was first dropped in March 1970 at Eglin AFB. About 350 Mk 82 LGB guidance kits were produced in 1970, 4,725 in 1971, and 7,600 in 1972. In April 1972 the Mk 84, M118, and Mk 82 LGB guidance kits were modified with break-off fins and wing extensions (which the Winman kit depicts). Initially, the original (short wing) versions were known as ‘High Speed’ and the later (long wing) versions as ‘Slow Speed’. Eventually, the newer configuration gained favor in all types of deliveries and the favored terminology became ‘Short Wing’ and ‘Long Wing’. By the 1980s, only the use of Long Wing weapons was recommended.

Navy Use of PAVE Way I LGBs

No authorization for USN/USMC use of LGBs existed before a formal request for one was made in September 1971. Even so, shore-based Marine A-4s and A-6s had been dropped some Mk 84 and Mk 82 LGBs operationally before that. In November 1971, after tests a Patuxent River and China Lake, Navy and Marine A-4, A-6, A-7, and F-4s were all authorized to conduct carrier and shore-based operations with Mk 82 and Mk 84 LGBs. A modification of the Mk 82 LGB guidance kit was made to create a Mk 83 LGB, which was authorized for fleet use in August 1972. (Mk 82 and 83 LGBs were authorized with the AV-8A in September 1973.) During Vietnam, Navy LGBs were fitted with the notoriously unreliable Mk 344 tail fuze, which caused many to fail to detonate.

Between January 1967 and April 1973, the Navy dropped 1,296 LGBs (and the Marines 89), just five percent of all LGBs dropped. This total included 372 Mk 83 LGBs. (The Navy retained the ‘warhead LGB’ system as its official designation system for all PAVE Way I bombs, not adopting GBU nomenclature until it acquired PAVE Way II LGBs. Hence, its PAVE Way I Mk 83 LGB never received a GBU designation.)

During January 1971, Marine A-4Es and A-6As carrying LGB s flew Steel Tiger missions in southern Laos in cooperation with the USAF’s PAVE Light equipped F-4Ds of the 433rd TFS, 8th TFW (FG). The F-4D controlled the strike, illuminating the target with its laser beam, which the Marine aircraft would attack with Mk 82 LGBs. Additionally, four VMA-311 “Tomcats” A-4Es modified with laser detectors delivered LGBs designated by ground-based Light Weight Lasers (LWL), handheld rectangular boxes, measuring 4.5 x 4.5 x 10 inches, which was aimed like a box camera. Eventually, LWLs were installed in aircraft. As with the Air Force’s PAVE Light, one aircraft designated the target with the LWL while other dropped the LGBs. Use of LWL was restricted to relatively low threat areas and required escort aircraft to provide ‘look-out’ for SAM and AAA threats. Between June 1972 and January 1973, 385 LGBs were expended using six LWLs.

The following deployments are known to have employed carrier-based LGB designation systems:

During its 7 January to 3 October 1972, 8 May 1973 to 8 January 1974, and 18 March to 20 October 1975 cruises on CVA/CV-19, the USS Hancock, CVW-21 conducted LGB operations. During these cruises, the VA-164 ‘Ghost Riders’ deployed with two-seat TA-4Fs (ideal for employing the LWL) in addition to their normal compliment of single-seat A-4Fs. Photographs exist of VA-164 A-4Fs loaded with Mk 82 LGBs on the outboard wing stations and Mk 83 LGBs on the inboards, with an AERO 1 centerline fuel tank.

During its 17 February to 28 November 1972 cruise on CVA-63, the USS Kitty Hawk, CVW-11 conducted LGB operations. The VF-213 ‘Black Lions’ and VF-114 ‘Aardvarks’, flying F-4Js, at first illuminated targets for A-7Es from VA-192 ‘Golden Dragons’ and VA-195 ‘Dam Busters’. In the end, CVW-11 came to prefer a pair of F-4Js, with the bomber configured with two Mk 82 LGBs, while the illuminator carried four Mk 82 LDGP bombs. For the first five line periods, the F-4Js were configured with a centerline tank, two AIM-7E-2s on the aft fuselage stations, empty outboard stations and up to four AIM-9Gs on the inboard stations along with TER-mounted bombs. During the final two line periods, VF-114 moved the TERs to the outboard pylons. This configuration required the carriage of at least one AIM-7 in a forward fuselage station (usually on the left side). The wing dropped 89 Mk 82, 27 Mk 83, and 46 Mk 84 LGBs during this cruise.

