Kitwarning.. Kittyhawk Mig-25 Foxbat

[Inquisitor]

any of you ever tried to build a resin "garage kit" modeling skills help, I have the kit, I haven't tried to build it, maybe i never ail, Im not sure is the negativity deserved or not?

The case is you set a certain level of expectation & quality coming from different products.

If you buy a 70's kit for $20-30 you'd expect it to be not accurate and have fit issues. Same for some "garage kit". You don't expect major problems for a brand new CAD designed kit that sells for $70-80.

The same would be applied if you buy a new car. You'd expect plasticky interiors, low quality upholstery, rough engine and creaking everywhere after a short while buying some $10,000 car. But if you paid $50,000 for a BMW of course you'd expect it to be of a higher standard and almost perfectly smooth and functional for a long while.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Inquisitor

[Check Six]

The case is you set a certain level of expectation & quality coming from different products.

If you buy a 70's kit for $20-30 you'd expect it to be not accurate and have fit issues. Same for some "garage kit". You don't expect major problems for a brand new CAD designed kit that sells for $70-80.

The same would be applied if you buy a new car. You'd expect plasticky interiors, low quality upholstery, rough engine and creaking everywhere after a short while buying some $10,000 car. But if you paid $50,000 for a BMW of course you'd expect it to be of a higher standard and almost perfectly smooth and functional for a long while.

Totally, 100% agree .

That applies to all kit manufacturers.

[Tiger27]

Maybe Tiger27 (et al) should spend less time on the forums and improve the building skills. A true master overcomes all obstacles. :)/>/>

Why thank you.. what a nice thing to say you.. (insert not polite nickname derived from what just came outta my dogs behind..) .. if we all did that how many forums would still be up ?

I've been modeling since I was 8 so, that's 30 years on the bench, and very seldom do I complain about a kit, but this one I felt needed some heat..

I never said anything about not mastering or overcoming the obstacles. the challange is there and I've got the damn thing together, however these are issues I'd expect from a limited run half product. Not a brand spanking new hightech presition molded kit.

Now run along before I really get pissed..

Edited March 11, 2014 by Tiger27

[Laurent]

Perhaps the tooling wasn't tweeked enough ? Or the injection parameters has some dispersion ?

[Stratospheremodels]

Or perhaps they did try to force the sprues inside a box that barely fits (sorry, haven't seen the size of the box in relation to the size of the sprues) while they were still hot.

[DarkKnight]

the scalespot article was pretty informative, I agree that a kit this expensive should be perfect, I'm not happy about the need for modifications to create an accurate replica, but I am happy for a halfway decent kit, to me the correction of errors is most stressful part of modeling, its even more upsetting when its caused by lack of research by model producers, I wish they would all come on here and show us the CAD drawings so the "nitpickers" can put in their .02 so I don't have to do more work later on, but its better than nothing

[Check Six]

Maybe Tiger27 (et al) should spend less time on the forums and improve the building skills. A true master overcomes all obstacles.

"You can attract more with honey than you can with vinegar."

You, Tim, are using vinegar by the gallons with your post .

[designfriemel]

You're kidding right! When I spend close to $100 AUD to get a newly tooled 1/48 kit, designed with CAD etc, I expect it to at least fit well. If I buy a Hasegawa or a Tamiya kit for that price, the thing builds beautifully. Yes there is some filler involved but not to the extent that you want to throw the kit against a wall. I'm not a great modeller, but I can put a kit together well enough to get some decent compliments on the forums and from my friends. I've built Revell 1/48 for half the price of the KH and they've been much more enjoyable kits to build.

This isn't 1970's Revell land anymore. Newly tooled kits should be, for me at least, accurate, relatively easy to build, and there should be almost zero fit issues thanks to CAD/CAM etc. If they're not, then hey would be priced accordingly. You blaming the OP and citing "lack of modeller skills" is laughable.

This is a typical example of a very common misconception about the new digital tools used in the design process. I run into this on a regular basis.

See, only because you draw a technical or artistic drawing on the computer, digitally, and not with a pencil on paper, it does not mean - by ANY STANDARD - that the digital drawing is better in any way. it is just digital.

In other words: only because airplanes, washing machines OR INJECTION MOULDS are designed on a computer, it does not mean they are better. The design is (still) "thinking made visual" as Saul Bass once said.

