Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) Every single copy of USAF T.O. 1-1-4 that I've seen, going all the way back into the early 1960s (those that have the F-104 in them) specify the same sizes for the "USAF" titles on the wings. Every one says the letters are to be 30" high. The national insignia opposite is also a 30" (nominal) diameter. Nothing too unusual there. Most aircraft use the same measurements for both. That's great. Makes life easy for decal artists, right? Just draw the letters, scale it out, and you're good to go. Wellll..... not really. Even if you were to squeeze the letters really close together, a 30" tall title simply does not fit on an F-104 wing. My drawing is to scale (yadda, yadda, yadda). It just don't go! As The Gipper once said, Доверяй, но проверяй! Edited June 1, 2014 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Moose135 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 They're always 30" except when they're not... B) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Exhausted Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Probably wouldn't matter too much here, but the wing has an adhedral while the text is at 0 degrees. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wege Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) Not if the letters have the 'height' component added it. I can see the thought though..... and I thought that too.. :D/> But the 'height' does not change even if the apparent width does. Gotta love regs... USAF, RLM, etc.. :D/> Edit- Jennings -so the actual or apparent 'height' for those letters is all 25in then? If so, how was that standardised between the units or was it via Lockheed? Edited June 1, 2014 by Wege Quote Link to post Share on other sites
aim9xray Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Jennings, are you compensating for the foreshortening effect of the wing on your base art caused by the 10 degree anhedral of the wing? Please crosscheck against the Wikipedia image of the 83rd FIS F-104A in Taiwan... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I am looking at a photo of the top of an F-104 in a book. the two arms of the F at the end of USAF hit right where your bottom arm on your F hit, both sliced off evenly at the tip tank/wing edge line. That means that if your 30" tall font is slightly smaller than the OD of the Blue circle on your 30" Insignia, you have drawn it perfectly according to the TO. (I am sure that Jennings knows this, but for others,,,,,a 30" Font is not the same height as a 30" Insignia.) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Finn Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Here are some F-104 pics: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/3f392cb72cbc4e57_large http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/40b0d162b4dab625_large http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/8659a3fda4a474b4_large Jari Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Wege Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Aw man.. More knowledge to learn. Thanks Rex. That is what I love about this place.. even if I open my big trap (and something silly comes out) I can still learn something.... like not open my big trap! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 Jennings, are you compensating for the foreshortening effect of the wing on your base art caused by the 10 degree anhedral of the wing? Please crosscheck against the Wikipedia image of the 83rd FIS F-104A in Taiwan... The anhedral doesn't matter. You simply cannot fit 30" high letters on an F-104 wing. I'll send you a file and let you try to fit them on your model's wing. You can't. Believe me, I've been doing this for approaching 30 years now. They won't fit. The tech order is wrong. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Bigasshammm Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Until I see proper scale 30" decals made and attempted on the most accurate scale wing looking at a 2dimensional drawing proves nothing. You need to make another drawing of the actual size of the wing not just the overhead profile. The anhedral does matter in regards to the drawing in your op. The wing is larger than what is seen from directly overhead and thus the lettering would be slightly smaller since it's at an angle. Basically 3dimrenionally recreate the wing accurately. Then try the script again. Only way to do it properly would be in 3-dimensions on a program. You may be right but basing your claims on 2-d images will never get anyone to listen to you. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) You may be right but basing your claims on 2-d images will never get anyone to listen to you. Here you go. You simply cannot fit a 30" tall set of "USAF" lettering, whether it's 1/72 scale, 1/48 scale, 1/32 scale, or 1/1 scale on an F-104 wing the way photos show the lettering fitting, whether the wing is 1/72 scale, 1/48 scale, 1/32 scale, or 1/1 scale. This is not my opinion, it is scientific fact. See here: http://www.arcforums.com/forums/air/index.php?showtopic=275797 Even if you account for the apparent distortion of an orthographic projection caused by the 10 degree anhedral of the wing, the side-to-side difference is only 1.54% (using the formula for determining the lengths of the sides of a right triangle A2 + B2 = C2). This is mathematical fact, not my opinion. Edited June 1, 2014 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
