Peter Browne Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 (edited) Well, this looks awesome. I am concerned though about the tubular structure and being strong enough to support the weight. Also I imagine that this structure would be quite fragile and susceptable to warping over time if 3D printed in resin or any type of plastic. Have you considered making the structure from metal hobby rod or tubing, e.g. brass or aluminium? Aluminium would not need any painting either and could be joined with an epoxy for metal (Araldite comes to mind). On the other hand, brass would be a lot stronger and could easily be soldered which would be a lot neater and very strong. Especially if you have access to a resistance soldering unit, though the treasury might object as they are quite expensive, but really are the bees knees... (why someone didn't use this as nose art on a B-25 is beyond me...) Some discussion here on joining hobby scale metal tubing. Then you could just 3D print the other components, engine and other details? This way you could make the model quite big and save on resin at the same time. You could use Solidworks to produce the drawings for the structural layout... Edited June 11, 2020 by Peter Browne Quote Link to post Share on other sites
habu2 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 How about 3-D printing an alignment template to facilitate building the trusswork from rod/tubing? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 2 hours ago, Peter Browne said: Well, this looks awesome. I am concerned though about the tubular structure and being strong enough to support the weight. Also I imagine that this structure would be quite fragile and susceptable to warping over time if 3D printed in resin or any type of plastic. Have you considered making the structure from metal hobby rod or tubing, e.g. brass or aluminium? Aluminium would not need any painting either and could be joined with an epoxy for metal (Araldite comes to mind). On the other hand, brass would be a lot stronger and could easily be soldered which would be a lot neater and very strong. Especially if you have access to a resistance soldering unit, though the treasury might object as they are quite expensive, but really are the bees knees... (why someone didn't use this as nose art on a B-25 is beyond me...) Some discussion here on joining hobby scale metal tubing. Then you could just 3D print the other components, engine and other details? This way you could make the model quite big and save on resin at the same time. You could use Solidworks to produce the drawings for the structural layout... Resin once cured is strong enough. there is high tensile resin available but I think depending on scale a normal resin would handle it. Another option might be print the truss hollow and put rod through negating the need to solder brass rod? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 Hey Joe, what do you think about this smart idea by ALBION ALLOYS by using brass pipes and these tiny PE connectors? You look here ... I'll use it for the Access Arms of the FSS Tower. I think that should work well with your "grasshopper" too. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted June 11, 2020 Share Posted June 11, 2020 I tend to agree that for this particular vehicle metal tubing is the way to go for the bulk of the structure. Not just because of strength, I think the 3D printed resin is plenty strong enough, but just the cost, time, and concern of keeping them perfectly straight. Perhaps model all of the corner joints and 3D print those with a male/female socket connection for each tube. That's my opinion anyway. I also like the idea of a 3D printed assembly jig. This thing looks pretty spidery and not easy to get perfectly aligned. A good solid base to build on looks key. Keep up the great work and keep us posted. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted April 15, 2021 Author Share Posted April 15, 2021 (edited) On 6/10/2020 at 9:12 PM, Peter Browne said: ..Have you considered making the structure from metal hobby rod or tubing, e.g. brass or aluminium? Hi Peter, thanks, yes metal tubes might work. On 6/10/2020 at 11:44 PM, Aussie-Pete said: Another option might be print the truss hollow and put rod through negating the need to solder brass rod? Good idea too! On 6/10/2020 at 11:00 PM, habu2 said: How about 3-D printing an alignment template to facilitate building the trusswork from rod/tubing? Yes, you're right. Fashioning a jig will be necessary. On 6/11/2020 at 4:34 AM, spaceman said: what do you think about this smart idea by ALBION ALLOYS by using brass pipes and these tiny PE connectors? Nice find, will have a look. On 6/11/2020 at 7:10 AM, niart17 said: Perhaps model all of the corner joints and 3D print those with a male/female socket connection for each tube. Great idea, thanks Bill! I really need to give it a whirl. Already have the resin, the gloves, IPA, a pair of eye protectors, springtime temperatures in the garage.. Just kinda scared to turn the printer on and break something. Still need to familiarize myself with the slicer, too. Anyway, here's some old-school scratchbuilding for now... a little progress on the electronics package. Checking out the last update it was last year. Has it been that long? Don't want this to become a decade-long build but it looks like it's turning out to be that way -- just 3 years to go and it will be exactly that. And 3 years is nothing. I actually feel like I just sat in a time machine in 2014, spun the dish, and fast-forwarded through the years to here. The Antenna is a strand of brush hair from a broom -- bought new for modeling purposes, so that's a clean strand you're looking at : ) I carefully examined the broom in the store and measured