Trust me, as a Designer, I'd be the first putting the blame on the digital process if something goes wrong rather than myself ... If that made any sense or claim truth.

People also think that the design process itself becomes easier with new digital tools - another misconception which is just simply false. "But doesn't the computer do that automatically?" :rolleyes:/>

[Crazy Snap Captain]

This is a typical example of a very common misconception about the new digital tools used in the design process. I run into this on a regular basis.

See, only because you draw a technical or artistic drawing on the computer, digitally, and not with a pencil on paper, it does not mean - by ANY STANDARD - that the digital drawing is better in any way. it is just digital.

In other words: only because airplanes, washing machines OR INJECTION MOULDS are designed on a computer, it does not mean they are better. The design is (still) "thinking made visual" as Saul Bass once said.

Trust me, as a Designer, I'd be the first putting the blame on the digital process if something goes wrong rather than myself ... If that made any sense or claim truth.

People also think that the design process itself becomes easier with new digital tools - another misconception which is just simply false. "But doesn't the computer do that automatically?" :rolleyes:/>/>

I appreciate that. So why do most Tamiya and Hasegaawa kits go togther so well? Is it some other stage of the production process that companies like KH are falling down?

[Berkut]

I appreciate that. So why do most Tamiya and Hasegaawa kits go togther so well? Is it some other stage of the production process that companies like KH are falling down?

Tamiya kits fitted well before they design them in CAD. Just like it is possible to design a kit in CAD that does not fit will.

[Inquisitor]

This is a typical example of a very common misconception about the new digital tools used in the design process. I run into this on a regular basis.

See, only because you draw a technical or artistic drawing on the computer, digitally, and not with a pencil on paper, it does not mean - by ANY STANDARD - that the digital drawing is better in any way. it is just digital.

In other words: only because airplanes, washing machines OR INJECTION MOULDS are designed on a computer, it does not mean they are better. The design is (still) "thinking made visual" as Saul Bass once said.

Trust me, as a Designer, I'd be the first putting the blame on the digital process if something goes wrong rather than myself ... If that made any sense or claim truth.

People also think that the design process itself becomes easier with new digital tools - another misconception which is just simply false. "But doesn't the computer do that automatically?" />

Tamiya kits fitted well before they design them in CAD. Just like it is possible to design a kit in CAD that does not fit will.

But if you compare this kit to others produced by KH it had the most amount of failures in different steps of the process from design to distribution.

Starting with the lack of research and some dubious design choices as pointed out in the big old thread, which would have been solved or fixed on the CADs. A couple of them were fixed after the test shots which wouldn't be ideal, but most were ignored. Now the warped fuselage has been speculated to be either from problems in the molding process which should have been troubleshooted or they really have a lack of Quality Control. The other explanation is the packaging which like their other releases they try to clam all the sprues pretty tightly in a smallest box they can use.

And finally they trying to charge premium prices for a subpar product.

If this was school, KH is the kind of student that only works or study enough for a passing grade only.

Edited March 13, 2014 by Inquisitor

[Berkut]

A couple of them were fixed after the test shots which wouldn't be ideal, but most were ignored.

I have asked a few times but i haven't seen a clear answer yet; what was actually fixed on the kit prior to the release? I am only aware of the nosecone.

[Jennings]

But if you compare this kit to others produced by KH it had the most amount of failures in different steps of the process from design to distribution.

Starting with the lack of research and some dubious design choices as pointed out in the big old thread, which would have been solved or fixed on the CADs. A couple of them were fixed after the test shots which wouldn't be ideal, but most were ignored. Now the warped fuselage has been speculated to be either from problems in the molding process which should have been troubleshooted or they really have a lack of Quality Control. The other explanation is the packaging which like their other releases they try to clam all the sprues pretty tightly in a smallest box they can use.

And finally they trying to charge premium prices for a subpar product.

If this was school, KH is the kind of student that only works or study enough for a passing grade only.

Well said. I call it spectacular mediocrity.

[pookie]

I appreciate that. So why do most Tamiya and Hasegaawa kits go togther so well? Is it some other stage of the production process that companies like KH are falling down?

If you had the chance to visit Japan and China and understand the two cultures, you would understand perfeclty.

[designfriemel]

But if you compare this kit to others produced by KH it had the most amount of failures in different steps of the process from design to distribution.

