Jennings Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I've seen loads of profiles (no two of which agree on details), but never a photo. Anyone know of one (and yes I've used Oogle) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Griffin Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 The black and red chekerred cowls are eye catching, but all probably a myth coming from bad interpretation of poor colors and artifacts on a color film…should be Black and white. There's a still from that film and a complete analyze here You can also find a B&W version in this book ( P 173: more can be seen on the aircraft but not so much, always too blurry…) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 Interesting. There are numerous (well researched?) decals that show both red and yellow in addition to white and black checkers. I've eyed the Mombeek books for years. I may have to cave and buy the 1943 volume :) Tks! J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) "Definitely white", and yet... Tell me these checkers are black and white? I'm the first one to say that you can't make absolute pronunciations about specific colors based on black & white images, but there is no *way* these checkers are white. Just not possible. If they are, then the spinner is whiter than white by a considerable margin. Edited June 2, 2014 by Jennings Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jester292 Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 I would even argue that the checkers could be Yellow. RLM 04. Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Leo Etgen Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Hi guys I should mention that Claes Sundin who is one of the most respected profile artists that focuses on Luftwaffe subjects has depicted this particular aircraft with a black and red checkered engine cowl as well as a yellow and red spinner in More Luftwaffe Fighter Aircraft in Profile. I doubt he would not have done so without good evidence that this was the case through careful research and photo analysis. Horrido! Leo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Black and white checkers. I have an article fom Peter Rodeike somewhere. Another myth that won't die. Vedran Edit: Jennings, the Peter Rodeike Article in Jet&Prop 4/03 (Aug/Sep 2003) has both photos in colour. Scan attached for ressearch purposes only. Edited June 3, 2014 by dragonlance Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I've seen that. The two don't jive with one another. Frankly, the photos I posted are much clearer than the ones you posted. That bottom one in particular is so washed out and color shifted I'd be hard pressed to say anything about it other than that it sort of looks like it might be an Fw190. Look at the known white color in the Balkenkreuz then compare to the "white" checkers. Same color? Not to me. In the one I posted there is really no way to interpret the checkers as white. There are tones that are *much* lighter on the same aircraft at the same time. How do you account for the fact that the checks are so much darker than the RLM 76 gear door, and the yellow lower cowling? I can't ... This is one of those things that we will probably never know for sure. To my way of thinking, everyone who has made a pronouncement that they were *always* white is biased because that's what someone who was there at the time is purported to have said. That may in fact be what they said, but it is a scientific fact (PhD dissertations have been written on it) that the human memory is one of the least reliable things there is, especially on matters of color (PhD dissertations have been written about color memory). I'm going to paint mine red and double dog-dare anyone to absolutely prove me wrong. :) J Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Jennings I frankly don't care as I will never build this 190 but if I look at the pictures you posted I would go with black and yellow checks, especially if the underside of the cowling is yellow as the squares and the underside match well. Look also at the second aircraft that is supposed to have a yellow red spinner with yellow to the front and this yellow seems to match some of the squares while the others look darker but also appear to be in a shadow or stain or something (look at the rearmost square that appears to be mostly the same as the spinner but has a darker upper right corner, it wasn't two colours so we are dealing with a shadow or something). All in all yellow makes a lot more sense than red, especially if they already had the yellow paint on the underside. Just my two cents worth as I don't really care about the plane but would like to help. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 The checkers and the lower cowling of the nearest aircraft (in the photo I posted) *seem* to match, but what about the further one? There's clearly a lighter tone on the lower cowling than the checkers. Historically, red makes more sense, since the specified color for the 2nd Staffel of a Gruppe was red. We'll never ever know for certain though... Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 That was my point Jennings. On the far plane the squares that aren't in shadow or stained or whatever match the bottom yellow colour too so if I had to guess, yellow not red makes the most sense from the pictures. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 We are discussing a specific unit(s) within a specific timeframe and using a specific aircraft (the Y variant of FW-190A-4/-5/-6/-7). The progression of hi-wis recognition/assembly markings goes from white cowls through black/white checkers to black/white stripes. This is confirmed by available documents, photos and interviews with pilots and ground crew. The colour photos above are suspect, the ground is red and sky almost white in my copy of the Jet&Prop magazine. RLM74 looks like olive green. Now, everyone can paint their model howewer they like, but IMO, it's like painting the "Lou IV" not in blue, but in red. Becaouse you can. Vedran Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 (edited) Vedran You talk of photos to back you up but your'e the one that posted the crappy colour shots while Jennings and I are trying to use the black and white shots he posted. If I had to go by the shots you posted I would not say white there either. Frankly they look like they stripped the upper cowlings and put on black squares and left stained natural metal elsewhere.Knowing the short supplies of paint the Germans had at the time, this makes even more sense. Regardless, there are no pictures posted here that support white squares. I don't build German aircraft and don't care one way or the other but none of the pictures posted here support the squares being white. Edited June 3, 2014 by RCAFFAN Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 So Vedran, which "experts" do we trust? Yours or the other guy's? Does one group of "experts" have more expertise than the other? Based on what? In medicine we practice based on evidence. Some evidence is better than other evidence, and in this case, the best we can do is go with what the evidence appears to show. Not remotely worth getting anyone's knickers twisted. I'm going to paint my "Black 3" in pink (RLM 99), dark mauve (RLM 92), and light chartreuse (RLM 93), and I'm painting the cowling black and red. And it'll make me happy :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
dragonlance Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Well, Jennings, I trust Peter Rodeike :D @RCAFFAN - well, I'm not about to post a scan of the whole article. But it has plenty of photos showing white and black/white. The colour photos I posted are the only ones that even remotely support anything other. BTW the article is about yellow/black checkers vs white/black checkers. No one in Germany even remotely considers the red/black combination... Vedran Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 I trust the photos I posted. I have no doubt that JG1 had some Fw190s with black and white checkers. I'm not arguing that. But not the two aircraft from 2 Gruppe in the photo I posted on the day the photo was taken. I ran into a B-17 waist gunner one time who was absolutely, positively convinced that the Luftwaffe had stripped Fw190s down to bare metal and painted US stars on them. He knew, because he'd shot one down. So much for eyewitness infallibility. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
RCAFFAN Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Vedran: I have no attachment to this discussion at all and am just commenting on the pictures Jennings posted. If the squares are white then what colour is the spinner on the front aircraft. Believe me I have found lots of "exceptions to the rule" over the years so I guess I fall in the Yellow /Black group in the case of that particular picture but it matters not to me and we both agree they are not red. I'm going back to my Spitfire Prototype model now where everyone agrees on what colour it was "French Blue Grey", but no one agrees what colour that was Cheers Bruce Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Everybody knows it was Supermarine seaplane blue-grey! No, wait, it was Rolls-Royce blue-grey! No, wait, it was the same color as found behind the rear quarter window panels on P-40s! Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Leo Etgen Posted June 3, 2014 Share Posted June 3, 2014 Hi guys Actually I have the impression that I./JG 1 was using white (Fw 190 A-4 "White 8" W.Nr. 611), checkered (Fw 190 A-4 "White 4" W.Nr. 601) and striped (Fw 190 A-4 "Black <I" W.Nr. 581) engine cowls at around the same time period in the early summer of 1943. Regarding the checkered engine cowls on one hand we have August Michalski who was a mechanic with 1./JG 1 at the time and Falk Boersch who is the nephew of Feldwebel Bernhard Kunze both stating that the only color combination used was black and white while on the other hand the black and white photograph posted here almost certainly shows the checkers to be some color other then white. Considering how unreliable the memories of witnesses can be, especially considering the length of time involved, I personally would be inclined to go with what the photographic evidence would seem to suggest. Horrido! Leo Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Yep. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Cool Hand Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Here is what is fact. These 190A's belonged to First Gruppe. (I/Jg 1). 1st Staffel (1./Jg1) used white checkers that corresponded with white side numbers. 3rd Staffel (3./Jg1) used yellow in the same manner. 2nd Staffel's color (as determined by RLM standards) would either be black or red. Since the theme of the entire First Gruppe is a pattern of black checkers set against the staffel color, it is safe to assume that 2nd Staffel used red. This is further supported by the photos that Jennings provided, where the checkers on the background 190 are a darker shade than the yellow theater marking of the lower cowling. Jennings, perhaps the easiest thing for you to do (assuming that you are indeed designing a set of decals) is just make the black checker pattern and let the modeler paint the color of their choice. By the way, the black and white scheme was adopted later by all of First Grupppe around the time the A-7 model was introduced. Although I have seen one photo of an A-6. This change coincided with the adoption of the red tail band for Reich defense duty. Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 4, 2014 Author Share Posted June 4, 2014 Just to be clear - I'm not doing decals for these airplanes. They've been done numerous times before. I'm asking for an Fw190A-6 I'm building. And I'm painting the cowling red with a yellow lower section and applying black decal checkers on it. :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jester292 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 I'd love to see a picture of that when it's completed! An in-progress shot? Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
Jennings Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 Haven't even started yet :) Quote Link to post Share on other sites
jester292 Posted June 6, 2014 Share Posted June 6, 2014 Nuts. Which kit? Hasegawa? Aaron Quote Link to post Share on other sites
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