the thickness of the brush hairs with a caliper and found them suitable for 1/18 LLRV purposes : ) Actually I should have used a guitar string -- had a bunch I now regret throwing away. Edited April 16, 2021 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted July 2, 2021 Author Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) I initially tried to extract just the star joints so I could use styrene or aluminum rods to build the trusses but it turned out too complicated for me to create all the various planes for cutting. So I thought I'd just cut up the whole frame into simpler and bigger symmetrical sections for printing. Some sections look like they could stand up on their own structurally, but where long rods will be jutting out with nothing to hold the ends together I'll try putting temporary rafts. Not sure how I'll be cutting up the gimbal frame but I'll cross the bridge when I get there. Edited July 2, 2021 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted July 3, 2021 Share Posted July 3, 2021 (edited) Hi Joe, I know how difficult it is to pick up where one left off after a long time ... That always takes a lot of overcoming and effort, which is why I take my hat off. So good luck and lots of fun. Edited July 18, 2021 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted September 18, 2021 Author Share Posted September 18, 2021 Hi Manfred, thanks! Test prints! Some tubes sides are pock-marked with support rod ends. They're sandable but I wouldn't dare paint these trusses in metallic colors. Alclad paints show every little flaw on the surface. But for 3D prototypes they're nice enough to display unpainted for what they are. Still, there should be some orientation that will eliminate the need for a lot of supports and make for smoother tubes. I think I'll finally get to see a miniature LLRV on my desk, however rough-hewn : ) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 18, 2021 Share Posted September 18, 2021 Hey Joe, wow, that's what I call a milestone, you have successfully printed your first 3D prints, congratulations! Now you will see that it gets easier step-by-step and that it will become more and more fun. I am happy for you that your courage has overcome respect. How thick are the thick and thin struts? Keep on printing! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
johnlove_mk_II Posted September 20, 2021 Share Posted September 20, 2021 Very nice! Can't wait to see more. I bet the support structures where a sight to see. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Aren't you happy I said buy a resin printer. Now you too can enjoy removing supports 😉 Looks great Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Aussie-Pete Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 How are you removing supports? I use side cutters and a needle file to take away support marks Best to leave some support to file away than leave holes. Can it be printed so the supports are on the underside to reduce visibility? Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted September 21, 2021 Author Share Posted September 21, 2021 (edited) Hi John, thanks! Yes they were -- until I started removing them : ) Thanks, Manfred, the tubes on the legs come at various diameters from 1.4mm to 4.6 on the shock body. Hi Pete, only the printer part, lol. You can see how I removed the supports like a kid would tear off gift wrappers : ) Tamiya seems to have an ingenius way of using the least number of sprue gates on kit parts and hiding them. I realize you can't do that with 3D printing and removing supports is a nightmare everyone has to deal with. The orientation I used was best in recreating the shock absorbers and bolts well but will try to print this again upside down. The trusses come at various angles, though, and printing it one way necessitates supports where they're least wanted. It seems LLRVs aren't printer-friendly, haha. I may need to start breaking it down into different parts -- but it will be more work if I wanted to print them in other scales. I tried searching online for similar truss structures to see what kind of printing problems they had. Found this guy who printed a Mercury capsule and tower and I see he had the same issues with having a lot of supports to remove: https://www.tested.com/making/how-tos/534215-bits-atoms-3d-printing-mercury-capsule-miniature/ My other problem is these tent ridges. I tried filing/sanding them down but they just wouldn't smoothen out properly. I'm gonna try putting a low thin wall where supports can maybe attach to that I can maybe score/break off later -- that might make sanding easier than dealing with tents. Edited September 21, 2021 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 21, 2021 Share Posted September 21, 2021 Hi Joe, as one can see, with Shapeways' 3D prints one has the unsightly problem with removing the residual support wax, and now you have a similar tricky problem with removing the support struts. But you will find a solution, hang in my friend, you will solve the problem, I'm sure! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
bubble Posted September 22, 2021 Share Posted September 22, 2021 18 hours ago, crackerjazz said: My other problem is these tent ridges. I tried filing/sanding them down but they just wouldn't smoothen out properly. I'm gonna try putting a low thin wall where supports can maybe attach to that I can maybe score/break off later -- that might make sanding easier than dealing with tents. uhmm , i using a old rotating toothbrush , i change the top head place a little piece round sanding paper , fine sanding paper , works perfeckt and you need not much press on the thin parts , it,s a idea Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 (edited) I had already seen the same idea somewhere a long time ago, which I liked immediately and had tried it out, as described here by bubble. Bristles removed, double-sided tape stuck on and fine sandpaper (500), done! Very suitable for larger and accessible parts, but SW's filigree Gearbox Combos would be too delicate for this method. But for your struts, Joe, it should work if you're careful enough. Edited September 23, 2021 by spaceman Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted September 23, 2021 Author Share Posted September 23, 2021 Great idea thanks, Bubble. Thanks Manfred will look into it. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
