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11bee

Bf-109 Reference Question

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The dark colors, Dark Green and Brown Violet seems to have been RLM 81 while the Bright Green is RLM 82.

It's unfortunate that the Dark Green RML 83 THEORY has been accepted as the truth for the last 20 years or so. There was never any proof for that. Off course there'll be confusion when "the truth" turns out to not be true after all. The few surviving factory drawings all have RLM 81/82 schemes written on them, never 83. So in that respect it would also make sense that RLM 81 could be either Dark Green or Brown Violet.

Still, all is free to call these colors whatever they want, personally I try to stick with the names rather than the numbers a I'm not sure we still understand the system.

then...how to interpret camouflage on early Fw190D and some Bf109G-10/K-4(e.g. a K-4 from JG53) which consists 2 upper colours dark green and violet grey?

The greyish colour is RLM75,that's no controversy.In older source,th dark green is RLM83(on Kagero's Fw190 vol.4,sme colour profiles note the colour is 82/75)A friend's opinion is"RLM83 replaced RLM74",but according to new research,would we call this scheme 81/75?or it's exactly 82/75 variation?

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That set of colorcards only had two cards stamped, RLM 76 and 82. The other two were a very dark brown and an olive green but the cards were unmarked. So in other words, the color numbers were were reveresed by identifying RLM 82 as Bright Green and nothing more. I actually have samples of those cards at the moment, lent to me by Dave Brown, and they are very close to the samples in Ken Merricks books.

11bee: Both colors started out as greens and according to the documents it was quite early in the development that the brown tinted versions were tried too. When these colors were first developed the Luftwaffe was fighting in every sort of environment possible in Europe so it seems quite natural that they'd try both greens and browns. Maybe it was just during the testing phase that several shades were tried and that the intent was to settle for two, i.e. RLM 81 Brown Violet and RLM 82 Bright Green?

An intersting detail is that the green versions of both 81 and 82 are very consistent. There's five or six samples of each in Ken Merricks Monogram book and they're all very very close. The five or so browns all differ from each other. Same goes for FS referces taken from several wrecks by various authors, the dark green seems to always be identified as FS 34083 while the Brown Violets differ quite a lot. I'm not sure what to make of that but one does wonder whether the green shades were regulated while the brown tinting was not.

Regarding RLM 83, there's reports and eyewitness accounts of dark blue JU88's in the MTO which might or might not have been examples of RLM 83.

/Anders

I read an article on hyperscale about 2 months ago.The author researched on RLM73,made a conclusion that RLM73 is dark blue,with a Ju88 model

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Hi schonert

According to The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora by Jerry Crandall the early Sorau built Doras were painted Gray-Violet and Dark Green over Light Blue. Based on the new evidence that has come to light recently this scheme would be RLM 75/RLM 81/RLM 76 if I am not mistaken.

Horrido!

Leo

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That's right Leo, but as agreed earlier, it's a dark green / olive green color regardless.

It would mean that the fighter colors went through the same transition period as the bombers where one of the early colors 74/75 would be applied in conjunction with 81/82.

One must wonder how common it was though, I've read a lot of Crashed enemy aircraft reports and up to and including operation Bodenplatte and beyond, the camouflage colors described are greys more than nine times out of ten.

I can only recall one single description of grey and green combined (a WNF built G-14) the rest are greys with a few mentions of brown and green.

It's perhaps possible though that green rlm 81 applied thinly over 75 didn't differ enough from 74 to be worth noticing.

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I read an article on hyperscale about 2 months ago.The author researched on RLM73,made a conclusion that RLM73 is dark blue,with a Ju88 model

Now this really adds confusion, RLM73 already being know as a maritime camoflage color. The discussion seems to be about RLM83, not 73. Has someone transposed the wrong RLM number? These things do happen. For myself, let the purists argue it out, the paint companies, except of course MM, have gone with 83 as a dark green, so for my purposes, I intend to leave it that way, until there's a major change

in what paint makers are currently doing.

because of the original conhusion over 82 and 83, I now refer to them as RLM82, bright Green, and RLM83, Dark Green. When discussing 84, I always refer to it as a made up RLM number to describe a color that was there, but never identified. So fellas, do have a good time sorting this all out, I know there are those dedicated folks that enjoy this type of a puzzle, but I have models to build.

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Michael Uhllmann has identified from Luftwaffe records a colour RLM 83 Blue, which is believed to refer to the blue colour found on Ju88s in Italy in 1944. (The reference to 73 above is probably a typing error, influenced by the maritime use of RLM 83.) Taken at face value, this suggests that there was no RLM 83 Dark Green and that all the Dark Green/Brown Violet descriptions are of different attempts at RLM 81. However, this is contradicted by Ken Merrick's work with German paint manufacturers, who have produced 83 Dark Green to the original recipes in their archives. So presumably RLM 83 Blue was not standardised and the number re-used for a different colour altogether, which would be unusual if not indeed unique.

I don't think there is any suggestion that 83 Blue was used as a late-war fighter colour.

Edited by agboak

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I better re-read the book before commenting in depth but Merricks theory was that 81, 82 and 83 were re-issues of 61, 62 and 64 so the recipes could be based on those colors or the RAL equivalents.

The only swatch I know of that shows the debated dark green was actually unmarked but was believed to be 83 given the theories of the time.

The only can of RLM 81 ever found contained dark green color so there is some proof that green 81 existed.

So with that in mind combined with the fact that factory blue prints make several references to 81 but none to 83 I think Ullmann is right. Merrick did an outstanding job with the references he had at hand, now something new has turned up and stirred the pot once more. :)

/Anders

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Michael Uhllmann has identified from Luftwaffe records a colour RLM 83 Blue, which is believed to refer to the blue colour found on Ju88s in Italy in 1944. (The reference to 73 above is probably a typing error, influenced by the maritime use of RLM 83.) Taken at face value, this suggests that there was no RLM 83 Dark Green and that all the Dark Green/Brown Violet descriptions are of different attempts at RLM 81. However, this is contradicted by Ken Merrick's work with German paint manufacturers, who have produced 83 Dark Green to the original recipes in their archives. So presumably RLM 83 Blue was not standardised and the number re-used for a different colour altogether, which would be unusual if not indeed unique.

I don't think there is any suggestion that 83 Blue was used as a late-war fighter colour.

sorry, there were something wrong in my memory...I found the arhttp://www.clubhyper.com/reference/rlm83darkbluemu_1.htm

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Hi schonert

According to The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 Dora by Jerry Crandall the early Sorau built Doras were painted Gray-Violet and Dark Green over Light Blue. Based on the new evidence that has come to light recently this scheme would be RLM 75/RLM 81/RLM 76 if I am not mistaken.

Horrido!

Leo

thanks a lot

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Just went on Amazon, figured I'd treat myself to this book. It's listed at $299!! Want to loan me your copy? :)/>

Wow! I think I paid about $35 for it. Books get crazy expensive when they go out of print.

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Wow! I think I paid about $35 for it. Books get crazy expensive when they go out of print.

Wanna double your money? I'll give you $70!

How's that Erla review coming along? You have pretty much set the standard for a comprehensive review. Waiting patiently for your feedback on the new Revell kit. :)

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Wanna double your money? I'll give you $70!

How's that Erla review coming along? You have pretty much set the standard for a comprehensive review. Waiting patiently for your feedback on the new Revell kit. :)/>

The Erla G-10 review is behind schedule! Hopefully a couple more weeks and we'll have it up.

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