janman Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I just love stuff like this. I won't be making an F-104 in a foreseeable future, but discussions like this are always interesting to read. ☺ Some may called it rivet counting but for me this is the essence of model making: to make things as accurate as realistically possible. Back to the topic! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martin_sam_2000 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I wonder if it was one of those times when the guy on the floor went to his supervisor and said '30" don't fit on the wing" and the super said, 'Then use the 25" you moron'. but nobody bothered to tell the guys at the desk that 30" won't fit so it was never corrected. Not the first time that scenario has played out in the Federal Government (any Government..not picking the U.S.). And then the floor guy gets reprimanded for not following procedures when the General inspects and finds out the lettering is wrong!!! Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 Yep, pretty much. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 just looked at the 1964 TO it says "20 inches" for the top right and bottom left USAF lettering, in 15044 colors Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Looks like 30" to me... Curt add 3" for the tape = 95" wing Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 Interesting!! The reason this came up is that I'm working with decal art that was done over a decade ago (by someone else), rescaling it. I know for a 100% positive fact that my drawings match the Hasegawa 1/48 F-104 kits (within a gnat's eyelash). I've done item for item measurements on the wings, and mine are within a fraction of a millimeter in every dimension. And yet, properly scaled 30" "USAF" titles simply *will not* fit on them. Customers have complained about this since the sheet came out in 2004. They're just too big, and they *are* 30 scale inches tall, drawn to the USAF standard of 1:4:6 proportions and character spacing. Netz - do me a favor. Measure the length of the entire leading edge, from root to tip. Same for the trailing edge, and the end of the wing (the chord length). Let's see if something's amiss with the kit. I wish I had a good explanation, but all I know is what I know. I'd love to get to the bottom of this. :) J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Netz Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Sure, shoot me a reminder at the end of the week, and i'll get it next weekend. Curt Quote Link to post Share on other sites
martin_sam_2000 Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Interesting!! The reason this came up is that I'm working with decal art that was done over a decade ago (by someone else), rescaling it. I know for a 100% positive fact that my drawings match the Hasegawa 1/48 F-104 kits (within a gnat's eyelash). I've done item for item measurements on the wings, and mine are within a fraction of a millimeter in every dimension. And yet, properly scaled 30" "USAF" titles simply *will not* fit on them. Customers have complained about this since the sheet came out in 2004. They're just too big, and they *are* 30 scale inches tall, drawn to the USAF standard of 1:4:6 proportions and character spacing. Netz - do me a favor. Measure the length of the entire leading edge, from root to tip. Same for the trailing edge, and the end of the wing (the chord length). Let's see if something's amiss with the kit. I wish I had a good explanation, but all I know is what I know. I'd love to get to the bottom of this. :)/> J Just quickly comparing your profile vs the picture, it looks the the "U" overlaps the wing-fuselage trim fairing in the picture while you have it starting more or less outboard of this fairing. If you take your skewed lettering to compensate for the angle, and shift it a fraction to your left, it may line up and match the picture. any of that make any sense?? in my disturbed mind it sounds right...but I have been burned before..lol Sean Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Rex Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) I apologize, I just looked at the drawing too quick, and got the 20" from the F-5 drawing, not the correct 30" from the F-104 drawing here is the photo I was talking about, maybe you can compare the 33.75" (not 37", sorry*) blue OD to the USAF Font and tell if it is a 30" Font as specified (*blue OD is 2x 1/8 Radius added to 2x Radius) Edited June 2, 2014 by Rex Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 I'm still scratching my head here. Does anyone have access to an F-104 that still has the tanks on the wing tips? If so and you'd be willing to help out with a couple of measurements and/or photos, please shoot me an email. jrheilig01 at gmail.com I'd love to be able to get to the bottom of this. Thanks! J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 So, here's a good example of "examine your assumptions" folks. It is a true fact that if you follow the specifications for USAF style 45 degree corner lettering (in short: basic proportions of 1:4:6 for stroke width, letter width, letter height, and you use kerning {letter spacing} of 1 stroke width), you cannot get 30" high "USAF" lettering to fit on an F-104 wing, *especially* if the tip tanks are fitted. The tanks occupy the outboard approximately 7" of the wing tip (almost touching the outboard edges of the leading edge flap and the aileron). If you plop a 30" high "USAF" on there that follows the usual specs for this type of lettering, it just won't go. However, if you ignore that and squeeze the letters together (totally non-spec), they will *just* fit. It's very difficult to find period photos (not museum repaints) where you can clearly see the titles on the wings, but those I have found sometimes seem to support this. Others seem to support that at least some aircraft used smaller (probably 25") lettering, using the correct letter spacing. As I said, the decal I'm working with has had complaints for a decade now because the correctly sized 30 scale inch titles simply don't fit on the model. I've re-measured the model (the Hasegawa 1/48 kit), and it is essentially correct to scale. Something had to give! Thanks for the assist with photos! Problem (sort of) solved :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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