niart17 Posted September 23, 2021 Share Posted September 23, 2021 Looking GREAT! And I totally understand the "tent" dilemma. I've been trying to work on better ways to print to avoid this and it's an on going battle. Often what works for eliminating pits and zits, as I call them, on detail areas makes the prints not print well and vice-versa. It's the biggest set-back in 3D printing becoming a mainstream replacement for traditional in my opinion. We'll get there. Keep up the incredible work and keep us posted. Bill Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted October 3, 2021 Author Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) Thanks, Bill! I'm looking forward to the day when we see ads for Elegoo or Anycubic support-free 3D printers : ) The sanding tool did help a little. It caught my eye at the LHS so I picked it up along with a polisher. I wish I could read Japanese. But the drawings were helpful enough. I'm also thinking about cutting up a styrene pipe in half and gluing a piece of sandpaper along the inner wall so it can hug the rods and maybe use that. I may have to reprint the legs, though. I realized it might actually be better to print the whole quarter leg. I've also packed more detail into it, with some additional thinner struts and various other stiffener plates that I was planning to scratchbuild after printing. After seeing what's possible and seeing that the printer has no problem printing plates as thin as 0.2mm, I might as well include all of them. I've thickened them to 0.4mm on purpose, however, so they can still print in 1/32. Got rid of the top rods... And set the tanks aside.... And cut off a whole leg for 3D-printing. Initially I was thinking about separating this so I can mount the legs on the scratch-built gimbal frame. Then I though maybe I might as well include the portion of the frame as well and print a new one. Estimating the build volume.. I may need to print the shocks separately. Edited October 3, 2021 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted April 15, 2022 Author Share Posted April 15, 2022 (edited) Some parts are really thin because I modelled them in actual sheet metal size which just wouldn't work for the printer when scaled down so I started hollowing out and thickening parts to printer-friendly dimensions. This is in 1/32 -- hopefully easier to print than the oversized 1/18. I've also started deleting parts that won't really be seen. Edited April 15, 2022 by crackerjazz Quote Link to post Share on other sites
spaceman Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Hey Joe, I'm always amazed by your 3D modeling skills, simply awesome, looks like a Leonardo da Vinci artwork. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 It's wonderful to see you still plugging away at this CJ ... but re-doing the engine? That scratch built version was lovely ... I really hope to see this model finished whether all 3D printed or a combo of hand-built skill and 3D. December marks the end of the Apollo program 50 years ago ... if you need another deadline! And Have a Happy Easter Joe! It's gonna be cold with maybe a dusting of snow in these parts, but enjoy it anyway1 Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
crackerjazz Posted April 16, 2022 Author Share Posted April 16, 2022 Happy Easter, guys! Thanks, Manfred : ) Hi Pete, December will be a nice doable target : ) Regarding the 1/18 engine I made a mess of it trying to paint it. I handbrushed the Stynylrez primer out of laziness and the paintjob was awful. I read Stynylrez, even though it's thick, will level itself off. Nope, it created ugly webbing between the bolts. I waited for it to thin down but it stayed that way until it dried. I'll try printing one in 1/32 for now. It'll be fun to compare the engine parts in different scales and hopefully Mr. Elegoo will give me some needed help to reach the new target date. Speaking of 3D printers, did you ever think of giving it a try, Pete? I'm giving away my older Elegoo and it's yours if you like. I can bring it over and show you how to use it if you've ever thought about experimenting a little. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
K2Pete Posted April 16, 2022 Share Posted April 16, 2022 Gee, that was a quick reply CJ! And I have not given ANY thought to working in 3D. I DO envy the stills you guys post of your work and I used to work as a Technical Illustrator doing exploded views and cutaway views and, years ago, tried utilizing those hand-drawn skills to 3D and ... hated it! It required a completely different way of thinking. I much prefer doing it the old-fashioned way, Ellipse templates, Pen and Ink, Drafting boards and Mylar or Vellum. And even now, I teach Painting using traditional tools, like Watercolour, Brushes and Paper ... you youngsters can have the new-fangled 3D computer gizmos ... ;- D I enjoy building an assembly by hand ... and holding it in my hand ... rather than looking at it on a screen ... But I do thank you Joe, for the offer ... ! Pete Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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