During its 11 April 1972 to 13 February 1973 cruise on CVA-60, the USS Saratoga, CVW-3 began conducting LGB operations following their first line period. During a late-June in-port period at Cubic Bay, Philippines, experienced crews from CVW-21’s VA-164 trained a single crew from each F-4J squadron (VF-31 ‘Tomcatters’ and VF-103 ‘Sluggers’) on the single available LWL. Midway through the next line period, another LWL became available. The F-4Js acted ‘strictly as illuminators’ with the LGBs being delivered by A-7As from the VA-37 ‘Bulls’ and VA-105 ‘Gunslingers’. In all, CVW-3 delivered 26 Mk 82, 34 Mk 83, and 32 Mk 84 LGBs.

During its 5 June 1972 to 24 March 1973 cruise on the CVA-66, the USS America, CVW-8 conducted LGB operations. Three A-6Cs were assigned to the VA-35 ‘Black Panthers’, fitted with Trails and Roads Interdiction, Multi-sensor (TRIM). TRIM, which included a laser designation capability did not work well. The A-6Cs were apparently used only as illuminators and only successfully on 5 and 9 November 1972, delivering only 13 Mk 82 LGBs.

During its 12 September 1972 to 12 June 1973 cruise on the CVAN-65, the USS Enterprise, CVW-14 conducted LGB operations. LWL is known to have been used by A-6As of the VA-196 ‘Main Battery’, which would seem to make this the only Intruder unit to have used this system. It is not known what part the wing’s other squadrons played in LGB operations or how many LGBs were dropped.

During its 16 November 1972 to 22 June 1973 cruise on the CVA-61, the USS Ranger, CVW-2 conducted LGB operations. Three VA-145 ‘Swordsmen’A-6As carried PAVE Knife pods: NE 503 (155711), NE 504 (155714), and NE 505 (155715). The PAVE Knife pod was always carried on the centerline. Weapon configurations included Mk 84 LGBs on outboard pylons with fuel tanks on inboards, and Mk 83 LGBs on the inboard pylons and MER-mounted Mk 82 CFAs on the outboards. A total of 33 Mk 83 and 21 Mk 84 LGBs were delivered against targets in southern North Vietnam by the A-6As along with A-7Es of the VA-113 ‘Stingers’ and VA-25 ‘Fist of the Fleet’.

Edited by mrvark
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So only VF-114 ‘Aardvarks’ and VF-213 ‘Black Lions’ use LGB in Vietnam ? I'd like see photo :woot.gif: One photo worth more than 1000 words...

p.s.That why i like this forum there are a lot o peoples here who knows a lot more from you. Thanks !

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By 'Low Speed' does that in anyway imply the launching aircraft being in a particular weapon release/envelope, or is that more a description of the weapons flight characteristics?

Probably the best way to think about this is the speed of the bomb approaching its target. B-57Gs would deliver their Mk 82 LGBs from level flight, while F-4s in SEA dropped them from a dive, which gave the bomb a lot more energy, allowing it to be successfully guided with smaller flying surfaces. I actually dropped a pair PAVE Way I GBU-12s from an F-111F while stationed at RAF Lakenheath in the early 1980s and they were fitted with the long wings (slow speed). The -111 was accused of a lot of things, but slow was never one of them. :)/> Both bombs were 'no-guides' by the way--apparently the old power supplies failed. :(/> F-111Fs delivered LGBs using a toss maneuver that (like the B-57G) reduced bomb energy approaching the target when compared to a diving delivery.

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That's a fantastic report of Navy use of LGBs Mr. Vark!

Do you know of any place where pictures of the aircraft involved can be found?

Also, now that we are at it, do you happen to have a simmilar report of the LGBs the USAF dropped during the Vietnam war?

Many thanks,

Jorge.

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