Starting with the lack of research and some dubious design choices as pointed out in the big old thread, which would have been solved or fixed on the CADs. A couple of them were fixed after the test shots which wouldn't be ideal, but most were ignored. Now the warped fuselage has been speculated to be either from problems in the molding process which should have been troubleshooted or they really have a lack of Quality Control. The other explanation is the packaging which like their other releases they try to clam all the sprues pretty tightly in a smallest box they can use.

And finally they trying to charge premium prices for a subpar product.

If this was school, KH is the kind of student that only works or study enough for a passing grade only.

May I make a correction to one of your points and see if you agree:

"...,which could have been solved or fixed on the CADs." Never take anything for granted that is in fact not! In this case this also means it could have been done better regardless of a digital or analog process.

Well argued. Especially your last line. let me point you to another type of student:

The kind that works or studies very hard - giving his best - but still hardly passes or fails. Unfortunately.

Now let me further point out three major aspects that really stand out in this context - from your lines:

dubious choices > doubt

were ignored > ignorance

has been speculated > speculation

I think most people have experienced this in an economic labor environment in some or the other way.

Why are dubious choices made? Because someone, regardless of being right or wrong, decided there is no time to be certain.

Time-pressure

Why are concerns typically by the technicians, the specialists, being ignored? Because there is economic pressure, wether arisen from inside or put on from the outside.

(and usually.. if technician brings up a concern, it is hardly a minor.)

"I don't care. Just get it done!"

Why would you speculate in a, mainly, technical process, where hard concrete figures are absolutely crucial for success. Well, for the very same reasons.

I have learned that if you want a successful design process with a good product in the end you have to eliminate all of those terms:

Doubt? Do what is necessary to, what was doubt, is now certainty.

Ignorance? Never ignore anything that might endanger the quality of your design. (i.e. Material, Process)

Speculation? You must not speculate in Design, ever.

But yet all those bad things happen despite good intentions simply due to economic (&time) pressure.

If you ask me how this happened I can only speculate :whistle:/>

Maybe an old experienced lead-technician, who was crucial for manufacturing the mould, left the company or died. (It is my experience that this is the most common reason for a decline in quality and design.)

Maybe lack of funds, economic pressure, forced them to prepone the release, accepting major flaws in design & quality for the sake of saving the entire enterprise of manufacturing decent kits.

I think we all agree that we would not mind KH taking more time to finish this kit and, what i wanted to make clear, all those mistakes were made regardless of CAD/CAM, i.e. digital process.

Edited March 14, 2014 by designfriemel

[Check Six]

The CAD/CAM is only as good as what the designer puts into it.

It's all dependent on the human element.

Like a fighter a/c. The pilot makes the fighter for the most part, not the other way around.

Would you say so, Designfriemel?

[ya-gabor]

I have asked a few times but i haven't seen a clear answer yet; what was actually fixed on the kit prior to the release? I am only aware of the nosecone.

Hi Berkut,

The flat top windscreen and canopy top was the only thing changed on the kit. It was the smallest sprue, the cheapest solution to one of the problems and they could still say that "we have have listened to comments and made changes". They did not make any alterations (based on the contemporary photos) to the rest of sprues.

The problem with the warped parts is:

- packaging

- design: wall thickness of the parts is too thin.

- it could be also injection moulding technology problem, that is parts only partly cooled removed from the machine.

Best regards

Gabor

[Laurent]

But yet all those bad things happen despite good intentions simply due to economic (&time) pressure.

Not only. I think there's ego too. Because China's fast growth (competition between companies), because of single child policy (competition between individuals: kids are raised with a competition spirit in mind... I knew a young woman whos parents forced her to learn playing the accordion and she hated it), Chinese designers are competing between each other and each design is their chef-d'oeuvre. They're often reluctant to accept critique from people, even from their boss (so they resign and move to another company).

Designing the CAD model is just a link in the model kit producing chain. The CAD model can be as accurate as possible, if there are issues with the tooling or if the PS isn't let to cool down enough after injection for example, the kit will have problems. A chain where a link is in titanium while another is in lead is no good. A good model kit is a kit where each link of the chain (accuracy, detailing, fit, instruction sheet is clear enough, pricing, etc) are about the same strength.

Edited March 14, 2014 by Laurent

[delide]

This is a typical example of a very common misconception about the new digital tools used in the design process. I run into this on a regular basis.

See, only because you draw a technical or artistic drawing on the computer, digitally, and not with a pencil on paper, it does not mean - by ANY STANDARD - that the digital drawing is better in any way. it is just digital.

In other words: only because airplanes, washing machines OR INJECTION MOULDS are designed on a computer, it does not mean they are better. The design is (still) "thinking made visual" as Saul Bass once said.

Trust me, as a Designer, I'd be the first putting the blame on the digital process if something goes wrong rather than myself ... If that made any sense or claim truth.

People also think that the design process itself becomes easier with new digital tools - another misconception which is just simply false. "But doesn't the computer do that automatically?" :rolleyes:/>/>

I'm no designer, but I believe with digital tools it's so much easier to archive perfect symmetry, which is important and big advantage for tooling of aircraft kits, as most aircraft has symmetrical shape. I'm building the Tamiya space shuttle for example, tooled in 1979 I believe, while the overall shape looks very good to me, regarding symmetry I have say it's a mess, you can see even with naked eyes that the two engine nacelles do not have the same length, the fuselage cross section after the cockpit also far from symmetrical(the panel/part for the cockpit bulkhead won't remotely fit if you turn it around), probably as a result of that, the leading edge of the strakes have difference angles to fuselage when viewing from the front... So I do believe the design process itself becomes easier with digital tools, at least in certain aspects.

[delide]

Not only. I think there's ego too. Because China's fast growth (competition between companies), because of single child policy (competition between individuals: kids are raised with a competition spirit in mind... I knew a young woman whos parents forced her to learn playing the accordion and she hated it), Chinese designers are competing between each other and each design is their chef-d'oeuvre. They're often reluctant to accept critique from people, even from their boss (so they resign and move to another company).

It's very common in China that employees go start their own company and become competitors of their former employer. Some would take intellectual properties with them, it's a problem for some German companies for example, if they open a production facility in China, soon they would find new companies around the block, producing similar products. It's a problem for innovative Chinese companies as well... But of course I'm not accusing KH or anyone of anything, what I'm trying to say is that, it's a country with huge economic inequality, there are many rich people around, I guess it motivates the people/employees, why let your boss earn all the money from your work, when you could earn it for yourself and become as rich as him? It's not a about competition between individuals, but rather comparison I'd day.

By the way, yes, there is indeed mentality differences. Let me put it this way, detail attention, precision, perfection... such things are probably more difficult concepts for Chinese to understand than the Japanese or Germans for example.

[LoganTLR]

By the way, yes, there is indeed mentality differences. Let me put it this way, detail attention, precision, perfection... such things are probably more difficult concepts for Chinese to understand than the Japanese or Germans for example.

WOW

Simply WOW ..

This is supposed to be a thread about the KH MiG-25 and you turn it into a racist bigoted one. What is this 1930 Berlin??

People like you make me wonder why I waste time here any more.

Back on to the topic at hand.... In the end, it is up to the buyer whether or not they want to: build it out of the box; make the corrections (either themselves or AM; or, simply not to buy it.

Tom

[delide]

WOW

Simply WOW ..

This is supposed to be a thread about the KH MiG-25 and you turn it into a racist bigoted one. What is this 1930 Berlin??

People like you make me wonder why I waste time here any more.

Back on to the topic at hand.... In the end, it is up to the buyer whether or not they want to: build it out of the box; make the corrections (either themselves or AM; or, simply not to buy it.

Tom

wait, how ist that Racism, aren't Japanese and Chinese all Asian people anyway...

Anyways. I do like to go off topic, I guess you know me now, so it's all up to you to ignore my post, I'd very welcome that. I'm not around here very often anyway, so please don't let me stop you to visit the forum.

[DarkKnight]

wait, how ist that Racism, aren't Japanese and Chinese all Asian people anyway...

Anyways. I do like to go off topic, I guess you know me now, so it's all up to you to ignore my post, I'd very welcome that. I'm not around here very often anyway, so please don't let me stop you to visit the forum.

its not racism its the truth from a cultural observation, Lived there and maybe I'm asian, I agree with you completely delide, Germans and Japanese are more concerned with precision than Chinese companies. Typical of canadians looking to be offended or PC, do Canadians even put swastikas on their model planes?, I'm grateful for a Mig 25 better than the old revell, i was impressed they promised to make changes to address inaccuracies, but disappointed in the end result, but still bought the kit, will modify it or use it when in inevitably break parts on the updated version

Edited March 15, 2014 by DarkKnight